I don't want this to be political, but...

[SP33Demon]

The DNC convention was a total dumpster fire because of the email leaks. Bernie supporters have a right to be mad, there was hard evidence that their man was disenfranchised by a rigged candidate and hillary didn't even pick a VP that they thought represented them (he's pro-TPP + bad record on the environment). Bernie supporters aren't getting arrested in Philly just for the hell of it, they are angry at the system and have a right to be. To mock them shows you're either a hillary or DNC supporter.

 

[SP33Demon]

It enables multinationals to sue countries (that signed TPP) they are not able to pillage.

This^

 

[IronWing]

Which is helpful to the US businesses because in general it is the US intellectual property that is being protected; even though the voters are in the improper view that it will harm US businesses and employees. The voters are willing to cut off their heads to spite their noses.

I'm not arguing for high drug prices. I'm just pointing out that the people have no idea what they are against.

People opposed to free trade deals are being very rational and acting in self interest. If I don't hold IP but I do build things then free trade is a terrible deal for me. Current US trade policy favors a rent based economy over a production based economy and rent based economies result in wealth concentration and general impoverishment of workers. Trading away manufacturing protection for IP protection, while hugely beneficial for IP holders, is a terrible deal for most American workers.

 

[Sonikku]

I wanted to throw a dictionary at the forehead of this crying 20-something Bernie supporter on TV saying "this is not democracy" because Bernie lost the nomination. Just exactly what do these entitled buffoons think democracy means? I don't think she even know how it's supposed to work.

Psst, democracy doesn't mean "I didn't get things the way I wanted, waaahhhhhhh!", regardless of how hard you're trying to make it to be.

I'm not so much upset that Bernie did not win as much as I am upset that between "Super" delegates, coin flips and a democratic convention that conspired against him ensured he never had a fair chance. These things undermine our democracy. And if you can't appreciate why that makes us upset, then line up to vote for Hillary or Trump like a good shill. Not questioning the rigged system makes it easier to keep you in line.

 

[NikolaeVarius]

I'm not so much upset that Bernie did not win as much as I am upset that between "Super" delegates, coin flips and a democratic convention that conspired against him ensured he never had a fair chance. These things undermine our democracy. And if you can't appreciate why that makes us upset, then line up to vote for Hillary or Trump like a good shill. Not questioning the rigged system makes it easier to keep you in line.

Clinton won against Bernie in every single possible metric including popular votes

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/democratic_vote_count.html
Clinton won the popular vote count by 3.8 million votes, so it's not like it would be undemocratic for the delegates to vote for Clinton.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ald-trump-bernie-sanders-wouldnt-have-won-ev/

And even with every single different way to mess with the math of how delegates are allocated, Sanders could never have won.

Also in terms of Democracy, the parties aren't REQUIRED to have any of these nomination processes, they're a fairly recent process, so it's ridiculous to claim that its undemocratic.

 

[dullard]

People opposed to free trade deals are being very rational and acting in self interest. If I don't hold IP but I do build things then free trade is a terrible deal for me. Current US trade policy favors a rent based economy over a production based economy and rent based economies result in wealth concentration and general impoverishment of workers. Trading away manufacturing protection for IP protection, while hugely beneficial for IP holders, is a terrible deal for most American workers.

Again, the TPP has almost nothing practical to do with free trade, since we already had free trade or nearly free trade with most significant countries in the TPP. The TPP is trading IP protection, worker protection, etc, with very little to do with manufacturing protection.

I could see people acting in self interest over the TTIP which is a strong free trade agreement with loss of manufacturing protections. But that is a pretty weak argument against the TPP. Don't confuse the two.

 

[SP33Demon]

Clinton won against Bernie in every single possible metric including popular votes

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/democratic_vote_count.html
Clinton won the popular vote count by 3.8 million votes, so it's not like it would be undemocratic for the delegates to vote for Clinton.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ald-trump-bernie-sanders-wouldnt-have-won-ev/

And even with every single different way to mess with the math of how delegates are allocated, Sanders could never have won.

Also in terms of Democracy, the parties aren't REQUIRED to have any of these nomination processes, they're a fairly recent process, so it's ridiculous to claim that its undemocratic.

Wrong, if all of the superdelegates for Clinton switched to Bernie, Bernie wins.
From your link:

That math checks out on paper, but it is nonsensical in reality. The post offers no rationale for why the superdelegates should flip their votes against the popular vote (Clinton won 3.8 million more than Sanders).

So the math checks out on paper, but then the article tries to make excuses as to why it would never happen. It misses the entire point, that the fact that the system of superdelegates exists in the first place is the problem. Technically if the Supers backed Bernie, he wins. The math checks out on paper. See the problem now? Supers shouldn't even exist.

As far as popular vote for hillary, that is because you are adding in all the states that voted after hillary was crowned. Voting was neck and neck for most of the race when it mattered.

 

[SSSnail]

Wrong, if all of the superdelegates for Clinton switched to Bernie, Bernie wins.
From your link:


So the math checks out on paper, but then the article tries to make excuses as to why it would never happen. It misses the entire point, that the fact that the system of superdelegates exists in the first place is the problem. Technically if the Supers backed Bernie, he wins. The math checks out on paper. See the problem now? Supers shouldn't even exist.

So, against the will of the voting majority?

As far as popular vote for hillary, that is because you are adding in all the states that voted after hillary was crowned. Voting was neck and neck for most of the race when it mattered.

Not quite, he won some states where Hilary didn't bother with, but overall, it's never been close.

 

[Drako]

So, against the will of the voting majority?

Apparently you don't know how superdelegates work.

 

[zinfamous]

Wrong, if all of the superdelegates for Clinton switched to Bernie, Bernie wins.
From your link:

what a nonsense argument. Why would that ever happen, because you declare that it should...for reasons?

 

[poofyhairguy]

The DNC convention was a total dumpster fire because of the email leaks. Bernie supporters have a right to be mad, there was hard evidence that their man was disenfranchised by a rigged candidate and hillary didn't even pick a VP that they thought represented them (he's pro-TPP + bad record on the environment). Bernie supporters aren't getting arrested in Philly just for the hell of it, they are angry at the system and have a right to be.

They are late to the party though. The system has been set up this way from the start.

 

[Sonikku]

It was wrong and has needed to be changed since the start.

 

[SP33Demon]

what a nonsense argument. Why would that ever happen, because you declare that it should...for reasons?

Maybe because Bernie has held a double digit 10+ point polling lead over Trump consistently:
http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-general-election-trump-vs-sanders

Whereas hillary's June 7 point lead just got vaporized into a Trump +1.1? Hindsight is 20/20 but Bernie was/is a much stronger candidate against Trump because he exposes Trump's weaknesses more.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Sanders fans live in a Steve Jobs RDF where they think the mainstream does not see them as being just as much loony extremists as the Republican far-right crazies are.

Caucuses are a bubble world of hardcore party members not general voters. General voters chose Clinton.

Clinton is a centrist. She might not win against the used-car salesman, but a far-left extremist had even less of a chance not more.

 

[zinfamous]

Maybe because Bernie has held a double digit 10+ point polling lead over Trump consistently:
http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-general-election-trump-vs-sanders

Whereas hillary's June 7 point lead just got vaporized into a Trump +1.1? Hindsight is 20/20 but Bernie was/is a much stronger candidate against Trump because he exposes Trump's weaknesses more.

Are you honestly putting those only-ever-hypothetical situational numbers of Bernie vs Trump as some reflection of reality? You know that Bernie had a more even-to-zero chance against Trump.

Dear Lord: please help Sp33dy for he is challenged. ()

 

[Imp]

Hillary fully supports TPP while Trump says he does not. I'd probably vote Trump on the odd chance he may hold his word and abolish it. Though as a business rich guy it seems odd he'd be against it as the TPP is pretty much designed for people like him. The election is pretty much having to pick between the lesser of two super villains though. I don't get why more people arn't voting for Sanders, he's actually the non evil one out of the 3.

Okay, but on other stuff like healthcare? Bernie wants it socialized. Hillary would build on Obummercare. Trump wants to abolish Obummercare?

Hillary: I love Obummer.
Bernie: I love Obummer more.
Trump: Obummer is the devil and not American.

Bernie/Hillary both "lefties" and progressives in the Democratic party. Trump so far out there even Republicans don't really want him.

Bernie seems nice but I think he over promises -- and I strongly preferred Obummer over Hillary last time around. There's no way the Senate or Congress would allow all his promises of free shit to happen, no matter which party has the majority.

 

[dullard]

Maybe because Bernie has held a double digit 10+ point polling lead over Trump consistently because no one really challenged him or attacked him:
http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-general-election-trump-vs-sanders

Whereas hillary's June 7 point lead just got vaporized into a Trump +1.1? Hindsight is 20/20 but Bernie was/is a much stronger candidate against Trump because he exposes Trump's weaknesses more.

Corrected it for you. Also, please don't make a fool of yourself by using poll numbers during or immediately after conventions. Convention bounces are very ephemeral. Come back in 3 weeks and you might have a point (assuming Clinton is losing in the polls then and loses the election).

 

[Thump553]

I'm not so much upset that Bernie did not win as much as I am upset that between "Super" delegates, coin flips and a democratic convention that conspired against him ensured he never had a fair chance. These things undermine our democracy. And if you can't appreciate why that makes us upset, then line up to vote for Hillary or Trump like a good shill. Not questioning the rigged system makes it easier to keep you in line.

Did you watch the GOP roll call last week? I did. Over and over the chair overruled and changed the reported votes "pursuant to the rules of the GOP." Apparently the GOP had a rule (apparently only applicable in certain states as well) that only votes that could be counted had to be for a candidate whose name was in nomination. For example, Washington, DC-17 delegates, split roughly equally between Kaisch and Marco as per the primary results (these were bound delegates). The chair changed the vote to 17-0 for Trump, who didn't win a single delegate.

 

[pete6032]

I wanted to throw a dictionary at the forehead of this crying 20-something Bernie supporter on TV saying "this is not democracy" because Bernie lost the nomination. Just exactly what do these entitled buffoons think democracy means? I don't think she even know how it's supposed to work.

Psst, democracy doesn't mean "I didn't get things the way I wanted, waaahhhhhhh!", regardless of how hard you're trying to make it to be.

They are angry because the chairman of the Democratic National Committee interfered with the primary process in order to help Clinton. That seems like a legitimate gripe to me, regardless of what mine or your political persuasions are.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Wrong, she is now against it in its current form, similar to Trump who said he'd have the greatest businesses minds renegotiate it. One can question the sincerity but currently she is not for it right now.
For the record I voted for Bernie but from last night it tough not to think that this was the first "No" some of the Bernie supporters heard about something they're passionate about in their lives.

That's the issue with Hilary, one day she's for something, the next day she's not. Can she really be trusted with anything? Not that Trump is any better... What a mess lol. Just glad our election here is done and we have a decent leader now.

 

[Red Squirrel]

As a side note, I got vacationed for posting P&N stuff in OT. Why is it that some P&N content is allowed and some is not?

 

[flexy]

Many Sanders supporters are pissed AND RIGHTFULLY SO.

The fucking DNC is not "The Clinton Campaign". And now everyone expects people to smile and be all fine with it, like nothing happened..aka: "Accept the sham!" I wanted to vomit watching this "fake vote" yesterday on TV with everyone "soooo happy" - like the brainwashed idiots they are.

 

[bononos]

Many Sanders supporters are pissed AND RIGHTFULLY SO.

The fucking DNC is not "The Clinton Campaign". And now everyone expects people to smile and be all fine with it, like nothing happened..aka: "Accept the sham!" I wanted to vomit watching this "fake vote" yesterday on TV with everyone "soooo happy" - like the brainwashed idiots they are.

Yeah the OP needs a few lessons in American democracy. The system was rigged for Clinton through the superdelegate nonsense and Bernie had to fight to change the rules. The DNC locked out Bernie's delegates in committee hearings to "discuss" the superdelegate issue. But I think the threat of creating a messy scene during Clinton's nomination forced them to compromise. Lotta fools didn't realise how Bernie Sander's supporters made the nomination more democratic for the future.
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/...-democratic-superdelegates-and-caucus-process

 

[z1ggy]

I wanted to throw a dictionary at the forehead of this crying 20-something Bernie supporter on TV saying "this is not democracy" because Bernie lost the nomination. Just exactly what do these entitled buffoons think democracy means? I don't think she even know how it's supposed to work.

Psst, democracy doesn't mean "I didn't get things the way I wanted, waaahhhhhhh!", regardless of how hard you're trying to make it to be.

Like others have said, because the election as many have claimed, has been "rigged" or at the very least, extremely pro Hillary from the start. They feel Bernie did not have a fair chance.

 

[Ruptga]

Like others have said, because the election as many have claimed, has been "rigged" or at the very least, extremely pro Hillary from the start. They feel Bernie did not have a fair chance.

Exactly, he might have lost both the popular and delegate votes even if the DNC hadn't been undermining his campaign from the very beginning, but we'll never know now.

And frankly, the greatest injustice of the whole thing is that now we won't get to hear the presidential debate where Trump asks Sanders if he's chicken. I was looking forward to that pun, it's such a classic.