i found a bug (another) in the bible

[lxskllr]

patches welcomed!

submit a pull request.

 

[Ban Bot]

Heaven/Hell is a Christian concept developed at least a century after Jesus's supposed death; it is not a Jewish concept. Jesus was a Jew.

The concept of an afterlife existed well before his time and specifically the Second Temple literature is chalk full of references to heaven (variable identified as heaven, kingdom of God, age to come, new creation, etc.) and to a negative afterlife (gehenna, the abyss, tarturus, lake of fire, etc.) Everyone from the Qumranis, Pharisaical schools, Josephus, Philo, "Christians" believed in eternal life. This is what made the Sadducees so exceptional as they did not believe in a resurrection.

I can cite the literature if you wish but I am sure a google of afterlife or heaven with "Josephus Philo Qumran" will satisfy.

Heck, even the most liberal of scholars when they get down to Q source and identify the few things known for certain list the belief he was resurrected as one of the few certain things we know. Which dives right into the earliest message: A man (Jesus) was raised from the grave, proving the resurrection is real. Hence the early "Christian" message of hope of a resurrection to eternal life to those who have faith in him. Without these 2 components none of the early history makes sense at all. if they did not believe Jesus rose from the grave what was the message they shared? And if they did preach his resurrection it authenticates the records that this is the hope they proclaimed.

RE: OP / Heaven & Hell. There are variable strands of interpretation and obviously Protestant dogma is that people go to heaven or hell at death (at least since the time Jesus rose) my own assessment is they believed in a resurrection where the dead "sleep" in the grave until the day of his second advent (1Theselonians 4, 1Corinthians 15 to name a few). And even then only the elect--the rest of humans are raised after the 1000 year reign. The number of passages pointing to the grave (sheol) as the destiny of man and sleep and a future resurrection abound.

The passages typically cited for immediate delivery are texts like Luke on Abraham's Bosom which is a parable and notably his bosom in Second Temple literature wasn't in heaven. Paul talking of being absent from the body present with the Lord ignores he also saw his spirit as present with the fellowships he established even though he was not physically present.

This devolves into a discussion of Biblical anthropology--the constituent parts of man--with the traditional position being tripartite soul/body/spirit but most non-sectarian, especially Old Testament, scholars see the general view as a "whole" and the concept of an [eternal] soul a Hellenistic idea that is read into the text and not natively present.

TL;DR Version: Lazarus raising from the dead doesn't indicate he was sucked out of heaven back into his human body. Jesus referring to him as sleeping is the same idiom Paul regularly uses for the dead--who according to 1Theselonians 4 will be raised first from the dead (i.e. resurrected, therefore not in heaven) at the advent of Jesus. Some would argue according to Peter's epistles the captives of the OT were not yet set free (bad reading of that text IMO) and since Jesus people do go to heaven but alas it doesn't change the station of Lazarus who would have been in the dirt/sheol.

Particular sectarian views & interpretations abound but none would have issue with Lazarus being brought from the grave.

 

[Ban Bot]

Huh? Dead people don't go to heaven or hell immediately according to Christianity.

They just stay dormant until second coming of Christ occurs (i.e. rapture & apocalypse). THEN everyone dead wakes up (not physically) and get sent to heaven or hell.

So Lazarus was just dead, didn't go anywhere, and was brought back to life.

As others noted, in Catholicism the dead typically go to Purgatory to be purified. For Protestants, they do think you go to heaven--many (not all) see this as a change of process due to Jesus' resurrection where previously they may have slept in the dirt.

Some, a minority, believe in "soul sleep" where everyone is in the dirt until the resurrection.

I am not denominationally aligned, but I am a believer, so take it with a grain of salt but I lean heavily on the last position. I think the "straight to heaven or hell" position is academically weak, giving lip service to the Second Temple view of Abraham's bosom and fanciful readings of Peter, and highly influenced by Hellenistic views of the soul and creates an inconsistent message that is otherwise very uniform.

 

[KeithP]

What happens (according to the bible, that is) when you die? hmm, that's right. You go to heaven .. or in case, to hell.

Wrong. I won't tell you how you are wrong but you are wrong. If you are really interested, you will do your research and figure out your error. Of course, we both know you aren't interested.

Failure, thy name is DigDog.

-KeithP

 

[Mayne]

did i tell you guys about the time i met god?

 

[Grooveriding]

Fairy tales are meant as entertainment, not to be taken literally. This is like trying to figure out by what mechanism in Cinderella a frog turned into a human that was also a prince.

 

[Jeff7]

This has been a very civil discussion thus far. Color me surprised.

Except Mai. The bit about not getting attached to your family was just flat out depressing. I'll just go live in a hole, because nothing matters anyway.

Just be sure you don't get too attached to that hole.


















That's what she said.:'(

 

[GagHalfrunt]

patches welcomed!

submit a pull request.

Christianity has been patched 30,000+ times already. That's where all the different sects of jesus-freaks came from. They all read the bible, thought "Wow!! This is stupid" and invented some half-assed fixes for the parts they found buggy in the original release. But like most amateur patches they only made things worse. When the source code is that bad to begin with it's better to dump it and start from scratch on an entirely different platform. That's where Pastafarianism came from. Ramen.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Christianity has been patched 30,000+ times already. That's where all the different sects of jesus-freaks came from. They all read the bible, thought "Wow!! This is stupid" and invented some half-assed fixes for the parts they found buggy in the original release. But like most amateur patches they only made things worse. When the source code is that bad to begin with it's better to dump it and start from scratch on an entirely different platform. That's where Pastafarianism came from. Ramen.

It's more like it got forked many times. Too many versions now, and only a few are worth installing. :biggrin:

 

[Blue_Max]

Not everyone interprets what happens at death the same as you, even direct from the bible. See Mark 5:39, Luke 8:52-53, Matthew 9:24 (all 3 are same account, but for reference), Psalm 13:3... John 11:11-14 is specific to Lazarus which also indicates he has fallen asleep, but both accounts are referring to death. 1 Cor 15:20, 1 Thes 4:13-18, etc.

The point being, there *may* be a period prior to going to heaven or hell that you're not accounting for... where you're just "sleeping".

Now, not arguing what is correct... but if you're going to use the bible's indications of what happens at death, there is more to consider. But if you've already decided it's a farce, I'm not sure why you'd spend any time on it?

You're on the right path. The bible referred to death as "sleep" many times. The same story also describes how his sister knew she would see Lazarus again, "At the resurrection, on the last day." Where all are resurrected at the same time at the second coming of Jesus.

The whole going to heaven or hell upon death is actually NOT biblical, nor is it found there. The closest thing to it is a single parable of a fictional (fictional-fictional?) person in "hell" asking for water, IIRC. Jesus was only telling a story to prove a point, not talking about a hell existing at that time.

 

[Blue_Max]

As others noted, in Catholicism the dead typically go to Purgatory to be purified. For Protestants, they do think you go to heaven--many (not all) see this as a change of process due to Jesus' resurrection where previously they may have slept in the dirt.

Some, a minority, believe in "soul sleep" where everyone is in the dirt until the resurrection.

I am not denominationally aligned, but I am a believer, so take it with a grain of salt but I lean heavily on the last position. I think the "straight to heaven or hell" position is academically weak, giving lip service to the Second Temple view of Abraham's bosom and fanciful readings of Peter, and highly influenced by Hellenistic views of the soul and creates an inconsistent message that is otherwise very uniform.

Thanks for reminding me... the going to heaven-or-hell upon death thing was invented by the catholic church. They also invented purgatory from nothing at all (it doesn't exist in the bible anywhere) as a great money-generator since family members were encouraged to PAY to get their loved ones out of purgatory faster.

 

[IronWing]

It's more like it got forked many times. Too many versions now, and only a few are worth installing. :biggrin:

Debian made me do it.

 

[elitejp]

the weirdest things come to mind when you've slept too much but need to sleep anyway because you have a meeting early in the morning.

also, watching Preacher must have helped.


So .. the resurrection of lazarus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_of_Lazarus

When jesus gets to Bethany, Lazarus has been dead for four days, right?

What happens (according to the bible, that is) when you die? hmm, that's right. You go to heaven .. or in case, to hell.

So Lazarus dies, and his soul travels to heaven -or- to hell. Then 4 days later jesus, nonchalant, resurrects him.

Lazarus speaks, moves amongst his family, recognizes people. He's not a zombie or anything.
So jesus not only resurrected his body, he put his soul back in it.

Now, again we know that heaven is a state of bliss, you witness the splendor of God, and it's *the* perfect state of existence that any soul can wish.
Otoh, hell is a spiritual torture, the polar opposite.

To think this guy returns to life after having experienced either, is insane. He would be either like "wtf, why did you bring me back to this shithole", or in the other instance, something like "it buuurns .. it buurrnnnnsss!!".



I telling the devs about this.

Exactly. Im not sure where you see the problem but to expand on how the Bible addresses this topic I will fill in a few points.

Jesus resurects the body but the scripture defiines man as three parts, spirit, soul and body.
The spirit is the real you. It what gives life to the body. Just like a hand in a glove will give movement to the glove. The glove isnt moving by itself its moving because the hand is.
The soul is your mind will and emotions. Its a part of you.
Your body is basically the house you live in. When the body dies that doesnt mean you die. But you will stop activity here on the earth.

So Jesus not only has to call the spirit back into the body(which of course the soul will be connected, but he also has to heal the body. In this case not only was there a miracle of Lazerous being called back to earth but also his body being healed. If the body wasnt healed he would just die as soon as he reentered the body.

Im sure Lazerous wanted to stay in heaven but for some reason needed to come back. Simply put he still had work to do. I say that because Paul the apostle said that he would rather be in heaven which is far better than being here on earth but since people needed him here on the earth to continue and preach the gospel he also wanted to remain so that he could help others.

For your other point their have been people who have said they went to hell and it was more horrendous than they could even explain. Ive also read of ministers who have raised people from the dead and the people whi were raised later said they wanted to stay in heaven.

 

[stormkroe]

As others noted, in Catholicism the dead typically go to Purgatory to be purified. For Protestants, they do think you go to heaven--many (not all) see this as a change of process due to Jesus' resurrection where previously they may have slept in the dirt.

Some, a minority, believe in "soul sleep" where everyone is in the dirt until the resurrection.

I am not denominationally aligned, but I am a believer, so take it with a grain of salt but I lean heavily on the last position. I think the "straight to heaven or hell" position is academically weak, giving lip service to the Second Temple view of Abraham's bosom and fanciful readings of Peter, and highly influenced by Hellenistic views of the soul and creates an inconsistent message that is otherwise very uniform.

It's actually all there, it just requires exegetical eschatology. The idea of 'heaven' as a fluffly cloudscape with harps and wings is more at home in a Tom & Jerry cartoon, and due to historic translation errors, 'hell' is used in many old writings where it shouldn't be.
According to the Bible, Sheol, 'the grave', is the common destination for people when they die and await the white throne judgement. Abraham's bosom for the elect, and a place of torment across a wide chasm for the damned (all figurative, as there is nor corporeal component since physical bodies have not been glorified yet and are still inside the earth, I.e. to be absent from THE BODY is to be present with the Lord).
Only at the last judgement will the 'wheat be separated from the chaff', some to eternal glory, some to be cast into the lake of fire along with death and hell.
Also, if the bible taught unconscious dirt-naps, then stories like Lazarus speaking to Jesus (not resurrection Lazarus) or Revelation's 'the saints under the alter, asking when their deaths would be avenged' wouldn't make sense.

 

[DigDog]

Wrong. I won't tell you how you are wrong but you are wrong. If you are really interested, you will do your research and figure out your error. Of course, we both know you aren't interested.

Failure, thy name is DigDog.

-KeithP

well excuse me, mr awesome.

the whole "not actually going to hell" thing makes the entire catholic church redundant. it's not quite as easy to sell "when you die, you go to sleep and sometime in the far future, if and when jesus comes back, then there will be a judgement, possibly, not quite sure".

 

[1sikbITCH]

It wouldn't make sense because you have no faith.

Agreed. Faith requires willingness suspension of disbelief and the ability to disregard logic. Not everyone is cut out for it.

 

[Gardener]

Not everyone interprets what happens at death the same as you, even direct from the bible. See Mark 5:39, Luke 8:52-53, Matthew 9:24 (all 3 are same account, but for reference), Psalm 13:3... John 11:11-14 is specific to Lazarus which also indicates he has fallen asleep, but both accounts are referring to death. 1 Cor 15:20, 1 Thes 4:13-18, etc.

The point being, there *may* be a period prior to going to heaven or hell that you're not accounting for... where you're just "sleeping".

Now, not arguing what is correct... but if you're going to use the bible's indications of what happens at death, there is more to consider. But if you've already decided it's a farce, I'm not sure why you'd spend any time on it?

I always like it when bible apologists start with the "different interpretations of time and periods" and "not arguing about what is correct" and "why are you spending time on it if you've already decided it is a farce" GREATEST HITS ALBUM.

Reminds me of growing up in West Michigan, amongst the Dutch Calvinists.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

Damn, i think i have a cookie here someplace to give you. I owe you a cookie sometime.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

It's more like it got forked many times. Too many versions now, and only a few are worth installing. :biggrin:

None are worth installing and I would recommend really good backups before trying any of them. Some of the versions can latch onto other unrelated life programs and are really tough to get rid of.

 

[SP33Demon]

lmao at obvious troll. God can do whatever the f he wants

 

[Puffnstuff]

I think that all religion is BS plain and simple. Someone spent a lot of their time here trying to convince everyone of that very fact but nobody wanted to hear him. Funny thing is that churches today are just the very same way they were back then. As it was in the days of Noah indeed!

 

[IronWing]

lmao at obvious troll. God can do whatever the f he wants

Only if you let him.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

lmao at obvious troll. God can do whatever the f he wants

So god clearly doesn't want world peace, an end to starvation, an end to diseases, an end to child abuse and he doesn't want to reveal himself so that all the wannabelievers know which story to believe.

God is a giant douche, he wants people to suffer.

 

[IronWing]

God is a giant douche, he wants people to suffer.

And you can change that as well. Gods are nothing if not accommodating.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

And you can change that as well. Gods are nothing if not accommodating.

Not all that accommodating. I've offered to devote my life to any god what would give me riches and hot women, but none came through. I even invented a few that would do that for me and they failed too. That's the thing, the Christians and the Muslims and the Jews all invented their gods to give them what they want just like I did and they're not having any more luck with it than I did. It seems like once you invent a god he stops being accommodating and just wanders off to watch porn and drink beer or whatever the fuck gods do when they're avoiding doing the things they were created to do.

The only way I can get any god to accommodate me is to ask for absolutely nothing and that seems counter-productive as I can get absolutely nothing without going through the trouble of asking in the first place.