i found a bug (another) in the bible

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Blue_Max

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2011
4,227
153
106
God is a giant douche, he wants people to suffer.

If you're referring to what most people consider 'hell', you'd be right. We can thank Catholicism for that misconception. You might be happy to know that concept is NOT biblical and the earlier example of Lazarus of everyone being raised simultaneously on the 'last day', and those not included are not punished for eternity but eliminated. (There are several verses to support that interpretation, including the damned being dust under the raised's feet, etc.)

I certainly found that interpretation to be far better than the common belief left over from the catholic money-making version. :|

For what little that's worth... I'm still unconvinced, since the utter lack of any divine intervention has left me pretty disillusioned.

Meh... whatever. Call me agnostic.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,297
2,001
126
If you're referring to what most people consider 'hell', you'd be right. We can thank Catholicism for that misconception. You might be happy to know that concept is NOT biblical

Of course I know it's not biblical. And I also know how the bible came to be the bible. Do you? For more than 300 years AD Christianity was a bunch of minor tribal religions that were based on Dionysus, Horus, Balder, Zoroaster, Mythras, Attis of Phrygia and half a dozen other deities that were either sun gods, sons of gods (or both) who all had the same basic life story and has been percolating through that region for centuries before Jesus was invented. Emperor Constantine decided he was going to believe in Jesus and he didn't want a splintered tribal religion. He wanted one single story that he could spread, control and monetize. So he called the Council of Nicea and got some of the dumbest people on Earth, the tribal leaders, shamans and pseudo-mystics to gather and he forced them to come up with a backstory for his religion. So they sat around and re-wrote their myths and their campfire stories and they passed the bible like the US Congress passes a farm subsidy bill. They voted and horse traded and philibustered and bribed and coerced to get the stuff they wanted included. "I'll give you the no gays thing if you give me the part about selling your kids into slavery, deal?" And they eventually agreed on which stories they would chose to believe and sell to their followers as the real word of god. And Constantine took it and sent his legions to spread it like the virus it is. Convert or die.

It doesn't matter what is included in the bible and what is a modern patch of the message, it's all invented anyway. It's some charlatan picking stories he likes and claiming they're the word of voices in his head or even worse, a truly psychotic schizophrenic who really does hear voices in his head. Either way, it takes a monumentally stupid and willfully ignorant fool to believe the original bible has any more or any less merit than the stuff that's been added to it over the years. The extended edition of Lord of the Rings is not any less fantasy than the original text.
 
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Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,037
4,800
136
BM people who go to hell are not eliminated. As a matter of fact hell in its present form is a waiting area for the great judgement and after each person's life is reviewed by God at the opening of the books they will be judged each according to his/her own deeds and sentences accordingly. After this process is completed hell and all of creation will be cast into the lake of fire to burn for eternity.

Without the free salvation offered by Jesus every single person who is born into this existence will pass into hell. Only Jesus can forgive you of your sins and no man has the authority to perform this act. You can sit in all of the confessionals and pray the rosary all day long and when you die you will end up in eternal darkness. Salvation is the free gift of God not of works lest any man boast and religions that push salvation by works will all be there too.

The question is simple. If you are taught correctly, say you mother teaches you that the stove top is hot so don't touch it or you will suffer the consequences of getting burned and you ignore her and touch it anyway who's fault is it? Likewise, when a Christian tells you about the salvation offered through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and you ignore it and end up in hell is it anyone's fault but your own?

Do not confuse religion with the salvation offered by Jesus because they are not one and the same thing. Jesus hated religion and confronted the religious leaders of his day (Pharisees, Sadducees and scribes) on a regular basis. They had religion full of rituals of men which is not what God wants for us. A personal relationship with Jesus is not religion as organized religion would have you believe. Do not listen to the "Word of Faith" preachers as they are shysters who want to prosper off you using religion to propel them to their prosperity.

When you have genuine salvation you have a personal relationship with your creator plain and simple and you can be dirt poor and maintain this relationship. Church actors today look down on the poor and afflicted when the bible says that a Christian should have compassion for such people. You will know them by their fruits. A church actor is not a Christian and you should make the distinction between the two. I am a Christian not a church actor and I cannot stand people who dress up on Sunday and present their church facade. I am the same 24/7 no matter where I am or who I am around. Only a genuine Christian can confess that Jesus is God in the flesh which is the biblical litmus test to determine who possesses the spirit of God and who doesn't and is found in I John 4:1-2.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,128
5,657
126
BM people who go to hell are not eliminated. As a matter of fact hell in its present form is a waiting area for the great judgement and after each person's life is reviewed by God at the opening of the books they will be judged each according to his/her own deeds and sentences accordingly. After this process is completed hell and all of creation will be cast into the lake of fire to burn for eternity.

Without the free salvation offered by Jesus every single person who is born into this existence will pass into hell. Only Jesus can forgive you of your sins and no man has the authority to perform this act. You can sit in all of the confessionals and pray the rosary all day long and when you die you will end up in eternal darkness. Salvation is the free gift of God not of works lest any man boast and religions that push salvation by works will all be there too.

The question is simple. If you are taught correctly, say you mother teaches you that the stove top is hot so don't touch it or you will suffer the consequences of getting burned and you ignore her and touch it anyway who's fault is it? Likewise, when a Christian tells you about the salvation offered through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and you ignore it and end up in hell is it anyone's fault but your own?

Do not confuse religion with the salvation offered by Jesus because they are not one and the same thing. Jesus hated religion and confronted the religious leaders of his day (Pharisees, Sadducees and scribes) on a regular basis. They had religion full of rituals of men which is not what God wants for us. A personal relationship with Jesus is not religion as organized religion would have you believe. Do not listen to the "Word of Faith" preachers as they are shysters who want to prosper off you using religion to propel them to their prosperity.

When you have genuine salvation you have a personal relationship with your creator plain and simple and you can be dirt poor and maintain this relationship. Church actors today look down on the poor and afflicted when the bible says that a Christian should have compassion for such people. You will know them by their fruits. A church actor is not a Christian and you should make the distinction between the two. I am a Christian not a church actor and I cannot stand people who dress up on Sunday and present their church facade. I am the same 24/7 no matter where I am or who I am around. Only a genuine Christian can confess that Jesus is God in the flesh which is the biblical litmus test to determine who possesses the spirit of God and who doesn't and is found in I John 4:1-2.

You state these varied things as if they are Fact, when they are just specific opinions amongst a sea of differing opinions all based upon Faith, rather than Fact.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,037
4,800
136
Sir when you hear the truth and ignore it then the responsibility is yours and yours alone.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,128
5,657
126
Sir when you hear the truth and ignore it then the responsibility is yours and yours alone.

You can not demonstrate that anything you said above is even True, nevermind "the truth". Anyone could assert anything and claim it as True or the Truth, just as you have done. There is no value in that form of truth, much less a need to believe it.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,622
2,189
126
the one thing i got from starting this thread is that American Jesusism is waay different from European Catholicism.
no wonder Donald Trump doesn't like the pope.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,037
4,800
136
You can not demonstrate that anything you said above is even True, nevermind "the truth". Anyone could assert anything and claim it as True or the Truth, just as you have done. There is no value in that form of truth, much less a need to believe it.

I respect your opinion.
 

Tweak155

Lifer
Sep 23, 2003
11,448
262
126
I always like it when bible apologists start with the "different interpretations of time and periods" and "not arguing about what is correct" and "why are you spending time on it if you've already decided it is a farce" GREATEST HITS ALBUM.

Reminds me of growing up in West Michigan, amongst the Dutch Calvinists.

Glad I could entertain you, then.

That said, if you've had enough experience you know that people will continue to believe what they thought was correct to begin with and also should have learned by this point that... there is no point in arguing. Thus why I did not argue the point, but offered another explanation. I will not claim he is wrong because at the end of the day, there is no way of knowing.

The biggest problem with arguing the "god figure" is that it can change to suit ANY situation. Perhaps to some that means it is obviously false, but to others it might make complete sense.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,523
27,823
136
BM people who go to hell are not eliminated. As a matter of fact hell in its present form is a waiting area for the great judgement and after each person's life is reviewed by God at the opening of the books they will be judged each according to his/her own deeds and sentences accordingly. After this process is completed hell and all of creation will be cast into the lake of fire to burn for eternity.

Without the free salvation offered by Jesus every single person who is born into this existence will pass into hell. Only Jesus can forgive you of your sins and no man has the authority to perform this act. You can sit in all of the confessionals and pray the rosary all day long and when you die you will end up in eternal darkness. Salvation is the free gift of God not of works lest any man boast and religions that push salvation by works will all be there too.

The question is simple. If you are taught correctly, say you mother teaches you that the stove top is hot so don't touch it or you will suffer the consequences of getting burned and you ignore her and touch it anyway who's fault is it? Likewise, when a Christian tells you about the salvation offered through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and you ignore it and end up in hell is it anyone's fault but your own?

Do not confuse religion with the salvation offered by Jesus because they are not one and the same thing. Jesus hated religion and confronted the religious leaders of his day (Pharisees, Sadducees and scribes) on a regular basis. They had religion full of rituals of men which is not what God wants for us. A personal relationship with Jesus is not religion as organized religion would have you believe. Do not listen to the "Word of Faith" preachers as they are shysters who want to prosper off you using religion to propel them to their prosperity.

When you have genuine salvation you have a personal relationship with your creator plain and simple and you can be dirt poor and maintain this relationship. Church actors today look down on the poor and afflicted when the bible says that a Christian should have compassion for such people. You will know them by their fruits. A church actor is not a Christian and you should make the distinction between the two. I am a Christian not a church actor and I cannot stand people who dress up on Sunday and present their church facade. I am the same 24/7 no matter where I am or who I am around. Only a genuine Christian can confess that Jesus is God in the flesh which is the biblical litmus test to determine who possesses the spirit of God and who doesn't and is found in I John 4:1-2.
So we're once again back to "If you don't obey my sock puppet, you will burn in a lake of fire for all eternity." To borrow a line from the Smothers Brothers, "Curb your god, knave."
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,037
4,800
136
Being a member of a free society allows each of us the liberty to choose our own thoughts. As such I respect that you do not believe in the same manner that I do. When people are at the opposite ends of a particular spectrum it's often difficult to bridge the gap between them. Since there is no reward in debating the difference, such as arriving at an amiable solution, it is pointless to blather on about why one party is right and the other is wrong when neither is willing to relinquish their position.

Just remember later on that if you refuse the mark of the beast that you can still make it to heaven. Taking the mark is a pledge of allegiance to Satan and an automatic condemnation to hell. In this age of tattle tale electronics I see that day closing in on us. Nobody will be able to run to the woods and hide during this period and unfortunately too many people believe that they'll somehow escape it with backwoods skills.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,297
2,001
126
Because I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that when I leave this life that I will go into his presence.

He's a sadistic, child-torturing asshole who thinks you're a giant piece of shit that is unworthy of him. I hope you two are very happy together, maybe you can have pillow fights and braid each others hair.
 
Reactions: IronWing

Ban Bot

Senior member
Jun 1, 2010
796
1
76
It's actually all there, it just requires exegetical eschatology.

Something cannot be labeled the “exegetical eschatology” position without first stating your presuppositions. An exegete with a Dispensational predisposition and another with a classically Reformed predisposition will result at very different end points, not due to their exegesis, but their presuppositions about the nature of Scripture and how it is framed. The hermeneutical basis for exegetical study highly influences any exegete’s results. I don’t really care about denominational or confessional presuppositions.

My bias is toward a grammatical-historical hermeneutic that is mindful of genre and contemporary literature (in this context Second Temple) as well as a mindfulness of the philosophical influences that impacted later interpreters.

The idea of 'heaven' as a fluffly cloudscape with harps and wings is more at home in a Tom & Jerry cartoon, and due to historic translation errors, 'hell' is used in many old writings where it shouldn't be.

I would go further: there is no hell in the, “Scriptures.”

I would go as far as to say discussing the afterlife and fate of those under wrath with someone who insists to insert “hell” into the discussion is fruitless as they have already prejudiced the meaning of a vast array of words with different uses and meanings. Translating sheol as hell, as the King James Bible does, is erroneous. So while the word hell is used in many Bible translations it isn’t useful or real exegesis as the translators have already conflated divergent concepts because the translator themselves are unable to see the difference due to confessional predispositions. In the New Testament translators and exegetes frequently conflate Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus, Abyss, Lake of Fire and in the Hebrew Bible tehom, sheol, abaddon, etc. as the same thing as a priori assumption.

If exegesis drives a conclusion Hades is the same thing as the Lake of Fire (it doesn’t; cf. Rev 20:14) that is one thing; using Hell as a prejudicial reference to both only steers the conversation to the conclusion the exegete already has.

According to the Bible, Sheol, 'the grave', is the common destination for people when they die and await the white throne judgement.

I would agree, with this caveat about the dead: the elect in Christ are not in sheol until the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev 20:11ff) but are resurrected at the Second Advent (1Thes 4; Rev 20:1-7) and reign with Christ for a thousand years (unless you are a-millennial…). They do not remain in the grave until the Great White Throne Judgment. Those in the second, or general, resurrection, remain in sheol until that time.

Abraham's bosom for the elect, and a place of torment across a wide chasm for the damned (all figurative, as there is nor corporeal component since physical bodies have not been glorified yet and are still inside the earth, I.e. to be absent from THE BODY is to be present with the Lord).

Sheol was being "segmented" in Second Temple literature – something the Hebrew Bible says nothing of.

e.g. The Book of Enoch (chpt. 22) divides it into 4 sections, one corresponding the Abraham’s Bosom yet not called such because Enoch ws before Abraham. The Apocalypse of Zephaniah (chpt. 9) sees sheol divided between the side of the righteous such as Abraham and David and the wicked side where the Abyss and Hades were. Genesis Rabah has Abraham sitting outside the gates of Gehenna ensuring none with the sign of the covenant enter (67).

Yet the Hebrew Bible knows nothing of this division or segmentation of sheol. In fact, the remainder of the New Testament fails to speak clearly about a division in sheol (most often Hades in the Greek). Is this new revelation? …

Genre is important: This is a parable. Like a poem or a metaphor the interpreter needs to determine the boundaries of the figures of speech. Is this parable reflecting a fact or using an image or concept. The parables are full of images that do not have 1:1 correspondance. Is Yeshua a hard man take what is not his and instructing usury which is forbidden by the Torah (Matthew 25) or is God a wicked judge (Luke 17)?

Striking more to the point: Does Abel’s blood have a voice and cry out? (Genesis 4:10) Or specifically to sheol which is said to have a hand Psalms 49:15, a womb Jonah 2:3, a mouth Pslam 141:7, enlarges itself and opens its mouth widely Isaiah 5:14, and is never full Proverbs 27:20? Do these personifications make sheol a person or a living entity? Not automatically because the Hebrew Bible frequently uses personification of non-living objects as a form of expressiveness.

Returning to the Parable in Luke 16 the point is pointed: Those who ignored Moses in this life won’t change their minds to live rightly if someone rose from the grave (Jesus) to warn them.

Luke 16:27ff (NKJV)
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”

Hence the urgency to respond to the message of the Kingdom Jesus preached. The use of the imagery of Abraham’s Bosom is used primarily to note the destination of the dead is set, e.g. indicated elsewhere

Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. (NKJV)

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, (NKJV)

So it is not completely obvious the image of Abraham’s Bosom is present to teach the realities of sheol or to use a contemporary concept to make a point. The exegete who wishes to establish the former would need to then utilize the remainder of Scripture to substantiate the divided sheol position.

It is worth throwing out there that it has been suggested that Lazarus, a short form of Eleazar, is taking the place of Abraham in Luke 16 (The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus). Eleazar, being the servant of Abraham (Genesis 15), who was not of the line of Abraham, being put in Abraham’s place (Genesis Rabah) in the parable is in theme with Luke-Acts focus on how the kingdom message was to reach to the Gentiles, too.

I would finish by noting that while the Second Temple literature is relatively uniform in placing Abraham’s Bosom in sheol you undercut the concept by arguing it is “all figurative” due to the lack of corporality of the dead. We obviously agree elements of a parable need to be interpreted. The issue is the Hebrew Bible generally teaches the dead know nothing (Eccl 9:5; also Job 14:21, Psalm 6:5, etc.) and it is a place of silence are silent nor can call or hope upon God (Ps 115;17, 31:17, Isa 38:18, etc.)

Only at the last judgement will the 'wheat be separated from the chaff', some to eternal glory, some to be cast into the lake of fire along with death and hell.

See above, the elect are already resurrected. Is your position that at the Great White Throne Judgment some of those in the second resurrection will enter glory?

Also, if the bible taught unconscious dirt-naps, then stories like Lazarus speaking to Jesus (not resurrection Lazarus) or Revelation's 'the saints under the alter, asking when their deaths would be avenged' wouldn't make sense.

See: Abel’s blood.

The saints are told to “rest” a little longer in Revelation 6. I won’t belabor that Revelation is full of representational imagery that isn’t to be taken literally but is figurative for people, governments, etc. But worth noting: Revelation draws strongly upon the “World as Temple” or “Cosmic Temple” view of creation (good intros on this topic from Beale, Levenson, Weinfield, etc.). Just as the bronze basin represented the sea (1Kings 7:23ff) of creation, the altar of earth (Exodus 24) of the tabernacle / temple, which had to be of uncut stones (i.e. not fashioned by human hands, but the work of the creator), was the bosom of the earth (Ezekeil 43:14) and centrally the mountain of God (16).

Hence Revelation 6, by placing the saints _under_ the altar, which is the earth, John is positionally locating the dead saints “under the earth (altar)” i.e. the grave, sheol which is below the earth.

I personally think it is important to note that the texts in general require a bit of contextual and canonical interpretation and my thoughts are not universal consensus (far from it)--nor would I say my observations are absolutely certain. But I do stand by my statement that the typically exegesis of Luke 16's parable is typically superficial, weak, and dismissive of the Second Temple context and the common Protestant reading of 1Peter 3 as fanciful.

This funnels the discussion to a number of passages about various torture imagery of Gehenna in the Gospels, the nature of the Transfiguration (were some resurrected/ascended to heaven before Jesus contra John), the promise to the thief (is 'today' an eschatological today like Hebrews 4, or a miss-divided comma) and the nature of the spirit/Spirit of man. Which gets into Biblical anthropology and anatomy which is a huge topic but at its basics the Hebrew Bible conceived of man--actually all flesh--living by the providence of God's "breath" (or Spirit, Heb. ruach). Hence Yahweh God breathed into Adam, earth-man made from dust, breathed the nishmat chayim "breath of life" into his nostrils. Adam, being dust, when the spirit (breath) is taken he and the rest of creation return to dust just as Adam was told he would (Genesis 3).

Ecc 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Psalm 103:14
For He Himself knows our frame; He is mindful that we are but dust.

Psalm 104:29
You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust.

Job 34:14f
"If He should determine to do so, If He should gather to Himself His spirit and His breath, All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.

Psalm 146:4
His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

Apart from the issue of the nature of the spirit, being "absent" form the body comes into contact with Paul's concept of the body, i.e. Tent. Which in 2Co 5 he isn't looking to leave the tent but become less naked by receiving an imperishable tent. Reading 1Co 5:1-8 in context of 1Co 15:50ff and 1Th 4 and when the new tent is given it in my opinion greatly changes the context of being 'absent' from the body--i.e. we will be absent from these tattered tents, and present with the Lord, when we are clothed with our heavenly bodies. Which following the common Pauline theme is someone will be changed instantly upon the Lord's advent and those in the grave will rise, all being changed [into a new body] in an instant [twinkle of an eye]. The assurance is the living won't precede the dead who will rise and be changed first.

Of course, yes, the majority view is your spirit departs to heaven and is re-united at the resurrection (you have to ask "why??!" anyone would want to go from a spirit existence to being fused with some resurrected body). Which requires some change of process from the Hebrew Bible where the dead sleep in the grace (which the change is furnished in their interpretation of 1Pe 3).

Again... presuppositions. Which is a big problem in _Pauline studies_ hence the various "perspectives" on Paul. Most versions of "Paul" cannot accept the fact he walked "orderly" according to the Torah and was willing to sacrifice to prove such (Acts 21). Or the inability to divorce reading Paul's issue with "works of the law" from Luther's view. Which, having the Dead Sea Scrolls in hand, clearly calls Luther's interpretation into question as being erroneous as it fails to take into consideration a more clear view of Second Temple issue (see: 4QMMT which Luther could not have been aware of) or that the "work" the law does is wrath (Romans 4:15; seeing then the "works of the law" as subjective instead of objective) due to the curses of the oath (Deuteronomy 27ff). Reading Paul as a Second Temple Jew aligned (present tense) with the schools of the Pharisees, and not as a creedal Christian of later generations, significantly impacts the results of exegesis.

Which doesn't make my positions correct, but they do require the "traditional" views to defend their interpretations in light of the contemporary contexts and not the historical confessions.
 

1sikbITCH

Diamond Member
Jan 3, 2001
4,194
574
126
BM people who go to hell are not eliminated. As a matter of fact hell in its present form is a waiting area for the great judgement and after each person's life is reviewed by God at the opening of the books they will be judged each according to his/her own deeds and sentences accordingly. After this process is completed hell and all of creation will be cast into the lake of fire to burn for eternity.

How did you come to prove this fact? Watch a Fox News article?
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,599
19
81
So god clearly doesn't want world peace, an end to starvation, an end to diseases, an end to child abuse and he doesn't want to reveal himself so that all the wannabelievers know which story to believe.

God is a giant douche, he wants people to suffer.
Sounds more like the God of Chaos.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,297
2,001
126
Goddess actually. Hail Eris!

It does seem fitting that Chaos would be presided over by a female, but it's both depending on the religion/myth.

Eris - F
Set - M
Kali - F
Apep - M
Unhcegila - F
Loki - M
Tiamat - F


And others. Both men and women can be real bastards/bitches.
 

stormkroe

Golden Member
May 28, 2011
1,550
97
91
You state these varied things as if they are Fact, when they are just specific opinions amongst a sea of differing opinions all based upon Faith, rather than Fact.

Agreed. I try to preface my 2.cents with the qualifier, 'the Bible says', etc. You've probably seen me weigh in on these types if threads enough to know that's true.

Gag, the dionysus/mythra/popa smurf, etc link has been blown to bits. Harold Massey (sp) is the n00b that really started that stuff, and it hasn't done any favors to atheism other than to give ammunition to the beleebers to attack with. The really effective thinkers like Christopher Hitchens are the ones asking hard, grown up questions that any student of theology has to admit to anguishing over themselves.

Banbot, wall of text just crit all of us and I'm afraid that most people won't have taken the time to read it. In broad discourse, keep it straight and to the point. What you've typed would be great for pm, but for here you might as well have cut/pasted the entire Bible and said, "See?"
I will point out a few quickies for your hard work though. I didn't start from a classically reformed mindset and find things to support my views. That is the opposite of exegesis. Rather, I found the doctrine of election a keystone of the entire new testament, and only found out as a young adult that I was attending an armenian church that didn't agree with what I read very plainly.
2nd, you can't use the old testament to clarify death, as it was a mystery to them only revealed by the teachings of the Messiah.
Finally, I don't know what 2nd temple you keep referring to. Are you talking about the literalist's view of a reinstated sacrificial practice in the millennial kingdom? (Fyi, I find that ebtire belief highly heretical). Feel free to answer in pm because no one here will care about your answer
 
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