I get conservative guys point about public assistance

[TastesLikeChicken]

Another straw man.



You claimed to be a social conservative, then told us you didn't believe in the same things as social conservatives. Well, other than looking down on poor people & raving about welfare abuse. That's decidedly conservative. You go on as if not being poor is some sort of moral superiority. When are people sufficiently needy to suit you, anyway? When they're homeless & hungry? When their kids go barefoot because they can't afford shoes?

Abuse the system? Sweet freaking Jebsu. Billionaires paying no taxes & crowing about how smart they are abuses the system. Repubs' version of healthcare reform abuses the system. Cutting assistance to needy families to increase military spending abuses the system.

I misspoke. I am not a "social" conservative, I am a "fiscal" conservative. My apologies. Mistakes happen when there are so many trying to pile on at once, as is so often the case in here.

Then again, I am not a social liberal either. More likely I would be described as somewhere in-between. Programs for the poor are necessary. However, those programs should never be intended to provide support in perpetuity. Those programs should be provided as a means to help people out of poverty. Are there people with mental/health issues who will never be able to make their way out of that hole? Yes. Other programs should assist them.

There's also another group, those who simply don't give a shit. Yeah, I know that you hate to admit that they exist, but they do. Nobody want's to live in poverty but there is that subset of people who lack the motivation to remove themselves from that situation, even though they do have the mental capacity.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

No, it seems to be about the local degenerates doing their usual FYGM dance.

Clearly you're nothing more than a mean, angry little bitch.

You have won the glorious position of being the sole person I now have on ignore. Congrats. You're welcome.

 

[Azuma Hazuki]

Too bad he can't see me playing the Brave Sir Robin theme on the world's smallest violin, eh? Sounds to me like he's too much of a limp-dicked wasted old dotard to deal with me.

 

[Jaepheth]

My problem with these sorts of stories is that anecdotes are not evidence.

If we had a government program in place that was an unheard of 99.99% effective, you'd have 10,000 examples of it going wrong per million people. That'd be 50,000 cases of it going wrong in my city alone.
People who it doesn't work for, people who take advantage, etc.

It's making perfect the enemy of the good. You can't fix things for everybody in a country this size. It's just not possible.
That shouldn't stop us from doing the best we can.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

My problem with these sorts of stories is that anecdotes are not evidence.

If we had a government program in place that was an unheard of 99.99% effective, you'd have 10,000 examples of it going wrong per million people. That'd be 50,000 cases of it going wrong in my city alone.
People who it doesn't work for, people who take advantage, etc.

It's making perfect the enemy of the good. You can't fix things for everybody in a country this size. It's just not possible.
That shouldn't stop us from doing the best we can.

The problem is that it's nowhere near 99.99% effective. If it were, I wouldn't complain. As the link to welfare fraud shows, it's probably closer to 20%, or higher (I'm lowballing so as not to appear anywhere unrealistic).

What percentage of fraud is acceptable to you?

 

[nickqt]

The point is that welfare/assistance/entitlements is addressing symptoms, not the sickness.

And, we're unable to actually address the sickness because then right-wing political correctness kicks in, and it's just shouts and screaming about THEFT and COMMUNISM.

That's the god damn problem in a nutshell.

There are plenty of solutions that can rein in how much money is lost on fraud, and how to best help people who need it. But until the conversation can even begin, the POWERFUL RICH fuck over the system for billions in large amounts to relatively few, while some poor people screw over the system for chump change in a larger numbers, and we're stuck...still...with the BothSidesDoIt™ apathetic attempt to go back to the Articles of Confederation, which didn't work the first time, rather than discussing the actual problem.

Because addressing the problem and working out solutions costs a lot of people money, power, and the ability to continue controlling the conversation which, no shit, nets them lots of money and power.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Yes, only one side is the sticking point to curing the issue. THAT sort of thinking is the real problem. It's the real sickness that pervades politics today

Both sides are such assholes. Both sides do do it. Ignore that all you want, but each points at the other as the problem.

Both sides are the problem. Both sides are morons. A solution could be put in place but neither side wants to compromise to implement that solution because that would mean giving in. Each side only wants their own solution and screw the opposition. Look at the health care debacle.

The left and right are morons and everyone suffers from their partisan idiocy.

 

[Jhhnn]

I misspoke. I am not a "social" conservative, I am a "fiscal" conservative. My apologies. Mistakes happen when there are so many trying to pile on at once, as is so often the case in here.

Then again, I am not a social liberal either. More likely I would be described as somewhere in-between. Programs for the poor are necessary. However, those programs should never be intended to provide support in perpetuity. Those programs should be provided as a means to help people out of poverty. Are there people with mental/health issues who will never be able to make their way out of that hole? Yes. Other programs should assist them.

There's also another group, those who simply don't give a shit. Yeah, I know that you hate to admit that they exist, but they do. Nobody want's to live in poverty but there is that subset of people who lack the motivation to remove themselves from that situation, even though they do have the mental capacity.

What it comes down to, TLC, is that you're a somewhat socially tolerant conservative who really doesn't understand the nature of hierarchical society & how our own has changed over the last 40 years. You don't integrate available information into your thinking.

I posted this in another thread, but it applies here as well-

Conservatives simply do not understand what's happened to the economy. Working people have been losing in the top down class warfare waged by the Rich for decades. Since 1980, the share of national income going to the lower 75% has fallen by a quarter, ~11% of the total, while the share going to the top 1% has more tan doubled, rising by ~11%.

Table 5-

https://taxfoundation.org/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2015-update

It's not just poor people who need assistance. It's the heart of the middle class, too.

But do go on white knighting for the greedy Rich.

 

[agent00f]

Welfare queens come in every color, but dolts like you have to make this about race instead of a system being abused, because you want to turn a blind eye to those abuses that have nothing whatsoever to do with race.

Stop playing the race card dipshit. It only serves to make you look like a...race card playing dipshit.

Face the facts. I have already posted those facts. Deal with them instead of acting like a major asshole.

Edit: Oh, and you're a racist POS.

It's simply a fact that you share all traits with white nationalists like rant about "welfare queens" and the rest of the politics. For example, take our reside self-avowed race realist @chucky2 loves ranting about them welfare queens just like you, and muslim genocide fan @Roflmouth who you also never have any issue with because you're similarly not a fan of them muslims. Both routinely accuse me of being the Real racist, same as you, and predictably only their associates agree.

The evidence is entirely clear that you literally insist on behaving exactly like people who are unimpeachable racist, and lie out of habit all the same.

What? I am no longer an old whitey racist per you and your kind? What will I be tomorrow? Hot sexy green girl with big tits from Mars? LOL.

Who said this? http://www.portvapes.co.uk/?id=Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps&exid=thread...y-going-to-do-it.2483077/page-6#post-38424566

Oh, it was you. Perfect example of "do as I say and not as I do". Hypocrite much? Once again, I use your own words to shame and humiliate you in public, again. No empty insult or "your penis is so small" as you and your kind love to use because that is all you are capable of.

Meanwhile, still nothing about your multiple accusations of other posters, still nothing about your support to whites when they were the victims as I did to minorities. Nothing. Just like your brain. Keep pulling the race card. Way to go, chump.

Keep digging, fool.

Good job ingratiating yourself to these types.

 

[jackstar7]

Holy cow! You actually attempted to say something meaningful and with content instead of your usual post&run snark. Congrats.

imo, the alarming part is the percentage of users who claim to have cheated because it indicates that fraud is likely far higher than net estimates would indicate.

Holy projection, Batman!

So you make a leap there. I understand the percentage being the sore spot, but to say it indicates fraud is "likely far higher"... that sounds entirely like your bias. Higher? I'd say that's likely. Far higher? You don't even know what that means, but it seems entirely feelings-based.

You mention in another post that "liberals" don't acknowledge the people who simply don't want to work. 1. Horseshit. 2. I accept that there will always be some small subset of people who do the literal least they can to skate by. How do they affect you and me? Not at all. All the fraud those people might be using to get by amounts to fuck-all of the budget. You know, in your life you've probably contributed a whole solid dollar to them. Let's say that I'm paying for something the government does that you value that I do not, and you stop giving a shit about why some people choose to live at the bottom, since you don't seem inclined to actually help them, but rather look for means to punish them.

I always have trouble with people who punch down. I can't wrap my head around the motivation to use one's energy in that direction.

 

[UglyCasanova]

What it comes down to, TLC, is that you're a somewhat socially tolerant conservative who really doesn't understand the nature of hierarchical society & how our own has changed over the last 40 years. You don't integrate available information into your thinking.

I posted this in another thread, but it applies here as well-

Conservatives simply do not understand what's happened to the economy. Working people have been losing in the top down class warfare waged by the Rich for decades. Since 1980, the share of national income going to the lower 75% has fallen by a quarter, ~11% of the total, while the share going to the top 1% has more tan doubled, rising by ~11%.

Table 5-

https://taxfoundation.org/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2015-update

It's not just poor people who need assistance. It's the heart of the middle class, too.

But do go on white knighting for the greedy Rich.

If we actually helped the middle class the effects would be felt throughout the upper and lower classes alike. The middle class is the backbone of this country but unfortunately eroding away.

 

[jackstar7]

If we actually helped the middle class the effects would be felt throughout the upper and lower classes alike. The middle class is the backbone of this country but unfortunately eroding away.

I wonder if there's someone we could take money from and ease the burden on the middle class.

Do you also wonder that?

 

[UglyCasanova]

I wonder if there's someone we could take money from and ease the burden on the middle class.

Do you also wonder that?

No I'm fine with taxing the rich and I support a progressive tax structure. I don't think that the answer to everything is just to tax them more though. We have to stop spending money we don't have as well. Increase revenue, cut spending, and focus our efforts on bolstering the middle class.

 

[agent00f]

No I'm fine with taxing the rich and I support a progressive tax structure. I don't think that the answer to everything is just to tax them more though. We have to stop spending money we don't have as well. Increase revenue, cut spending, and focus our efforts on bolstering the middle class.

It's a certain fact that you've read the economic lit which almost universally condemns conservative fiscal policy, which makes it curious why you're conservative.

 

[Jhhnn]

Holy projection, Batman!

So you make a leap there. I understand the percentage being the sore spot, but to say it indicates fraud is "likely far higher"... that sounds entirely like your bias. Higher? I'd say that's likely. Far higher? You don't even know what that means, but it seems entirely feelings-based.

You mention in another post that "liberals" don't acknowledge the people who simply don't want to work. 1. Horseshit. 2. I accept that there will always be some small subset of people who do the literal least they can to skate by. How do they affect you and me? Not at all. All the fraud those people might be using to get by amounts to fuck-all of the budget. You know, in your life you've probably contributed a whole solid dollar to them. Let's say that I'm paying for something the government does that you value that I do not, and you stop giving a shit about why some people choose to live at the bottom, since you don't seem inclined to actually help them, but rather look for means to punish them.

I always have trouble with people who punch down. I can't wrap my head around the motivation to use one's energy in that direction.

Suck up & punch down is standard conservatism. They'll white knight for the greedy Rich at nearly every opportunity & denounce the social mechanisms that empower & protect ordinary Americans.

Capitalism has scaled up & become much more streamlined, much better at sending profits to the financial elite. Huge impediments in engineering, materials, transportation & technology have been swept away by progress. Various business models & whole classes of domestic employment are being swept away at the same time. But everyday Americans still have to feed the kids & pay the bills with an ever diminishing share of national income. If we go on passively accepting whatever the Job Creators inadvertently leave us we'll all end up poor.

Or just give 'em taxcuts & pray for a miracle, that trickledown economics will actually deliver.

 

[Jhhnn]

No I'm fine with taxing the rich and I support a progressive tax structure. I don't think that the answer to everything is just to tax them more though. We have to stop spending money we don't have as well. Increase revenue, cut spending, and focus our efforts on bolstering the middle class.

Cut spending on what, exactly? Cut spending to create jobs? How does that work, exactly?

 

[agent00f]

Suck up & punch down is standard conservatism. They'll white knight for the greedy Rich at nearly every opportunity & denounce the social mechanisms that empower & protect ordinary Americans.

Gee I wonder why that huge scientifically verified racist part of the population love to support the party that equates blacks to criminals, muslims to terrorists, mexicans to rapists, and so on.

 

[Jhhnn]

Gee I wonder why that huge scientifically verified racist part of the population love to support the party that equates blacks to criminals, muslims to terrorists, mexicans to rapists, and so on.

You go on about Race the same way Svnla goes on about illegals.

 

[agent00f]

You go on about Race the same way Svnla goes on about illegals.

It's the reason why they parrot the party line about "welfare queens", and speaking of which, "illegals". I think understanding the reason behind these threads is important.

 

[nickqt]

It's the reason why they parrot the party line about "welfare queens", and speaking of which, "illegals". I think understanding the reason behind these threads is important.

Not for nothing, but it's clear when people are being racist, even when they're blowing their dog whistles through a fabric softener and crisp not-yet-worn white sheets.

I think what Jhhnn is getting at is that by calling them what they are over and over, it loses its meaning.

What I try to do, is include it as an aside, or use a more broadly-encompassing term; i.e. they don't care if the middle class gets gutted, as long as those people have it worse / bigotry.

More subtle, effective, and gets at the underlying tribalism, rather than pigeonholing them as racist, which frankly, they may not be.

Trust me, there are plenty of conservatives who aren't racist in the sense of the term, but fucking hate anyone who isn't a member of their conservative tribe. Here, bigotry is a broader term that includes their ignorant hatred of people who they don't consider members of their own tribe.

Be more inclusive in your argument, by being less specific about who you're arguing with. Plus, they don't get the automatic talking point rebuttal of: no, YOU'RE the real racist / everyone that disagrees with you is a racist.

 

[Jhhnn]

Not for nothing, but it's clear when people are being racist, even when they're blowing their dog whistles through a fabric softener and crisp not-yet-worn white sheets.

I think what Jhhnn is getting at is that by calling them what they are over and over, it loses its meaning.

What I try to do, is include it as an aside, or use a more broadly-encompassing term; i.e. they don't care if the middle class gets gutted, as long as those people have it worse / bigotry.

More subtle, effective, and gets at the underlying tribalism, rather than pigeonholing them as racist, which frankly, they may not be.

Trust me, there are plenty of conservatives who aren't racist in the sense of the term, but fucking hate anyone who isn't a member of their conservative tribe. Here, bigotry is a broader term that includes their ignorant hatred of people who they don't consider members of their own tribe.

Be more inclusive in your argument, by being less specific about who you're arguing with. Plus, they don't get the automatic talking point rebuttal of: no, YOU'RE the real racist / everyone that disagrees with you is a racist.

Agreed. It's not like those delicious liberal tears come just from minorities.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Not for nothing, but it's clear when people are being racist, even when they're blowing their dog whistles through a fabric softener and crisp not-yet-worn white sheets.

I think what Jhhnn is getting at is that by calling them what they are over and over, it loses its meaning.

What I try to do, is include it as an aside, or use a more broadly-encompassing term; i.e. they don't care if the middle class gets gutted, as long as those people have it worse / bigotry.

More subtle, effective, and gets at the underlying tribalism, rather than pigeonholing them as racist, which frankly, they may not be.

Trust me, there are plenty of conservatives who aren't racist in the sense of the term, but fucking hate anyone who isn't a member of their conservative tribe. Here, bigotry is a broader term that includes their ignorant hatred of people who they don't consider members of their own tribe.

Be more inclusive in your argument, by being less specific about who you're arguing with. Plus, they don't get the automatic talking point rebuttal of: no, YOU'RE the real racist / everyone that disagrees with you is a racist.

Some folks just really like their sledge hammers. And, I have to admit, there are certainly times when it's quite satisfying to swing one a couple of dozen times or so.

 

[Svnla]

You go on about Race the same way Svnla goes on about illegals.

I am old school. I believe EVERYONE should follow rules and laws of any sovereign nation, regardless of race/creed/background/<insert anything else>.

No more excuse. Enough is enough.

Anyone has any problem with that? If so, feel free to sneak in any sovereign nation on Earth with a centralize government and then tell me what will happen if you ignore the rules and laws.

 

[Svnla]

Good job ingratiating yourself to these types.

Is that your come back line? Talk about pathetic weak sauce. Keep lying and telling yourself about excel intellectually and academically. LOL x 10000000000.

Oh, one more thing, what will I be (white/black/green/purple/etc.) tomorrow per you and your kind so I can act accordingly.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Cut spending on what, exactly? Cut spending to create jobs? How does that work, exactly?

Cut spending on anything and everything, I don't care. Military would be an awesome place to start. We're spending much more than we take in. That's fine for a while, but it's not sustainable. We have to eventually pay the bills. Will people lose jobs if we cut back on government spending? Yes.