I got flamed :-O

[DrPizza]

Regarding the pledge thread.

At school every morning, after the morning announcements, whoever does the announcements over the intercom system leads the school in the pledge to the flag.

I commented that I require the students to stand up - I find it very disrespectful if they don't. But, I don't require them to actually say the pledge. IMHO, requiring them to say the pledge takes any meaning out of it.

Nonetheless, at the Olympics, when any other country's national anthem is being played, doesn't the crowd stand up out of respect?
When the Star Spangled Banner is being played at a sporting event, don't the people stand out of respect?

I also stated that I would base part of my character judgements of students on the fact that they say/do not say the pledge. Don't even try to give me some hypothetical situation such as "what if one of your students just moved to the US from another country." Half of my students haven't been out of the state, let alone the county. I do have one Chinese student who is now a citizen of the U.S. And, he says the pledge each morning. You have to understand that those couple of students who don't say the pledge have to be told to be quiet during the pledge - very rude and disrespectful in my opinion.

Someone said something like I'd hold it against them for knowing their rights?! Bullsh!t. Yeah, it's their right not to say the pledge. No kidding.

I'm simply saying that if you can't show some simple respect for the flag and the meaning of the flag, and respect for your country, then I'm going to use that in my judgement of you. It's not a huge deal to me, and I'm not going to only base any character reference on that. But, if you were in my homeroom, it'd be the first time I encountered you in high school, and I'm going to start forming an opinion of you.

But, unfortunately, there's a few ATOTers out there who think I'm horrible for holding it against a student for not saying the pledge. My advice to you: you're judged by your actions AND you're judged by your inactions.

 

[FoBoT]

so you are a teacher?

what age/grade?

i think you are right on the money, i hope my kids have teachers with your ideals

 

[Maverick]

I think not saying the pledge is retarded. This country provides people with so many freedoms they take for granted. At least give them their two minutes.

If they have to take out the words "under God" thats fine...thats between them and Him...but at least say the rest of it out of respect for the nation.

 

[ivol07]

Nothing wrong with what you're saying in my opinion.

 

[thomsbrain]

just because something is the tradition and the norm is NOT justification for doing it.

this country has done and is doing a lot of things that i don't support, so i wouldn't say the pledge either. i pay my taxes as payment for the services this country provides me with, but i pledge to no one. to me the flag symbolizes a lot of arrogance, murder, hypocrisy, lies, prejudice, etc. the flag is like religion: so many evil people cloak themselves in it to feign rightousness that it holds no luster for me anymore. judgement goes both ways: i now judge you as someone who supports all the things i listed above.

edit: i should add that i don't think it's out of line to stand. after all, the country pays for their education (assuming you teach in a public school). but i think your judgement of the kids that don't parrot the pledge is off base. and keep in mind that if you let your personal political opinions affect your grading, you are A) a c*ck, and B) setting yourself up for a richly deserved lawsuit.

 

[CanOWorms]

I think it's a little too harsh to possibly destroy someone's life over something so trivial and stupid. It's just the pledge, no big deal. Maybe they interpret it differently than you.

 

Education should be completely unbiased. It will never be achieved though.

So in nazi germany, if you were required to salute hitler with the open flat fist straight out, but not sing the song, wouldn't the message be the same?

 

[erikistired]

i really hope my kids have teachers like you when they get to school age. it's about time someone actually taught respect instead of letting kids run the schools.

 

[Chiropteran]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

I commented that I require the students to stand up...

Nonetheless, at the Olympics, when any other country's national anthem is being played, doesn't the crowd stand up out of respect?

If you are FORCING the students to stand, then they are not doing it out of repect.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
I think it's a little too harsh to possibly destroy someone's life over something so trivial and stupid. It's just the pledge, no big deal. Maybe they interpret it differently than you.

:Q No! I wouldn't destroy a students life over it! But, that's one of their actions/inactions that would help me form an opinion of them.

 

[Red Dawn]

Once a person has pledged his allegence to his country what id the purpose and making him continually do so? Isn't his word good enough?

 

[FoBoT]

hey now teacher pizza, you don't want to be "judgemental" , you can't "judge" a students character based on their actions :roll:

"judging" people on what they do/don't do is so mean :roll:

it isn't fair to "judge" people, everything is gray, there are no set rules/standards, if the student isn't patriotic, you might make them "feel" bad if you make them stand up :roll:

why not just let them wipe their butts with american flag toilet paper?

 

[hjo3]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
and keep in mind that if you let your personal political opinions affect your grading, you are A) a c*ck, and B) setting yourself up for a richly deserved lawsuit.

He never said it affects his grading. He said that he uses their actions during the pledge to judge their character.

 

[MailBoxHead]

Originally posted by: SampSon
Education should be completely unbiased. It will never be achieved though.

So in nazi germany, if you were required to salute hitler with the open flat fist straight out, but not sing the song, wouldn't the message be the same?

That's quite a comparison. Now what is wrong with you?

 

[klah]

:thumbsup:

 

Originally posted by: MailBoxHead

Originally posted by: SampSon
Education should be completely unbiased. It will never be achieved though.

So in nazi germany, if you were required to salute hitler with the open flat fist straight out, but not sing the song, wouldn't the message be the same?

That's quite a comparison. Now what is wrong with you?

Nothing is wrong with me. Extreme analogies grab attention and mabey make people think. Apparantly it didn't work on you, which is to be expected.

It has to do with respect for the country you reside in.
If I don't have respect for it, why should I be forced to go through the motions that show that I have respect for it?

Or, you could just not bother responding to me, just yell out DEY TURK ARR JRBS, and tell me to get out of the country.

 

[AFB]

How do you feel about not saying the under god part but saying the rest of it. ?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: SampSon

Originally posted by: MailBoxHead

Originally posted by: SampSon
Education should be completely unbiased. It will never be achieved though.

So in nazi germany, if you were required to salute hitler with the open flat fist straight out, but not sing the song, wouldn't the message be the same?

That's quite a comparison. Now what is wrong with you?

Nothing is wrong with me. Extreme analogies grab attention and mabey make people think. Apparantly it didn't work on you, which is to be expected.

It has to do with respect for the country you reside in.
If I don't have respect for it, why should I be forced to go through the motions that show that I have respect for it?

Or, you could just not bother responding to me, just yell out DEY TURK ARR JRBS, and tell me to get out of the country.

Dude how can you not respect our country? I can understand not respecting the Dub and our government but our country is all about your fellow citizens!

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: SampSon
Education should be completely unbiased. It will never be achieved though.

So in nazi germany, if you were required to salute hitler with the open flat fist straight out, but not sing the song, wouldn't the message be the same?

I'm not sure what you mean by "education should be completely unbiased." When classes start, I'm as unbiased toward students as I can be. But, during the process, biases will be developed, and I don't believe it's wrong to do so. Students WILL be treated differently based on their behaviors. If I have a student with a 50 average who does all his homework, pays attention during class, takes notes, etc., then I'm going to go out of my way to help that student succeed. If they ask me to stay after school to help them, I will, during my own unpaid time.

However, if a student has a 70 average, doesn't do homework, doesn't pay attention, doesn't take notes (actually, the 70 would be quite a stretch, given those circumstances!), that student has extra small group instruction to help him during the school day but he's rude and won't put forth any effort for the other instructor; then, when that student comes to me to see if I'll stay after school (on my own time) to help him get ready for the test, the response is "you already had your chances, you blew it. Pay attention next time and do your homework, and I'd be willing to help. But, I'm not going to bail you out."
I think that shows a bias against the 2nd student. I gave the first student more opportunities. BUT, at the same time, it's teaching that student something about responsibility. Equally as important (if not more important) as math.

 

[Farfrael]

If you impact your grading of the student because of your personnal views, this is really lame

If you don't, then who cares, just keep your opinion to yourself and shut up.
Oh, and learn to respect other people opinions too

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: SampSon

Originally posted by: MailBoxHead

Originally posted by: SampSon
Education should be completely unbiased. It will never be achieved though.

So in nazi germany, if you were required to salute hitler with the open flat fist straight out, but not sing the song, wouldn't the message be the same?

That's quite a comparison. Now what is wrong with you?

Nothing is wrong with me. Extreme analogies grab attention and mabey make people think. Apparantly it didn't work on you, which is to be expected.

It has to do with respect for the country you reside in.
If I don't have respect for it, why should I be forced to go through the motions that show that I have respect for it?

Or, you could just not bother responding to me, just yell out DEY TURK ARR JRBS, and tell me to get out of the country.

Dude how can you not respect our country? I can understand not respecting the Dub and our government but our country is all about your fellow citizens!

Well said.

 

[notfred]

I pledge allegience to the flag of the United States of America

I pledge nothing to a flag. The flag in and of itself is meaningless. It's what it represents that's important. I'm not going to blindly follow around a peice of cloth just because it's red white and blue.

and to the republic for which it stands.

I generally like that part.

One Nation Under God

I don't beleive in god. Even if I did beleive in god, it's obvious that our nation is NOT following god, regardless of which god you choose.

indivisible

Not really, remember the civil war? This nation was quite divided for several years.

With Liberty,And Justice For All

That's more than a little bit idealistic.

But if I were to take your class, I'd never get a recomendation from you for anything, because I didn't pledge something that I didn't beleive.

 

[Stark]

i was watching that pbs show "colonial house" last night and there was a big conflict between some lazy-ass family who wouldn't go to church on sunday morning with the rest of the people involved (we're talking 20 people max in the community and the point of the show was to recreate the way people lived back in the day). to this one family, sticking up for their rights to reject church and sleep in was more important than any sense of community or duty, and the wife complained about being the victim of religious intolerance.

sounds like you're dealing with a similar situation.

Help, Help! I'm being repressed!

 

[FoBoT]

Originally posted by: Stark

Help, Help! I'm being repressed!

Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

 

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: SampSon

Originally posted by: MailBoxHead

Originally posted by: SampSon
Education should be completely unbiased. It will never be achieved though.

So in nazi germany, if you were required to salute hitler with the open flat fist straight out, but not sing the song, wouldn't the message be the same?

That's quite a comparison. Now what is wrong with you?

Nothing is wrong with me. Extreme analogies grab attention and mabey make people think. Apparantly it didn't work on you, which is to be expected.

It has to do with respect for the country you reside in.
If I don't have respect for it, why should I be forced to go through the motions that show that I have respect for it?

Or, you could just not bother responding to me, just yell out DEY TURK ARR JRBS, and tell me to get out of the country.

Dude how can you not respect our country? I can understand not respecting the Dub and our government but our country is all about your fellow citizens!

That wasn't implied. As you said, I have no respect for the powers that be.

I'm not sure what you mean by "education should be completely unbiased." When classes start, I'm as unbiased toward students as I can be. But, during the process, biases will be developed, and I don't believe it's wrong to do so. Students WILL be treated differently based on their behaviors. If I have a student with a 50 average who does all his homework, pays attention during class, takes notes, etc., then I'm going to go out of my way to help that student succeed. If they ask me to stay after school to help them, I will, during my own unpaid time.

However, if a student has a 70 average, doesn't do homework, doesn't pay attention, doesn't take notes (actually, the 70 would be quite a stretch, given those circumstances!), that student has extra small group instruction to help him during the school day but he's rude and won't put forth any effort for the other instructor; then, when that student comes to me to see if I'll stay after school (on my own time) to help him get ready for the test, the response is "you already had your chances, you blew it. Pay attention next time and do your homework, and I'd be willing to help. But, I'm not going to bail you out."
I think that shows a bias against the 2nd student. I gave the first student more opportunities. BUT, at the same time, it's teaching that student something about responsibility. Equally as important (if not more important) as math.

Unbiased as in national pride has no place in the classroom. At all.
I wasn't speaking about YOU, I was speaking about education in general. Your biases as they pertain to specific students are really non of my concern.

What about a student has a 99 test average, 0-50 homework average and an overall 70 average because of the lack of doing homework? Sleeps all day in class, comes in late, and is completely apathetic about the education because it's a crap that caters to the lowest common denominator.