I hate guns.

[the unknown]

Originally posted by: ric1287
No, that doesn't address my point. Guns for war and CC guns are not the same. Not to mention, thats like saying "a tank is technically a vehichle and in war it killed a bunch of people, so add that to car deaths". Does not work.

A gun does not think, it does not seek out people to kill. Therefore you limit the people who can buy them. A car is the same fucking thing, if you took out all the people in the country that are too stupid to drive, how many less auto-deaths would there be?

There seems to be a lot of mis-communication here. What I'm saying is that a gun is dangerous based on the universal law-- that if everyone owned one, you would not feel safe. It is unlike a car in that you don't use cars to kill people. It's not fair to compare guns to car accidents or heart disease for that matter because you don't use cars or heart disease to kill people. If you compared what people use to kill one another, guns would be at the top.

Secondly, you saying limiting people who can buy them is just proving my point. Why limit something that isn't dangerous? Sadly, it is also extremely opposed by gun owner associations because it's seen as an all or nothing campaign. It's the slippery slope idea. Make it harder to acquire guns is the first step to abolishing guns. Terrible logic.

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: JDub02
Armed people prevent crimes.

lol

Why are you are six times more likely to be mugged in London than in NY City? Why is the burglary rate greater in the UK than it is in the US? Why do criminals surveyed in prisons routinely list armed citizens as a much greater worry than the police?

ZV

NY is a very safe city due to good policing (as I understand it) and is not representative of how dangerous America can be. Aside from that, I'm not really disagreeing with you, I think some citizens should be armed - especially in their homes if they have children.

What I'm talking about is the utterly stupid statement 'armed people prevent crimes'... are you seriously going to defend that?...

Clearly, obviously, armed people commit crimes AND occasionally prevent them. Armed people fight wars for good and for bad, they liberate prisoners, and they slaughter children. There is nothing glorious about the firearm itself - it is a weapon and should be treated with caution, not reverence.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: JDub02
Armed people prevent crimes.

lol

Why are you are six times more likely to be mugged in London than in NY City? Why is the burglary rate greater in the UK than it is in the US? Why do criminals surveyed in prisons routinely list armed citizens as a much greater worry than the police?

ZV

NY is a very safe city due to good policing (as I understand it) and is not representative of how dangerous America can be. Aside from that, I'm not really disagreeing with you, I think some citizens should be armed - especially in their homes if they have children.

What I'm talking about is the utterly stupid statement 'armed people prevent crimes'... are you seriously going to defend that?...

Clearly, obviously, armed people commit crimes AND occasionally prevent them. Armed people fight wars for good and for bad, they liberate prisoners, and they slaughter children. There is nothing glorious about the firearm itself - it is a weapon and should be treated with caution, not reverence.

Many hundreds of thousands, or even millions of times per year (depending which methodology, threshold, and statistics you prefer).

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: JDub02
Armed people prevent crimes.

lol

Why are you are six times more likely to be mugged in London than in NY City? Why is the burglary rate greater in the UK than it is in the US? Why do criminals surveyed in prisons routinely list armed citizens as a much greater worry than the police?

ZV

NY is a very safe city due to good policing (as I understand it) and is not representative of how dangerous America can be. Aside from that, I'm not really disagreeing with you, I think some citizens should be armed - especially in their homes if they have children.

What I'm talking about is the utterly stupid statement 'armed people prevent crimes'... are you seriously going to defend that?...

Clearly, obviously, armed people commit crimes AND occasionally prevent them. Armed people fight wars for good and for bad, they liberate prisoners, and they slaughter children. There is nothing glorious about the firearm itself - it is a weapon and should be treated with caution, not reverence.

Many hundreds of thousands, or even millions of times per year (depending which methodology, threshold, and statistics you prefer).

Way to answer one small part of the post and miss the entire point...

*sometimes* armed people do 'good' things and *sometimes* they do 'bad' things...

The world is not a twisted militant puritan ideal where the righteous knights of 'I own a gun' will save us all from evil.

 

[the unknown]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: JDub02
Armed people prevent crimes.

lol

Why are you are six times more likely to be mugged in London than in NY City? Why is the burglary rate greater in the UK than it is in the US? Why do criminals surveyed in prisons routinely list armed citizens as a much greater worry than the police?

ZV

NY is a very safe city due to good policing (as I understand it) and is not representative of how dangerous America can be. Aside from that, I'm not really disagreeing with you, I think some citizens should be armed - especially in their homes if they have children.

What I'm talking about is the utterly stupid statement 'armed people prevent crimes'... are you seriously going to defend that?...

Clearly, obviously, armed people commit crimes AND occasionally prevent them. Armed people fight wars for good and for bad, they liberate prisoners, and they slaughter children. There is nothing glorious about the firearm itself - it is a weapon and should be treated with caution, not reverence.

Really?... really?
I'm pretty sure the last place you would want guns is in a household with children. Yes "properly stored, used correctly, not dangerous unless in the wrong hands" but people make mistakes. They're human, fallible. One mistake, and a loaded gun end up in the hands of a child. Not good. That's what this thread is about. A guy left a gun in a car and it was stolen. The guy was a gun owned all his life, had the right permits. ect. Permits don't stop people from making bad mistakes.

The second part, I believe, is what the OP was trying to say before all the pro-gun people jumped on him. It's reasonable to not like, or even hate guns.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: JDub02
Armed people prevent crimes.

lol

Why are you are six times more likely to be mugged in London than in NY City? Why is the burglary rate greater in the UK than it is in the US? Why do criminals surveyed in prisons routinely list armed citizens as a much greater worry than the police?

ZV

NY is a very safe city due to good policing (as I understand it) and is not representative of how dangerous America can be. Aside from that, I'm not really disagreeing with you, I think some citizens should be armed - especially in their homes if they have children.

What I'm talking about is the utterly stupid statement 'armed people prevent crimes'... are you seriously going to defend that?...

Clearly, obviously, armed people commit crimes AND occasionally prevent them. Armed people fight wars for good and for bad, they liberate prisoners, and they slaughter children. There is nothing glorious about the firearm itself - it is a weapon and should be treated with caution, not reverence.

Many hundreds of thousands, or even millions of times per year (depending which methodology, threshold, and statistics you prefer).

Way to answer one small part of the post and miss the entire point...

*sometimes* armed people do 'good' things and *sometimes* they do 'bad' things...

The world is not a twisted militant puritan ideal where the righteous knights of 'I own a gun' will save us all from evil.

You are correct, didn't say you weren't. I just pointed out that your view of 'armed people prevent crimes is stupid' is in fact, unsupportable. Armed people DO prevent crimes. They also cause crimes it's true, but that doesn't change the first part.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Chryso

Originally posted by: videogames101

Originally posted by: hiromizu
Guns kill people too easily. The less guns out there the more peace. Let the police do their job, don't do it yourself. It's that simple.

no?

Murderer comes into my house, I'm not waiting around for the cops to show up....

You can't stab him?

ninja stars FTW

 

[hiromizu]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: hiromizu
Great. Fine. You seem like someone who has great judgment but I do not have the same level of confidence in most people. From the management perspective in a world where equality rules, the majority would benefit more otherwise.

The statistics for CCW holders do not support your position. You are free to maintain it, but it is not statistically defensible. People who are legally licensed to carry concealed are significantly less likely to commit crimes (including murder) than the general population.

ZV

I believe you, but from the objective point of view, that's only half of the equation. A CCW holder is more inclined to generate favorable stats to protect their ideologies, hence the stats are probably skewed.

By my rationale yes, people who are licensed are far less likely to commit a crime than the 'general population' however, the 'general population' is diverse and cannot be controlled that easily unless simple laws that applies to everyone is in place. Punishment will attend deviants.

However, look at it from the real perspective of the people that controls you from above: you are part of the 'general population' and thus part of the problem. A new order needs to be put in place so that our arguments become meaningless and powerless because frankly, they are. That new order should be a ban on all firearms.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: the unknown

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: JDub02
Armed people prevent crimes.

lol

Why are you are six times more likely to be mugged in London than in NY City? Why is the burglary rate greater in the UK than it is in the US? Why do criminals surveyed in prisons routinely list armed citizens as a much greater worry than the police?

ZV

NY is a very safe city due to good policing (as I understand it) and is not representative of how dangerous America can be. Aside from that, I'm not really disagreeing with you, I think some citizens should be armed - especially in their homes if they have children.

What I'm talking about is the utterly stupid statement 'armed people prevent crimes'... are you seriously going to defend that?...

Clearly, obviously, armed people commit crimes AND occasionally prevent them. Armed people fight wars for good and for bad, they liberate prisoners, and they slaughter children. There is nothing glorious about the firearm itself - it is a weapon and should be treated with caution, not reverence.

Really?... really?
I'm pretty sure the last place you would want guns is in a household with children. Yes "properly stored, used correctly, not dangerous unless in the wrong hands" but people make mistakes. They're human, fallible. One mistake, and a loaded gun end up in the hands of a child. Not good. That's what this thread is about. A guy left a gun in a car and it was stolen. The guy was a gun owned all his life, had the right permits. ect. Permits don't stop people from making bad mistakes.

The second part, I believe, is what the OP was trying to say before all the pro-gun people jumped on him. It's reasonable to not like, or even hate guns.

People with kids have the most to defend, and the things that require defense the most since they are incapable of defending themselves. There's nothing wrong with growing up with guns in the house, most Americans have for hundreds of years. Hell, even today at least 1 in 3 houses has a gun, and one could comment on the new studies that show rural people are both more likely to own guns and more likely to have more kids - meaning that probably half the kids in America grew up in a house with a gun (and almost none of them were injured).

 

[Agentbolt]

If your idiot friend's car itself was stolen, would you be all pissed off and complaining there's another car on the street? The thief would be WAY more likely to kill someone with the car than a gun. You are hating on the wrong things here.

 

[OCGuy]

@ OP: Wahhhhhhhhhhhh! Waaahhhhhhhhhhhhh! *baby noises* Wahhhhhhhhhh!

Edit: Also, shens. Looks like OT bought it though.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: hiromizu

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: hiromizu
Great. Fine. You seem like someone who has great judgment but I do not have the same level of confidence in most people. From the management perspective in a world where equality rules, the majority would benefit more otherwise.

The statistics for CCW holders do not support your position. You are free to maintain it, but it is not statistically defensible. People who are legally licensed to carry concealed are significantly less likely to commit crimes (including murder) than the general population.

ZV

I believe you, but from the objective point of view, that's only half of the equation. A CCW holder is more inclined to generate favorable stats to protect their ideologies, hence the stats are probably skewed.

By my rationale yes, people who are licensed are far less likely to commit a crime than the 'general population' however, the 'general population' is diverse and cannot be controlled that easily unless simple laws that applies to everyone is in place. Punishment will attend deviants.

However, look at it from the real perspective of the people that controls you from above: you are part of the 'general population' and thus part of the problem. A new order needs to be put in place so that our arguments become meaningless and powerless because frankly, they are. That new order should be a ban on all firearms.

I thought Japanese people were supposed to be smart. Or are they just good at math?

 

[Atheus]

Originally posted by: the unknown
Really?... really?
I'm pretty sure the last place you would want guns is in a household with children. Yes "properly stored, used correctly, not dangerous unless in the wrong hands" but people make mistakes. They're human, fallible. One mistake, and a loaded gun end up in the hands of a child. Not good. That's what this thread is about. A guy left a gun in a car and it was stolen. The guy was a gun owned all his life, had the right permits. ect. Permits don't stop people from making bad mistakes.

The second part, I believe, is what the OP was trying to say before all the pro-gun people jumped on him. It's reasonable to not like, or even hate guns.

Well perhaps I didn't think that through - I just meant that a home invasion in a family household is one of the few occasions where the best option is to kill someone. I didn't mean all parents should have guns. Not at all.

 

[hiromizu]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: hiromizu

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: hiromizu
Great. Fine. You seem like someone who has great judgment but I do not have the same level of confidence in most people. From the management perspective in a world where equality rules, the majority would benefit more otherwise.

The statistics for CCW holders do not support your position. You are free to maintain it, but it is not statistically defensible. People who are legally licensed to carry concealed are significantly less likely to commit crimes (including murder) than the general population.

ZV

I believe you, but from the objective point of view, that's only half of the equation. A CCW holder is more inclined to generate favorable stats to protect their ideologies, hence the stats are probably skewed.

By my rationale yes, people who are licensed are far less likely to commit a crime than the 'general population' however, the 'general population' is diverse and cannot be controlled that easily unless simple laws that applies to everyone is in place. Punishment will attend deviants.

However, look at it from the real perspective of the people that controls you from above: you are part of the 'general population' and thus part of the problem. A new order needs to be put in place so that our arguments become meaningless and powerless because frankly, they are. That new order should be a ban on all firearms.

I thought Japanese people were supposed to be smart. Or are they just good at math?

Throw me a bone here. I went to public school in NYC.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: JDub02
Armed people prevent crimes.

lol

Why are you are six times more likely to be mugged in London than in NY City? Why is the burglary rate greater in the UK than it is in the US? Why do criminals surveyed in prisons routinely list armed citizens as a much greater worry than the police?

ZV

NY does not allow CCW.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Atheus
The world is not a twisted militant puritan ideal where the righteous knights of 'I own a gun' will save us all from evil.

Nor are they going to cause all evil as you have certainly seemed to imply in previous posts.

No-one is arguing that firearms should not be treated with respect. No-one. But there's a world of difference between handling something with respect and banning it outright.

I spent a summer as a parks worker. There were all kinds of tools that we used that were very dangerous if used improperly. Poisons, axes, machetes, chain saws, even a water turbine-driven gristmill/sawmill that had an un-guarded blade sharp enough to send a worker to the hospital for stitches just from walking into it when it was turned off. When running, the un-guarded saw is powered by a 140 hp water turbine and rips without difficulty through entire trees.

Any of those things were a more immediate and direct danger to me than the any firearms I've ever had and yet, because of proper handling I never had a problem with them.

Firearms are the same way. Despite the insistence of some, the vast majority of people are indeed responsible enough to handle firearms. Time and time again it is shown that legal owners of handguns are not a statistically-significant source of problems and yet time and time again the laws focus on restricting what legal purchasers may buy without imposing stricter penalties on people who actually commit crimes with firearms.

ZV

 

[hiromizu]

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: JDub02
Armed people prevent crimes.

lol

Why are you are six times more likely to be mugged in London than in NY City? Why is the burglary rate greater in the UK than it is in the US? Why do criminals surveyed in prisons routinely list armed citizens as a much greater worry than the police?

ZV

NY does not allow CCW.

No..we just tend to be more civilized.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Originally posted by: hiromizu

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: JDub02
Armed people prevent crimes.

lol

Why are you are six times more likely to be mugged in London than in NY City? Why is the burglary rate greater in the UK than it is in the US? Why do criminals surveyed in prisons routinely list armed citizens as a much greater worry than the police?

ZV

NY does not allow CCW.

No..we just tend to be more civilized.

don't get me wrong, i wish i could CC in NY/NJ.

 

[the unknown]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: the unknown

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: JDub02
Armed people prevent crimes.

lol

Why are you are six times more likely to be mugged in London than in NY City? Why is the burglary rate greater in the UK than it is in the US? Why do criminals surveyed in prisons routinely list armed citizens as a much greater worry than the police?

ZV

NY is a very safe city due to good policing (as I understand it) and is not representative of how dangerous America can be. Aside from that, I'm not really disagreeing with you, I think some citizens should be armed - especially in their homes if they have children.

What I'm talking about is the utterly stupid statement 'armed people prevent crimes'... are you seriously going to defend that?...

Clearly, obviously, armed people commit crimes AND occasionally prevent them. Armed people fight wars for good and for bad, they liberate prisoners, and they slaughter children. There is nothing glorious about the firearm itself - it is a weapon and should be treated with caution, not reverence.

Really?... really?
I'm pretty sure the last place you would want guns is in a household with children. Yes "properly stored, used correctly, not dangerous unless in the wrong hands" but people make mistakes. They're human, fallible. One mistake, and a loaded gun end up in the hands of a child. Not good. That's what this thread is about. A guy left a gun in a car and it was stolen. The guy was a gun owned all his life, had the right permits. ect. Permits don't stop people from making bad mistakes.

The second part, I believe, is what the OP was trying to say before all the pro-gun people jumped on him. It's reasonable to not like, or even hate guns.

People with kids have the most to defend, and the things that require defense the most since they are incapable of defending themselves. There's nothing wrong with growing up with guns in the house, most Americans have for hundreds of years. Hell, even today at least 1 in 3 houses has a gun, and one could comment on the new studies that show rural people are both more likely to own guns and more likely to have more kids - meaning that probably half the kids in America grew up in a house with a gun (and almost none of them were injured).

The guns back then, and in the midwest, are used for vastly different purposes than simple 'defense." In urban areas, it's just plain illogical to own a gun for "defensive" purposes for your family. Though I hate citing these ("studies" with agendas, and correlations, which by definition have zero cause and effect relation) there was a study that said "a gun in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a friend or loved-one than to be used against an intruder" has some merit. How many times has an intruder come into your home where you say "damn I wish I had a gun right now"? To me, a gun in a house with kids is a greater risk than an intruder coming into your house meaning to kill all of you.

 

[Baked]

Well, at least we know your stupid friend won't use his gun to kill somebody in a road rage.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: hiromizu

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: JDub02
Armed people prevent crimes.

lol

Why are you are six times more likely to be mugged in London than in NY City? Why is the burglary rate greater in the UK than it is in the US? Why do criminals surveyed in prisons routinely list armed citizens as a much greater worry than the police?

ZV

NY does not allow CCW.

No..we just tend to be more civilized.

Unless there is a "football" game going on... then Raiders fans get scared and run for their lives.

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: Mr Pickles
So my good buddy just got his gun stolen out of his car, along with other stuff. It was his carry weapon. Another gun on the street. This is why I hate guns.

Oh crap why do you have to tell me there is another loose near me....

 

[MrPickins]

Obvious flamebait is obvious.

 

[hiromizu]

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo

Originally posted by: hiromizu

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Atheus

Originally posted by: JDub02
Armed people prevent crimes.

lol

Why are you are six times more likely to be mugged in London than in NY City? Why is the burglary rate greater in the UK than it is in the US? Why do criminals surveyed in prisons routinely list armed citizens as a much greater worry than the police?

ZV

NY does not allow CCW.

No..we just tend to be more civilized.

don't get me wrong, i wish i could CC in NY/NJ.

But you can't and such laws will help in case you become drunk and your judgment becomes impaired or your home is broken into. You can't accidentally shoot someone and you won't be powerless to defend yourself because others will likely not be armed with a gun either.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: the unknown
The guns back then, and in the midwest, are used for vastly different purposes than simple 'defense." In urban areas, it's just plain illogical to own a gun for "defensive" purposes for your family. Though I hate citing these ("studies" with agendas, and correlations, which by definition have zero cause and effect relation) there was a study that said "a gun in the home is 43 times more likely to kill a friend or loved-one than to be used against an intruder" has some merit. How many times has an intruder come into your home where you say "damn I wish I had a gun right now"? To me, a gun in a house with kids is a greater risk than an intruder coming into your house meaning to kill all of you.

The key to keeping guns safe IMO is to teach proper usage, and don't keep them loaded. If possible, store the guns and ammo in separate places or in a safe.

I've been considering getting something like this both to keep my guns safe, as well as to keep important documents in case of a fire:
http://www.costco.com/Browse/P...tial&Nty=1&topnav=&s=1

...if I had a family with kids, it'd be a no brainer.