I hate Steam.

[GodlessAstronomer]

He made two analogies that were completely appropriate: DVDs and books. Instead of responding to these, you responded to an analogy that was quite obviously tongue-in-cheek. This argument style reeks of disingenuousness, which is why I didn't offer a proper response: I won't argue with a weasel that will use a strawman instead of addressing the real points.

 

[Koudelka]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
He made two analogies that were completely appropriate: DVDs and books. Instead of responding to these, you responded to an analogy that was quite obviously tongue-in-cheek. This argument style reeks of disingenuousness, which is why I didn't offer a proper response: I won't argue with a weasel that will use a strawman instead of addressing the real points.

Thats sucks you were forced into Steam if you didnt realize DoW2 required the use of Steam. However, you're one of the first people i've met that didnt know that a long time beforehand.

To your post on destroying replays, that would be DoW2's fault. Not Steam.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

Originally posted by: Koudelka

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
He made two analogies that were completely appropriate: DVDs and books. Instead of responding to these, you responded to an analogy that was quite obviously tongue-in-cheek. This argument style reeks of disingenuousness, which is why I didn't offer a proper response: I won't argue with a weasel that will use a strawman instead of addressing the real points.

Thats sucks you were forced into Steam if you didnt realize DoW2 required the use of Steam. However, you're one of the first people i've met that didnt know that a long time beforehand.

To your post on destroying replays, that would be DoW2's fault. Not Steam.

It's both. Virtually all RTSs with a replay feature will break old replays with updates, but it wasn't a problem back in the CoH/SupCom/RA days because you could just wait and install the patch after you've caught up on the old replays. It's just plain silly that this isn't an option.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
He made two analogies that were completely appropriate: DVDs and books. Instead of responding to these, you responded to an analogy that was quite obviously tongue-in-cheek.

I am equally put off by those analogies; the food one is just more goofy.

Why is this so hard to understand? Steam is a digital delivery system, among other things. Accounts are intended to be associated with a single player, so there is no common need that I can think of to play from two machines at the same time. The situation is pretty specific in which a cohabitant or visitor might want to play something from an account they don't own, on a different machine, while you play something else at the same time. I'd say that's a pretty minor quibble when there are other consumer rights issues that plague Steam.

On this particular issue there is no meaningful analogue when it comes to books or DVDs or any of the other nonsense above, unless you want to feign outrage when you and your girlfriend can't drive to two separate places with the same car, at the same time. You could call it an inconvenience, but that's kind of just how the car works, you know?

This argument style reeks of disingenuousness, which is why I didn't offer a proper response: I won't argue with a weasel that will use a strawman instead of addressing the real points.

Hilarious. I feel I've raised a logical point about a trivial issue and have been offered laughingly strange reasoning in response. I acknowledge that someone might consider this behavior of Steam a minor aggravation, but I think it makes sense and is working as intended to reasonably limit usage (unlike some physical media DRM like SecuROM). The physical medium is an innately different animal, and if you prefer it to Steam's digital methodology then you're welcome to it and I wouldn't argue. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.

And if you don't feel the need to provide a "proper response", then this weasel would prefer you say nothing at all.

 

[Raduque]

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
The situation is pretty specific in which a cohabitant or visitor might want to play something from an account they don't own, on a different machine, while you play something else at the same time.

I'd say offline mode is the answer to this. If one is playing a single player game, login and update it, then go offline mode, then login the second computer.

 

[A Casual Fitz]

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
He made two analogies that were completely appropriate: DVDs and books. Instead of responding to these, you responded to an analogy that was quite obviously tongue-in-cheek.

I am equally put off by those analogies; the food one is just more goofy.

Why is this so hard to understand? Steam is a digital delivery system, among other things. Accounts are intended to be associated with a single player, so there is no common need that I can think of to play from two machines at the same time. The situation is pretty specific in which a cohabitant or visitor might want to play something from an account they don't own, on a different machine, while you play something else at the same time. I'd say that's a pretty minor quibble when there are other consumer rights issues that plague Steam.

On this particular issue there is no meaningful analogue when it comes to books or DVDs or any of the other nonsense above, unless you want to feign outrage when you and your girlfriend can't drive to two separate places with the same car, at the same time. You could call it an inconvenience, but that's kind of just how the car works, you know?

This argument style reeks of disingenuousness, which is why I didn't offer a proper response: I won't argue with a weasel that will use a strawman instead of addressing the real points.

Hilarious. I feel I've raised a logical point about a trivial issue and have been offered laughingly strange reasoning in response. I acknowledge that someone might consider this behavior of Steam a minor aggravation, but I think it makes sense and is working as intended to reasonably limit usage (unlike some physical media DRM like SecuROM). The physical medium is an innately different animal, and if you prefer it to Steam's digital methodology then you're welcome to it and I wouldn't argue. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.

And if you don't feel the need to provide a "proper response", then this weasel would prefer you say nothing at all.

I agree.

 

[4537256]

with sites like google.com, there is absolutly no excuse to not know if an app uses Steam, GFWL, DRM or anything else one may dislike. All info about any released game is answered on search. buyer beware, use some common sense and next time you want to buy a game....Look the d***n thing up on the netz first!
see how simple reality is?

 

[NiKeFiDO]

i download at like 2mb/s sometimes.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer


Do I need to restrict my sentences to one-syllable words? I didn't know that I needed Steam for DoW2 until after I purchased and installed it. The very reason I bought the boxed copy was because I consciously avoid using Steam products.

Try reading, before you buy. Oops!

Fact is, steam is fast to download from. Problem is on your end.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
The situation is pretty specific in which a cohabitant or visitor might want to play something from an account they don't own, on a different machine, while you play something else at the same time.

I'd say offline mode is the answer to this. If one is playing a single player game, login and update it, then go offline mode, then login the second computer.

Definitely. It's an easy workaround that even accommodates the given example. However, as has been pointed out, getting offline mode to work properly can sometimes be a challenge -- especially if you're already offline when you want to activate it. I haven't had need to try recently, so maybe it's gotten better.

Anyway, thanks for pointing this out.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: 4537256
with sites like google.com, there is absolutly no excuse to not know if an app uses Steam, GFWL, DRM or anything else one may dislike. All info about any released game is answered on search. buyer beware, use some common sense and next time you want to buy a game....Look the d***n thing up on the netz first!
see how simple reality is?

not really; how many times have you bought a game because it was on sale - right in front of you at a B&M ?
- if it doesn't say it on the box, that is messed up; and who likes returning stuff - especially "clearance - no returns"
- - - i don't always bring my laptop with me and it takes a lot of time to find out.

Besides, when i bought Lost Planet it wasn't tied to Steam
- or i would have left it on the shelf
- sometime later on - on a reinstall, i had to install Steam to make it work
:|



But now i have to bench Valve/Source/steam games for work
- i don't feel so bad in this case and i choose as few as possible

However, as has been pointed out, getting offline mode to work properly can sometimes be a challenge -- especially if you're already offline when you want to activate it. I haven't had need to try recently, so maybe it's gotten better

it has always been an issue; to be fair, it has got better
- i do ALL offline, except when i know there is a patch

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Originally posted by: apoppin
not really; how many times have you bought a game because it was on sale - right in front of you at a B&M ?
- if it doesn't say it on the box, that is messed up; and who likes returning stuff - especially "clearance - no returns"
- - - i don't always bring my laptop with me and it takes a lot of time to find out.

Besides, when i bought Lost Planet it wasn't tied to Steam
- or i would have left it on the shelf
- sometime later on - on a reinstall, i had to install Steam to make it work
:|

I agree, this is harmful for impulse buyers. Red Irish related earlier how he got burned buying Silent Hill Homecoming retail. Its packaging shows no indication that Steam or an Internet connection is required to play the game. It may be understood that most customers do some initial research before a software purchase these days, but I agree with the sentiment that the use of DRM and activations should be clearly stated on the box so there are no surprises.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy

Originally posted by: apoppin
not really; how many times have you bought a game because it was on sale - right in front of you at a B&M ?
- if it doesn't say it on the box, that is messed up; and who likes returning stuff - especially "clearance - no returns"
- - - i don't always bring my laptop with me and it takes a lot of time to find out.

Besides, when i bought Lost Planet it wasn't tied to Steam
- or i would have left it on the shelf
- sometime later on - on a reinstall, i had to install Steam to make it work
:|

I agree, this is harmful for impulse buyers. Red Irish related earlier how he got burned buying Silent Hill Homecoming retail. Its packaging shows no indication that Steam or an Internet connection is required to play the game. It may be understood that most customers do some initial research before a software purchase these days, but I agree with the sentiment that the use of DRM and activations should be clearly stated on the box so there are no surprises.

Well, damn .. now we're agreeing.

NP. One begins to see when one *starts* bad and things go downhill from there into other steam games, bad CS, broken connections, extreme frustration .. one may have a slightly different opinion of their service [which IS DRM] that a user who has no issues.

What bothers me most, is the great PR, but the slow way they address issues - if at all. They never addressed their core issues; just mitigated them somewhat [imo]

 

[astrosfan315]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
I'm downloading my 3+gb TF2 file at 22.5kbps. Yet another problem with this horribly conceived, terribly executed piece of malware junk.

Discuss.

Then don't use use use it .
Nobody is forcing you to use it.

Actually Dawn of War 2 forced me into Steam. After paying $100 for the retail package which has no mention of Steam anywhere on the box, I was forced to link the game to my Steam account. Apart from the obvious resale issue, this is also extremely annoying because Steam forces me to patch the game. This may sound convenient, but it's a huge pain in the ass because one of my favourite features of DoW2 is the replays, and each patch destroys my ability to watch older replays.

You still have a choice though and that is not use it. If you are really against Steam then don't use anything that supports it and let those publishers know you will not use their products. If you just continue to use the products then nothing changes.

It is the same thing with people that are against DRM claiming they are forced to use the product. No , you are not forced, you can refuse to buy it. By buying it and using it you are telling the publisher, I don't like what you are doing, but I will buy your products anyway. Once you give them your money they have no reason to care what you think.

I have done that with all EA products for the past 4 months. I refuse to buy anything they produce and have emailed and written a letter to them telling them why.

Do I need to restrict my sentences to one-syllable words? I didn't know that I needed Steam for DoW2 until after I purchased and installed it. The very reason I bought the boxed copy was because I consciously avoid using Steam products.

It says it on the back of the box..of course really small print...and at least you didn't have to d/l it, it installed right off the CD.

I get about 700-900 kb/s d/l through steam. Free play weekends though cause it to chuga chuga, plus the TF2 update happened this week.

 

[Red Irish]

Another gripe, which hasn't been addressed yet, involves the fact that, in many instances, Steam maintains other forms of DRM (Securom). Many posters are arguing in favour of one form of DRM or the other; however, in practice, you often find yourself with both.

 

[BFG10K]

Good point, Red Irish.

 

[Raduque]

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
Definitely. It's an easy workaround that even accommodates the given example. However, as has been pointed out, getting offline mode to work properly can sometimes be a challenge -- especially if you're already offline when you want to activate it. I haven't had need to try recently, so maybe it's gotten better.

Anyway, thanks for pointing this out.

The first time you use Offline mode, you do have to be online.. It's hard to change to offline mode when you have no connection, I learned this one the hard way. Once you use it once, though, it's easy to jump back and forth, I do it probably 2-3 times a day on my laptop. If you start Steam without a connection, it'll ask if you want offline mode.

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Do I need to restrict my sentences to one-syllable words? I didn't know that I needed Steam for DoW2 until after I purchased and installed it. The very reason I bought the boxed copy was because I consciously avoid using Steam products.

exactly; the *same* thing happened to me and Lost Planet
- i got stuck with Steam
:|

So you're blaming Steam because you both fail at the Google?

Do better research in the future and you won't have a problem.

 

[Inspector Jihad]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: videogames101

Originally posted by: Azn
I'm not too fond of steam either. I rather have a hard copy.

Which scratches and you eventually can't play? Digital distribution, tyvm.

i have been playing games since the 90s
- i don't have one bad disc

Digital Distribution owns the game; not you

when they go out of business, you got a lot of useless zeros and ones

lol

 

[SlitheryDee]

I like steam. If I didn't have steam, by now I would have lost or irreparably damaged half the games I've purchased through steam and would have had to pick up at a store otherwise. I wish more stuff was available on steam. I actually hated having to order the new Chronicles of Riddick in local media form. Oh and steam seems to max out my connection on some games and have weak speed on others. I guess if it it's a p2p delivery system that might make sense.

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Do I need to restrict my sentences to one-syllable words? I didn't know that I needed Steam for DoW2 until after I purchased and installed it. The very reason I bought the boxed copy was because I consciously avoid using Steam products.

exactly; the *same* thing happened to me and Lost Planet
- i got stuck with Steam
:|

So you're blaming Steam because you both fail at the Google?

Do better research in the future and you won't have a problem.

Sorry Raduque, but I feel that the onus is on the companies to ensure that this information appears in the EULA on the back of the box (in the case of Silent Hill Homecoming it does not) in legible print.

 

[shortylickens]

Originally posted by: videogames101

Originally posted by: Azn
I'm not too fond of steam either. I rather have a hard copy.

Which scratches and you eventually can't play? Digital distribution, tyvm.

I still have CD's from the DOS days.
You need to take care of your stuff. Computers arent cars. They arent built for abuse. The media even less so.

My discs have lasted longer than most of the companies who made them.
What are you going to do when the people distributing your software disperse and form new companies or become burger-flippers? Your game will no longer be playable.

 

[Cienja]

My DL speed varies from 550 to 700 kb/s...

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
Definitely. It's an easy workaround that even accommodates the given example. However, as has been pointed out, getting offline mode to work properly can sometimes be a challenge -- especially if you're already offline when you want to activate it. I haven't had need to try recently, so maybe it's gotten better.

Anyway, thanks for pointing this out.

The first time you use Offline mode, you do have to be online.. It's hard to change to offline mode when you have no connection, I learned this one the hard way. Once you use it once, though, it's easy to jump back and forth, I do it probably 2-3 times a day on my laptop. If you start Steam without a connection, it'll ask if you want offline mode.

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Do I need to restrict my sentences to one-syllable words? I didn't know that I needed Steam for DoW2 until after I purchased and installed it. The very reason I bought the boxed copy was because I consciously avoid using Steam products.

exactly; the *same* thing happened to me and Lost Planet
- i got stuck with Steam
:|

So you're blaming Steam because you both fail at the Google?

Do better research in the future and you won't have a problem.

try reading more than one post when you decide to respond - it has been covered:

there was no research available that showed LP would LATER be linked to steam at the time i bought it
Epic Fail
:thumbsdown:

 

[dguy6789]

Originally posted by: shortylickens

Originally posted by: videogames101

Originally posted by: Azn
I'm not too fond of steam either. I rather have a hard copy.

Which scratches and you eventually can't play? Digital distribution, tyvm.

I still have CD's from the DOS days.
You need to take care of your stuff. Computers arent cars. They arent built for abuse. The media even less so.

My discs have lasted longer than most of the companies who made them.
What are you going to do when the people distributing your software disperse and form new companies or become burger-flippers? Your game will no longer be playable.

It's extremely unlikely that Valve will go under. They are probably one of the least likely game companies to do so. That said, if they were to go out of business, it's more likely than not that they will give users a way to untie their games from Steam. It's Valve we're talking about, not some 2nd rate company. Give them some credit, they've earned it.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: dguy6789

Originally posted by: shortylickens

Originally posted by: videogames101

Originally posted by: Azn
I'm not too fond of steam either. I rather have a hard copy.

Which scratches and you eventually can't play? Digital distribution, tyvm.

I still have CD's from the DOS days.
You need to take care of your stuff. Computers arent cars. They arent built for abuse. The media even less so.

My discs have lasted longer than most of the companies who made them.
What are you going to do when the people distributing your software disperse and form new companies or become burger-flippers? Your game will no longer be playable.

It's extremely unlikely that Valve will go under. They are probably one of the least likely game companies to do so. That said, if they were to go out of business, it's more likely than not that they will give users a way to untie their games from Steam. It's Valve we're talking about, not some 2nd rate company. Give them some credit, they've earned it.

That is exactly what i cannot do

i do not trust them any more than i trust Gabe's big mouth when he promises and fails to deliver .. repeatedly
- i cannot have Faith in a blowhard .. and his company also promises much .. talk .. talk .. talk

if it goes under, no doubt they will blame someone else for stealing their Source code when they lose your games