I hate Steam.

[4537256]

I prefer physical disks. Then crack it so i dont need it and keep them all on a seperate HD. a few games require some BS backup and restore certain files or registries if you reinstall windows, but for the most part imo, its the best, quickest and easiest way to game on the PC platform.
How long does it take the average user to download a game via Steam? I bet not as fast as the 10 minutes it takes me to drive to my local store and back.

 

[Anubis]

I registered a steam accnt when HL2 came out years ago ordered/DLed the game through it. Haven?t played in years, went to steam the other day to see if my accnt was still there as i paid for a product through them. Apparently my steam accnt no longer exists, email addy/accnt name not found.

If I had a hard copy I could just reinstall shit but no?

 

[pmv]

Not a fan of Steam. It's a nuisance, its clearly far more for the benefit of the seller than the purchaser. Gives them control instead of you.

Opened an account because I needed one to install the HL2 someone bought me (supposedly on DVD, though of course it wasn't, really). Since then I've fired up HL2 in offline mode once or twice, but apart from buying Ep2 I've never actually logged into Steam again. They better not have deleted the account from lack of use or something (can they legally do that? When you paid for a game that requires it to reinstall? Isn't that, like, stealing?), because I will probably eventually get Ep3 (would be nice to know how the story ends).

Still, don't know about disks either. I prefer to have a hard copy printed out on huge stack of paper in hexadecimal, so I can just type it back in again with a hex editor to reinstall it (damn, I think I typed 00F9 instead of 10F9 back on page 3,455!)

 

[gtd2000]

I can't say I hate Steam but it does have quite a few issues for me.

Often when joining a server it will hang during the "sending client info" stage, so you quit and try to get into the server and of course the stupid program keeps telling me that my key is already in use (for the server I've already left).

You then need to go to another server you don't want to play in to allow the steam id to be reserevd there then quit and go back to the original server...

TF2 has some regular issues where I join a server and then just as I've selected my category I get that bloody annoying connection to server lost message and I can't move, although I can hear everything that's going on around me - bloody annoying.

The idea of steam is fine but the execution of it isn't great from my experience...

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Originally posted by: gtd2000
I can't say I hate Steam but it does have quite a few issues for me.

Often when joining a server it will hang during the "sending client info" stage, so you quit and try to get into the server and of course the stupid program keeps telling me that my key is already in use (for the server I've already left).

You then need to go to another server you don't want to play in to allow the steam id to be reserevd there then quit and go back to the original server...

TF2 has some regular issues where I join a server and then just as I've selected my category I get that bloody annoying connection to server lost message and I can't move, although I can hear everything that's going on around me - bloody annoying.

The idea of steam is fine but the execution of it isn't great from my experience...

These sound like connection/firewall issues to me.

 

[gtd2000]

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy

These sound like connection/firewall issues to me.

It seems to be a known issue with TF2/Steam - often I can just go into a server and it's fine - it's very intermittent - even with all firewalls set with the program exceptions.

Turning off all firewalls still produces the error - I've read that it could even be the type of router..

Here is an example of the problem - experienced by others

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
Actually Dawn of War 2 forced me into Steam. After paying $100 for the retail package which has no mention of Steam anywhere on the box, I was forced to link the game to my Steam account. Apart from the obvious resale issue, this is also extremely annoying because Steam forces me to patch the game. This may sound convenient, but it's a huge pain in the ass because one of my favourite features of DoW2 is the replays, and each patch destroys my ability to watch older replays.

On 1 hand, the ability to watch replays as long as you like.

On the other hand, the ability to automatically patch your games while you are at work or asleep and not have to come home, find out a new patch got released and sit in queue on some shit ass website with 5000 banners or deal with bit torrent to get your latest update.

Wow, I gotta say, the scale is tipping one way and it's not in your favor. Life is about compromises, it always has been and this is one compromise that, in my mind, and from my perspective having been around before Steam, you'd lose every day of the week.

This thread has turned, as I predicted, into a giant bitch fest. And like previous bitch fests about Steam, it's a small minority that lacks perspective and has special scenarios, like a ridiculously awful internet connection that harkens back to the early 90s, or a strange RTS scenario which they feel should dictate the entire medium.

I can't honestly believe BFG10K brought up the Russia/Asia copies of Orange Box that didn't work over here. Seriously, you are smarter than that. That copy was priced extremely cheap because their economies suck, not so Americans could get the "discount of the century". Just like you wouldn't expect to be able to buy the $5 version of WoW that China gets and use it over here. Can anyone take a wild, I don't know, once in a lifetime guess why that might be the case? Hands? Anyone? I bet you a 6 year old could figure it out.

And yes, your girlfriend being able to play TF2 at the same time you play something else would be cool. And for the millionth time, you seriously cannot guess why this would be a problem? Ok let me spell it out for you. I have 400 games on Steam. With the way you want Steam to be setup, me, my girlfriend, and 398 of my closest friends could all play games that were only purchased once. Not only that, those 398 friends could be a rolling list of people, adding up into the thousands very quickly. Now try and get EA and Ubisoft to release new games on your platform that basically lets everyone play from the same damn account. Do you know why book publishers don't have to worry about this? Because it would take a ridiculous amount of effort on your part to get your book into the hands of a thousand people short of photocopying it and handing it out, which I'm pretty sure they don't like you doing either. When all books go digital, this will be an issue that will have to be addressed.

Steam is a work in progress and hopefully as they come up with better ideas they will implement them, however the problem is you guys don't have any good ideas, you just have bitches. Bitches that are very minute in comparison to how many issues Steam solved that were plaguing the platform before hand. I liked the old Quake days, I really did, It's just a shame that every other person I played with thought they were so fucking smart that they got Quake 1 for free because they knew the CD Key to unlock the free shareware CD for retail mode. Or the retards who photocopied Sierra manuals so they could bypass the early "cd checks" without having to buy their own copy. And yes, I was part of that group, shame on me. But looking back, we honestly couldn't have thought that would always work without a backlash. I'm just glad it's Steam and not Star "I just fucked your PC" force.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: gtd2000
It seems to be a known issue with TF2/Steam - often I can just go into a server and it's fine - it's very intermittent - even with all firewalls set with the program exceptions.

Turning off all firewalls still produces the error - I've read that it could even be the type of router..

Here is an example of the problem - experienced by others

The example you pasted was related to firewalls. Which kind of exemplifies what he posted...

The problem with home networks is that about 75% of the residential router market is absolute garbage. The hardware is garbage, the firmware is garbage, they lack the features and abilities that they should have. On top of that, you have firewalls, now not only do you have to worry about hardware firewalls, you've got firewalls in your virus scanners, in your 3rd party software and in your OS too. This creates a scenario where it becomes very difficult to troubleshoot. Unless the gamer (you) is prepared to do packet tracing type diagnostics, you really don't have much of a shot and especially since it's intermittent and most routers have absolutely awful logging capabilities.

For what it's worth, I don't run a software firewall and my gaming PC is DMZ'd, which basically means every port gets forwarded to it as a default so it acts as my internet facing computer. I've never ever had this occur for me. I'd suggest a similar setup for anyones gaming computer, however I understand some don't want to risk it, but then you get to deal with your own network issues like this.

Next time it happens though, check if your router is rebooting at all also, if your router is crashing it might be something completely different. Normally the router will come back up before anything else times out so you may not even notice it.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Originally posted by: skace
Next time it happens though, check if your router is rebooting at all also, if your router is crashing it might be something completely different. Normally the router will come back up before anything else times out so you may not even notice it.

This was my next thought. I used to have a piece of shit Linksys router that would reboot every time I called up the server list in Counter-Strike, making the game unplayable. It didn't happen in any other game I tried, but it turns out the problem was indeed the router.

I'm not trying to exonerate Steam / Valve, but as you say, skace, a lot of these problems appear to be endemic to poorly configured networks. I didn't get to look into gtd2000's link, but I did google this problem briefly and it does appear at least somewhat widespread. So if Valve might be able to make some change in their server connection logic to alleviate the problem, it might not be a cut-and-dry "buy a new router" or "use DMZ" issue for these folks.

 

[KMFJD]

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy
Definitely. It's an easy workaround that even accommodates the given example. However, as has been pointed out, getting offline mode to work properly can sometimes be a challenge -- especially if you're already offline when you want to activate it. I haven't had need to try recently, so maybe it's gotten better.

Anyway, thanks for pointing this out.

The first time you use Offline mode, you do have to be online.. It's hard to change to offline mode when you have no connection, I learned this one the hard way. Once you use it once, though, it's easy to jump back and forth, I do it probably 2-3 times a day on my laptop. If you start Steam without a connection, it'll ask if you want offline mode.

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer

Do I need to restrict my sentences to one-syllable words? I didn't know that I needed Steam for DoW2 until after I purchased and installed it. The very reason I bought the boxed copy was because I consciously avoid using Steam products.

exactly; the *same* thing happened to me and Lost Planet
- i got stuck with Steam
:|

So you're blaming Steam because you both fail at the Google?

Do better research in the future and you won't have a problem.

Why the fark would he have to google a game to see if it requires steam or not, it should say so on the BOX.

 

[Raduque]

Originally posted by: KMFJD

Why the fark would he have to google a game to see if it requires steam or not, it should say so on the BOX.

DoWII actually DOES say "Internet Connection required for activation". Granted, it doesn't say anything about STEAM, but I guarantee you a 5 second google search would turn it up.

 

[GodlessAstronomer]

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: KMFJD

Why the fark would he have to google a game to see if it requires steam or not, it should say so on the BOX.

DoWII actually DOES say "Internet Connection required for activation". Granted, it doesn't say anything about STEAM, but I guarantee you a 5 second google search would turn it up.

I was at EB looking over new release titles. Until recently I haven't had the time to frequent gaming sites and forums to see what's hot, so I was looking for a recent title that looked like it had potential. I spotted DoW2, remembered loving the first one, checked the box for Steam requirement and bought it. It would have been a tremendous pain in the ass to go home, Google the title, read up and decide whether or not to return to the store to purchase it, especially if I have to do this with every game that I purchase.

 

[Avalon]

Originally posted by: GodlessAstronomer
I'm downloading my 3+gb TF2 file at 22.5kbps. Yet another problem with this horribly conceived, terribly executed piece of malware junk.

Discuss.

You're doing it wrong.

Discuss.

 

[gtd2000]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: gtd2000
It seems to be a known issue with TF2/Steam - often I can just go into a server and it's fine - it's very intermittent - even with all firewalls set with the program exceptions.

Turning off all firewalls still produces the error - I've read that it could even be the type of router..

Here is an example of the problem - experienced by others

The example you pasted was related to firewalls. Which kind of exemplifies what he posted...

The problem with home networks is that about 75% of the residential router market is absolute garbage. The hardware is garbage, the firmware is garbage, they lack the features and abilities that they should have. On top of that, you have firewalls, now not only do you have to worry about hardware firewalls, you've got firewalls in your virus scanners, in your 3rd party software and in your OS too. This creates a scenario where it becomes very difficult to troubleshoot. Unless the gamer (you) is prepared to do packet tracing type diagnostics, you really don't have much of a shot and especially since it's intermittent and most routers have absolutely awful logging capabilities.

For what it's worth, I don't run a software firewall and my gaming PC is DMZ'd, which basically means every port gets forwarded to it as a default so it acts as my internet facing computer. I've never ever had this occur for me. I'd suggest a similar setup for anyones gaming computer, however I understand some don't want to risk it, but then you get to deal with your own network issues like this.

Next time it happens though, check if your router is rebooting at all also, if your router is crashing it might be something completely different. Normally the router will come back up before anything else times out so you may not even notice it.

To highlight the problem further - last night I decided to install Ubuntu on my Dell laptop while I played TF2 on my Gateway - I actually managed to install Ubuntu before successfully entering a game :|

The weird part of the problem is that TF2 does connect to the game - it's just boots you out a few seconds into the gameplaying session...

I think I'll try TF2 on my Dell laptop and see if it plays without interruptions - perhaps the Gateway laptop has something going on?

There isn't any signs of the router crashing, that has happened during one weekend several months ago but that's the only experience I've had of (obvious) router problems.

My router is just behind my screen and I can see the status while playing, so any red lights are very noticeable.

 

[gtd2000]

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy

I'm not trying to exonerate Steam / Valve, but as you say, skace, a lot of these problems appear to be endemic to poorly configured networks. I didn't get to look into gtd2000's link, but I did google this problem briefly and it does appear at least somewhat widespread. So if Valve might be able to make some change in their server connection logic to alleviate the problem, it might not be a cut-and-dry "buy a new router" or "use DMZ" issue for these folks.

I'll freely admit I'm no router/networking expert by any stretch of the imagination but I have enabled the exeptions for the game that are shown in the router gaming section.

I've tried the no firewalls setup (I'm not paranoid) but it really doesn't appear to make any difference.

As mentioned above I'll try gaming with TF2 on the Dell Inspiron 9300 and report back if I can replicate the problem. If not - then it must be something to do with my Gateway 6860 FX....

Cheers for the input guys :thumbsup:

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: skace
This thread has turned, as I predicted, into a giant bitch fest. And like previous bitch fests about Steam, it's a small minority that lacks perspective and has special scenarios, like a ridiculously awful internet connection that harkens back to the early 90s, or a strange RTS scenario which they feel should dictate the entire medium.

Steam is a work in progress and hopefully as they come up with better ideas they will implement them, however the problem is you guys don't have any good ideas, you just have bitches. .

When I complained about Securom, many people attacked me, stating that they had never experienced any problems. It seems I am always part of a small minority.

I will continue to "bitch" about Securom, Steam and other methods of DRM when they inconvenience legitimate users in any way.

Many people have complained about various aspects of Steam on this thread and Valve could take note and improve their service. When and if they do, you don't have to thank us for ensuring that your Steam experience is better.

A "bitching" member of a small minority

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: Red Irish
Many people have complained about various aspects of Steam on this thread and Valve could take note and improve their service. When and if they do, you don't have to thank us for ensuring that your Steam experience is better.

You're right, I won't have you to thank, because people like you and apoppin who refuse to purchase things are not the ones that are keeping the services afloat and functional, it's people like me. I'm backing Valve with my hard earned money and when it improves to a level where you somehow feel it justifies your purchase it will be my funding and people like me who got it there, not people who bitched on forums, said fuck valve, and never paid for anything due to their short sightedness.

I'm running the risk because not only do I believe in the service, I believe in the company.

Originally posted by: gtd2000
I've tried the no firewalls setup (I'm not paranoid) but it really doesn't appear to make any difference.

As mentioned above I'll try gaming with TF2 on the Dell Inspiron 9300 and report back if I can replicate the problem. If not - then it must be something to do with my Gateway 6860 FX....

Gtd, try w/ no firewalls and dmz the machine. If it doesn't bother you then you can only benefit from it. Give your machine a static IP on your router to DMZ it. Make sure you aren't running anything like PeerGuardian. If you have Vista, set TF2 to run in a window, then run the task manager resource monitor at the same time and watch your disk I/O and other resources.

I don't see how a network issue would let you install Ubuntu faster than you can launch TF2. That doesn't sound right at all. I'm hesitant to blame your laptop however you do need to have an idea of your resources. TF2 takes... roughly I don't know, 5 seconds to launch?

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: Red Irish
Many people have complained about various aspects of Steam on this thread and Valve could take note and improve their service. When and if they do, you don't have to thank us for ensuring that your Steam experience is better.

You're right, I won't have you to thank, because people like you and apoppin who refuse to purchase things are not the ones that are keeping the services afloat and functional, it's people like me. I'm backing Valve with my hard earned money and when it improves to a level where you somehow feel it justifies your purchase it will be my funding and people like me who got it there, not people who bitched on forums, said fuck valve, and never paid for anything due to their short sightedness.

I'm running the risk because not only do I believe in the service, I believe in the company.

Calm down.

I own Silent Hill Homecoming and Left4Dead. I have never said "fuck Valve", or anyone else.
You sound like a politician. You won't get my vote.

Your philosophy is to pay without voicing any criticism. Do you really feel that companies have incentive to improve things when, having acquired your money, you fail to voice concerns?

If I ever open a business, I will do my utmost to ensure that you are a client.

EDIT: I really should have said that I have leased Silent Hill Homecoming and Left4Dead.

 

[gtd2000]

Originally posted by: skace

Gtd, try w/ no firewalls and dmz the machine. If it doesn't bother you then you can only benefit from it. Give your machine a static IP on your router to DMZ it. Make sure you aren't running anything like PeerGuardian. If you have Vista, set TF2 to run in a window, then run the task manager resource monitor at the same time and watch your disk I/O and other resources.

I don't see how a network issue would let you install Ubuntu faster than you can launch TF2. That doesn't sound right at all. I'm hesitant to blame your laptop however you do need to have an idea of your resources. TF2 takes... roughly I don't know, 5 seconds to launch?

Oh TF2 launches very quickly - it was just being able to actually play a game due to the red ?Connection to server lost. Disconnect in 29?28? seconds? message.

 

[BFG10K]

Originally posted by: skace

I can't honestly believe BFG10K brought up the Russia/Asia copies of Orange Box that didn't work over here.

Actually they did work ? for many months in fact ? until Valve decided to retroactively disable legitimate CD keys without warning.

Seriously, you are smarter than that. That copy was priced extremely cheap because their economies suck, not so Americans could get the "discount of the century".

So if I live in Thailand/Russia, buy some legitimate games, then later move to the U.S, are you saying it?s justified to force me to repurchase all of those titles because I?m in the ?wrong? zone?

You?re in the U.S and you have a gaming library, right? So if you moved countries, would you expect your entire gaming library to stop working? Would you be happy with being asked to repurchase every title you?ve ever purchased each time you moved countries?

How about your CD collection? Or your DVD collection? Or how about your books? Do all of those need to be repurchased too? :roll:

Seriously, what a load of nonsense. I?m constantly amazed how people are so happy with having their rights pissed away just because ?Steam is great because my dog ate my CD?.

Just like you wouldn't expect to be able to buy the $5 version of WoW that China gets and use it over here.

If you can?t then it?s because of the DRM, much like Steam. That and I doubt Blizzard would retroactively disable previously working CD keys like Valve did.

If I can go to China and buy a CD and not have my CD player say ?wrong zone?, why should games be any different? Because they can due to the DRM.

GOG charges the same amount internationally and there?s no DRM in their titles, and they?re tiny compared to Valve. So don?t tell me it?s not possible.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: Red Irish
Calm down.

I own Silent Hill Homecoming and Left4Dead. I have never said "fuck Valve", or anyone else.
You sound like a politician. You won't get my vote.

Your philosophy is to pay without voicing any criticism. Do you really feel that companies have incentive to improve things when, having acquired your money, you fail to voice concerns?

If I ever open a business, I will do my utmost to ensure that you are a client.

EDIT: I really should have said that I have leased Silent Hill Homecoming and Left4Dead.

I've given criticism to Steam on many occasions, all the way dating back to when it replaced WON. That's completely irrelevant to my point and the point remains.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: BFG10K
So if I live in Thailand/Russia, buy some legitimate games, then later move to the U.S, are you saying it?s justified to force me to repurchase all of those titles because I?m in the ?wrong? zone?

And you think that's what the majority of the offenders were? All immigrants from Russia and Thailand right? No, they were Americans who saw that they could pay a lot less to buy it from another country. And yes, it took Valve awhile to catch on, because they thought they were doing foreign countries a favor, and didn't expect Americans to dig so low. It's not just Valve here, Valve has to defend every publisher on their resource. And as for GOG, this is exactly why GOG is old games. And an international price means that the price is going to be MORE for foreign countries, not less. Did I cover everything?

Oh, if I moved to another country I'm not sure what I'd expect to be quite honest. I'd expect to do research and I'd certainly expect some impact. Back when I started playing WOW, we played with a bunch of UK people. When WOW was released in the UK they repurchased it for the UK and started over. They didn't bat an eyelash at buying WOW twice, as they knew what they were getting into when they bought into the US servers and tied the game to their US account.

Bah.

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: Red Irish
Calm down.

I own Silent Hill Homecoming and Left4Dead. I have never said "fuck Valve", or anyone else.
You sound like a politician. You won't get my vote.

Your philosophy is to pay without voicing any criticism. Do you really feel that companies have incentive to improve things when, having acquired your money, you fail to voice concerns?

If I ever open a business, I will do my utmost to ensure that you are a client.

EDIT: I really should have said that I have leased Silent Hill Homecoming and Left4Dead.

I've given criticism to Steam on many occasions, all the way dating back to when it replaced WON. That's completely irrelevant to my point and the point remains.

When you feel inclined to explain your point, assuming you have one, I'll be more than happy to reply.

 

[n7]

I don't like Steam either.

It's very restrictive DRM; something i've always been very much against.

Sadly, it's obvious most people cannot see this, & are all too happy to profess their love of a very flawed system.

 

[pmv]

Originally posted by: skace

And you think that's what the majority of the offenders were? All immigrants from Russia and Thailand right? No, they were Americans who saw that they could pay a lot less to buy it from another country. And yes, it took Valve awhile to catch on, because they thought they were doing foreign countries a favor, and didn't expect Americans to dig so low.

Not that I am hugely bothered by this import issue, but "doing foreign countries a favor"? Really?

This is a profit-making company we are talking about, doing 'capitalism'. It's not done as a 'favour' its called 'market segmentation'. They want to price things at the price point that leads to maximum profits for each market. The optimum price-point for rich countries is higher than that for poor countries, if they priced them at the high level everywhere they'd get no sales in the poor countries and hence no profit. But if rich country customers can buy things at poor country prices the profits are again sub-optimal.

I'm OK with that, its legitimate commercial logic, but its when similar restrictions are placed for countries that are at roughly the same economic level (such as the US and UK) that I get annoyed. The only reason for doing that (and I'm not specifically talking about Valve or even computer games here) is to price-gouge a market that has poor consumer protection or a surfeit of gullible consumers who have gotten accustomed to being ripped off.

Anyhow, Steam is undeniably bad for consumers but its all 'fair' in the market place, if people don't like it they don't have to use it. If Valve make good enough games people will use it anyway. But I really don't understand why some consumers claim to actually like it. Its a necessary price to pay if you like Valve's products, but its not good in itself.