I have a problem with the ONE or psst physicists, in here pls

[disappoint]

Not God or Neo but The Standard Model.

Hmmm where do I begin...

Ok some background first. This isn't the problem yet.

We have similar formulas for the calculation of forces of electric or magnetic forces and gravitational forces save for a constant or so. That's probably due to the geometry of the universe.

Yet we have very different models for the underlying mechanisms for how they function.

The gravitational "field" is really just warping of the fabric of spacetime, whereas EM fields are theorized as momentum and energy transfer mediated by virtual photons.

To understand these virtual photons picture 2 ice skaters playing catch with a bowling ball. As one throws the ball they are transferring energy to the ball in the form of kinetic energy. The person who catches the ball will absorb this energy and consequently be pushed away from the thrower. In this way electrons for example repel each other. The 2 skaters represent the electrons, and the bowling ball represents the virtual photon mediator. Same for magnets. So now you know how magnets work if you didn't already.

Having 2 totally different mechanisms of function between gravitation and EM seems odd given their similar formulas of calculation for the magnitude of their forces, but that's not the problem.

The problem I have is that we have yet to detect a virtual particle such as a virtual photon. The reason given for impossibility of detection is that virtual particles only exist for extremely short periods of time. Too short a time for our instruments, fine.

Ok so if you know the formula for electric field calculation you know that the denominator is r^2 and so although the force can become very small with ever increasing distance, it never really goes to 0.

Well if the term never goes to zero that means that if there is an electron in space and another one 1 million miles away (arbitrary number) then there still exists a force between them.

If that is the case, how did the virtual photon get from 1 electron to the other traveling less than the speed of light and cover that huge distance in such a short period of time as to be undetectable?

Put another way: How did the virtual photons travel 1 million miles in such a short period of time without exceeding the speed of light c?

Thanks for reading and/or contributing.

 

[Doppel]

Wut

 

[AViking]

Virtual photons? Are you talking about forces?

I think you should ask these questions in your EM class that you're probably taking right now.

What relation is the force between electrons that far away? Has anyone found a reason you would need to calculate that small force? It would be completely overwhelmed by things much closer to it.

 

[disappoint]

Virtual photons? Are you talking about forces?

I think you should ask these questions in your EM class that you're probably taking right now.

What relation is the force between electrons that far away? Has anyone found a reason you would need to calculate that small force? It would be completely overwhelmed by things much closer to it.

Not taking any classes right now. I graduated long ago, though my curiosity remains.

Formula for electric field strength is F=k q Q / d^2

For gravitational field it is F = G m M / r^2

G and k are constants. The ms are masses, the qs are charges and d and r are distances.

So you see the similarity I alluded to earlier.

Reason to calculate? Just curiosity's sake.

 

[oynaz]

I would post this in Highly Technical instead.

 

[Juddog]

Not taking any classes right now. I graduated long ago, though my curiosity remains.

Formula for electric field strength is F=k q Q / d^2

For gravitational field it is F = G m M / r^2

G and k are constants. The ms are masses, the qs are charges and d and r are distances.

So you see the similarity I alluded to earlier.

Reason to calculate? Just curiosity's sake.

Hmm that's interesting; when you posted that I just realized something in regards to Dark Matter. Dark Matter reacts to gravitational fields, but not to electromagnetic fields (thus it being dark, because we'll never be able to see it, but we can see where it exists from it's effects on gravity).

I wonder then if there are similarities here; Tesla had alluded to the universe being made up of fields and it was through manipulation on those fields from whence his theories sprang.

I find the idea of "virtual photons" to not make much sense, in the same way that I find GR predicting that there are "infinitely dense" singularities to not make sense (given there are no "infinites" in the universe, because it throws all equations out of whack - rather it makes more sense to think of the inside of a blackhole to be made up of planck-sized quanta of particles). The other thing about Dark Matter is that Einstein didn't account for it at all, as far as I know.

 

[videogames101]

First I should point out that fields exist in space, even without the presence of a particle to interact with. The electromagnetic field a given charge interacts with was already there. Given the correct distances and time scales, the charge density which generated a given field which a particle interacts may not even exist anymore!

This is because changes in electromagnetic fields propagate at c.

That is to say if some charge were to "appear" one million miles away from some other charge, the charge one million miles away would not be affected by the field of the newly created charge for a period of time.

The fields themselves are infinite which is why your k q Q / d^2 term never reaches zero, but as you've correctly pointed out force carrier particles (formally bosons) are bound by the speed of light, so changes in fields do not propagate instantly, even if they propagate infinitely.

I know the above description is a classical description. If you're looking for an explanation of what makes up an field in terms of quantum field theory (implied by your comment about force carriers) and about the specific mechanics of quantum fields and gauge theory, I'm afraid you'll have to find someone more knowledgeable, as it's over my head. However in that case, trying to use classical equations like F=k q Q / d^2 won't get you far. It's a simplification.

 

[SecurityTheatre]

Well if the term never goes to zero that means that if there is an electron in space and another one 1 million miles away (arbitrary number) then there still exists a force between them.

If that is the case, how did the virtual photon get from 1 electron to the other travelling less than the speed of light and cover that huge distance?

Put another way: How did the virtual photons travel 1 million miles without exceeding the speed of light c?

Thanks for reading and/or contributing.

The wavefront of electromagnetic forces travels at the speed of light (c). The force does not apply instantly, but rather, there is an apparent delay of (d / c) prior to the application of forces.

As for gravity, isn't it proposed that the Higgs has something to do with this? Beyond that, I think I'll leave that particular topic for more qualified peopled.

 

[Juddog]

First I should point out that fields exist in space, even without the presence of a particle to interact with. The electromagnetic field a given charge interacts with was already there. Given the correct distances and time scales, the charge density which generated a given field which a particle interacts may not even exist anymore!

This is because changes in electromagnetic fields propagate at c.

That is to say if some charge were to "appear" one million miles away from some other charge, the charge one million miles away would not be affected by the field of the newly created charge for a period of time.

The fields themselves are infinite which is why your k q Q / d^2 term never reaches zero, but as you've correctly pointed out force carrier particles (formally bosons) are bound by the speed of light, so changes in fields do not propagate instantly, even if they propagate infinitely.

I know the above description is a classical description. If you're looking for an explanation of what makes up an field in terms of quantum field theory (implied by your comment about force carriers) and about the specific mechanics of quantum fields and gauge theory, I'm afraid you'll have to find someone more knowledgeable, as it's over my head. However in that case, trying to use classical equations like F=k q Q / d^2 won't get you far. It's a simplification.

To clarify - do these fields cover physical space everywhere there is space itself? In other words, could the fields be considered as part of the fabric of space / time?

 

[videogames101]

To clarify - do these fields cover physical space everywhere there is space itself? In other words, could the fields be considered as part of the fabric of space / time?

It is convention that physical fields (including the EM field) like we're talking about extend infinitely in space. So yes, I would say they exist "everywhere there is space itself".

However, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "part of the fabric of space / time".

As for gravity, isn't it proposed that the Higgs has something to do with this? Beyond that, I think I'll leave that particular topic for more qualified peopled.

As I understand it, the Higgs Boson is a force carrier particle that gives rise to mass. The field associated with mass is called the Higgs field, and the Higgs boson is the "force" carrier of that field as the photon is the force carrier of the electromagnetic field. There is a separate and hypothesized force carrier called a graviton, which is suspected to be the boson which carries the gravitational force. However, we've never been able to observe a graviton, so it's not known if they actually exist or if gravity operates under a different paradigm than the other 3 fundamental forces.

Gauge Theory is actually one of the topics I have great interest in, but unfortunately do not have the time nor the mathematics background to delve deeply into.

 

[SecurityTheatre]

To clarify - do these fields cover physical space everywhere there is space itself? In other words, could the fields be considered as part of the fabric of space / time?

It helps me to think of "The Universe" as finite. If the big bang was (rounded) 14 billion years ago, then "The Universe" as we perceive it has a radius of 14 billion light years.

After all, the wavefront from "the first thing" would only have reached that far. Whatever (if anything) is beyond that is outside of our dimensional appreciation and therefore (in my opinion) not part of "The Universe".

Relativity describes a "light cone" or "cone of causality" concept, that any thing in the universe cannot interact with other things in the universe outside of this temporal cone, due to limitations on the speed of light.

If we presume the "light cone" from the big bang to be a hard border that defines the edge of "space time", then you don't necessarily have to conceive of the Universe as endless in any manner that we actually comprehend, but instead, a sphere of approximately 28 billion light years in diameter.

Obviously, this is not a flawless assessment, but it helps me when I'm thinking about big concepts like this with my feeble human brain. :-D

 

[Juddog]

As I understand it, the Higgs Boson is a force carrier particle that gives rise to mass. The field associated with mass is called the Higgs field, and the Higgs boson is the "force" carrier of that field as the photon is the force carrier of the electromagnetic field. There is a separate and hypothesized force carrier called a graviton, which is suspected to be the boson which carries the gravitational force. However, we've never been able to observe a graviton, so it's not known if they actually exist or if gravity operates under a different paradigm than the other 3 fundamental forces.

Gauge Theory is actually one of the topics I have great interest in, but unfortunately do not have the time nor the mathematics background to delve deeply into.

To clarify then - if the Higgs field exists, and the Higgs boson is the force carrier, in which of the classical forces would this field resides? e.g. Strong Force, Weak Force, Electromagnetic Force, Gravitational force?

 

[Juddog]

It helps me to think of "The Universe" as finite. If the big bang was (rounded) 14 billion years ago, then "The Universe" as we perceive it has a radius of 14 billion light years.

After all, the wavefront from "the first thing" would only have reached that far. Whatever (if anything) is beyond that is outside of our dimensional appreciation and therefore (in my opinion) not part of "The Universe".

Relativity describes a "light cone" or "cone of causality" concept, that any thing in the universe cannot interact with other things in the universe outside of this temporal cone, due to limitations on the speed of light.

If we presume the "light cone" from the big bang to be a hard border that defines the edge of "space time", then you don't necessarily have to conceive of the Universe as endless in any manner that we actually comprehend, but instead, a sphere of approximately 28 billion light years in diameter.

Obviously, this is not a flawless assessment, but it helps me when I'm thinking about big concepts like this with my feeble human brain. :-D

This has been my understanding as well; the problem I have with this theory though is that if parts of the universe are accelerating away from us at a faster-than-light speed, given General Relativity, then the light emitted from said material would never reach us, so how would we know if something was out there or not past that point?

 

[SecurityTheatre]

This has been my understanding as well; the problem I have with this theory though is that if parts of the universe are accelerating away from us at a faster-than-light speed, given General Relativity, then the light emitted from said material would never reach us, so how would we know if something was out there or not past that point?

Nothing is expanding "faster than light speed".

An the effects of special relativity make it so that light leaving an object travelling away from you at the speed of light (or near it) still radiate light backwards at the apparent speed of light due to differences in the relative time compression inherent in relativity.

 

[Juddog]

OK in answer to my question in post #12:
Photons are gauge boson of the electromagnetic force
Gluons are the gauge bosons of the strong force
W an Z bosons mediate the weak force
the gauge boson for gravity is ?

So there are 4 forces, which all interact via the Higgs field; so if we can detect a Higgs Boson, why can't we detect the gauge boson for gravitation?

 

[SecurityTheatre]

OK in answer to my question in post #12:
Photons are gauge boson of the electromagnetic force
Gluons are the gauge bosons of the strong force
W an Z bosons mediate the weak force
the gauge boson for gravity is ?

So there are 4 forces, which all interact via the Higgs field; so if we can detect a Higgs Boson, why can't we detect the gauge boson for gravitation?

Gravitons seem to be this boson, but I gather they're hard (read: impossible) to detect.

According to wikipedia:

Unambiguous detection of individual gravitons, though not prohibited by any fundamental law, is impossible with any physically reasonable detector.[13] The reason is the extremely low cross section for the interaction of gravitons with matter. For example, a detector with the mass of Jupiter and 100% efficiency, placed in close orbit around a neutron star, would only be expected to observe one graviton every 10 years, even under the most favorable conditions. It would be impossible to discriminate these events from the background of neutrinos, since the dimensions of the required neutrino shield would ensure collapse into a black hole.

 

[disappoint]

To clarify then - if the Higgs field exists, and the Higgs boson is the force carrier, in which of the classical forces would this field resides? e.g. Strong Force, Weak Force, Electromagnetic Force, Gravitational force?

Not really a question of if anymore since the discovery of the Higgs Boson but to answer your question:

The Higgs Field is an invisible energy field that exists throughout the universe. The field is accompanied by a fundamental particle called the Higgs Boson, which it uses to continuously interact with other particles. As particles pass through the field they are endowed with the property of mass, much as an object passing through treacle (or molasses) will become slower.


Although apparent, mass is not generated by the Higgs field, as creation of matter or energy would conflict with the laws of conservation; mass is, however, transferred to particles from the field, which contains the relative mass in the form of energy. Once the field has endowed a formerly massless particle the particle slows down because it has become heavier.
If the Higgs field did not exist particles would not have the mass required to attract one another, and would simply float around freely at light-speed.
The process of endowing a particle with mass is known as the Higgs Effect.


http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_field

 

[disappoint]

I edited the OP and added something important in bold that clarifies the question at hand.

The question is : How do virtual photons travel 1 million miles in such a short period of time without exceeding the speed of light c?

 

[Biftheunderstudy]

The virtual particles are limited by the speed of light, just like real ones. Relativity and quantum mechanics are quite compatible (Dirac?), for a solution to the EM problem you need to use the retarded time.

Maybe this quote from the wikipedia page on virtual particles will help.

"The term is somewhat loose and vaguely defined, in that it refers to the view that the world is made up of "real particles": it is not; rather, "real particles" are better understood to be excitations of the underlying quantum fields. Virtual particles are also excitations of the underlying fields, but are "temporary" in the sense that they appear in calculations of interactions, but never as asymptotic states or indices to the scattering matrix. As such the accuracy and use of virtual particles in calculations is firmly established, but their "reality" or existence is a question of philosophy rather than science."

It is important to note that the discovered Higgs particle is *not* a virtual particle, but an excitation of the Higgs field and hence, real.

 

[SecurityTheatre]

I edited the OP and added something important in bold that clarifies the question at hand.

The question is : How do virtual photons travel 1 million miles in such a short period of time without exceeding the speed of light c?

They don't. Saying it again (as I did in post #8), the wavefront of an electromagnetic field propagates at the speed of light, not faster.

It does not apply instantaneous force to a distant object.

Along the same lines, if the sun were destroyed instantly, we would continue to experience both its heat and light, as well as its electromagnetic (and probably gravitational) fields for the 8.5 minutes it took for the changes to propagate to Earth.

 

[PowerEngineer]

OP, you're not the first person to wonder why the explanations for EM do not also involve some sort of dimensional distortions as gravity does in general relativity. Back in 1919, Theodor Kaluza tried adding dimensions to come up with a similar EM solution but it didn't pan out. It's my understanding, however, that string theory is trying to describe (and unite) all the forces amongst its ten dimensions.

 

[PrincessFrosty]

My basic understanding of this is that in particle physics and the standard model, the idea of exchange of virtual particles to represent exchange in charge/force is just a way of explaining what is occurring, I'm not completely sure what evidence there is to suggest that in reality this is the actual mechanics behind the phenomenon. The math just seems to (largely) work, kind of like string theory.

From what I understand these models describe the macro behavior and fit all the data, but are not directly observed. My own personal take on this is that we probably don't understand the exact physical mechanics behind the interaction but rather build up a picture of what is happening by interpreting the maths, ideas like virtual particles are just a crutch.

If indeed the world does have more than 4 dimensions like string theory seems to suggest it could be that we simply have no good way of imagining these micro interactions as they truly exist.

Oh and to answer the question about force traveling faster than C, they don't. Interactions like gravity propagate no faster than the speed of light.

 

[Z15CAM]

The Higgs Boson Theory is not only responsible for giving particles mass but it is also creates Micro Black Holes that account for Photons to travel faster then the speed of light.

 

[SecurityTheatre]

The Higgs Boson Theory is not only responsible for giving particles mass but it is also creates Micro Black Holes that account for Photons to travel faster then the speed of light.

Wait, what?

Citation, please....

Other than some discussion that the Higgs Theory isn't entirely incompatible with the idea of micro black holes, I've seen no such evidence.

 

[disappoint]

I edited the OP and added something important in bold that clarifies the question at hand.

The question is : How do virtual photons travel 1 million miles in such a short period of time without exceeding the speed of light c?

Ok I still need to further clarify my question because no one seems to understand what I'm asking.

Most of you are re-iterating that the speed of light is the maximum. I realize that and that is not what is in dispute.

Let's say you have 2 electrons separated by 1 trillion miles of empty space. Presumably the action between the two is mediated by virtual photons that travel at the speed of light and no faster.

How did the virtual photons travel 1 trillion miles at the speed of light if they only hang around for infinitesimally small periods of time?

There is not enough time to travel such a large distance since the speed of light is their maximum speed and they only exist for a short period of time.

They would have to exist for longer periods of time to travel that far at the speed of light and if they existed for long periods of time we would be able to detect them.

I believe I have a solution but I'd like further discussion and an understanding of what I'm asking before I post my possible solution to this problem.

Thanks for the discussion so far you guys are great to bounce ideas off of.