I just love Ubuntu 7.10

nyker96

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2005
5,630
2
81
Just put it on last night, and man, once the new glx driver for nvidia is installed, I push up the eye candy, I have to say, ubuntu looks and feels even better than the new Vista I tried on my friend's rig. It just feels right. Too bad I used a few software that's win only or else, I can go all ubuntu. It's just impressive.
 

AnthroAndStargate

Golden Member
Oct 7, 2005
1,350
0
0
I wish you could game on it And use MS Outlook because I need Calandar/Exchange server.

Otherwise I would switch. Sigh

Linux people just dont understand that some of us CANT switch and we cant deal with crappy ports or half working software.
 
Jun 4, 2005
19,733
1
0
You can play games on it, just not all of them. Well, I can't even really say that; you can play ANY game, but likely at a reduced framerate.
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
0
71
Originally posted by: AnthroAndStargate
I wish you could game on it And use MS Outlook because I need Calandar/Exchange server.

Otherwise I would switch. Sigh

Linux people just dont understand that some of us CANT switch and we cant deal with crappy ports or half working software.

I'm not sure how feasible it is for you, but Evolution, installed by default, is supposed to be groupware. Why don't you try the LiveCD before nixing it completely (no pun intended)?

And you can run any app from VMware perfectly except for games. It is basically a mini-Windows environment inside your Linux. It's free assuming you already have a bought copy of XP. You just treat it like a mini PC: format its disk, install windows, install VM drivers, and use it. It works great.

Many people have gotten older games to work with varying success, or maybe even newer ones using supported software that costs a bit, like Cedega.

If you want to game it's recommended you stick to native Linux games or dual-boot w/ Windows, but I can't think of a single 'app' that VMware won't work with.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
Linux people just dont understand that some of us CANT switch and we cant deal with crappy ports or half working software.

How is it Linux people's fault that MS won't port Office or game devs won't port their games?
 

nyker96

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2005
5,630
2
81
Originally posted by: AnthroAndStargate
I wish you could game on it And use MS Outlook because I need Calandar/Exchange server.

Otherwise I would switch. Sigh

Linux people just dont understand that some of us CANT switch and we cant deal with crappy ports or half working software.

Yes, me too, but I guess linux isn't gaming oriented, so I keep xp and ubuntu on, one for work other for games. perfect combo. of course I understand some of you wishing one can do all preferable ubuntu, but hey I'm just glad linux has gotten so far to be challenging windows/macs on the graphical interface end. THat's a big step forward. In fact just been praising ubuntu to a friend and he wants a copy to try out tomorrow. Hey who knows in a few year when ubuntu spread to more people, more company will indeed be happy to provide support for the platform. but probably not MS since they got windows to support and won't support anything else I'm sure.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
Linux IS very game oriented. Unix's original sole purpose in life was to play games.

Options for customization, openness, and performance that Linux provides is perfect for games and pretty much anything else that demands high performance and customization.

It's the huge proprietary game makers that are not Linux oriented. They are big fans of closed source and their partnerships with Microsoft make them a crapload of money. They do not want that to change. Linux represents free software and it's virtually impossible to impliment any form of effective DRM for Linux. (beyond the fact that the basic technical concept of eforcable DRM is fundamentally flawed). Microsoft is not going to support Linux. EA is not going to support Linux. Steam's only purpose in life is to provide effective DRM controls over it's customers, etc etc.

The only people who do support Linux are people like ID, who make their living off of having a relatively open code base (and licensing it out to other people to use in their own proprietary games) and they like Linux/Unix and many many smaller independant gaming companies that exist seperate from the Microsoft marketting monolith.

Gamers have been bitching for years to people who make games like WoW to have a Linux version.. and guess what? The game makers don't _care_. They don't give a crap about their customers and they never listenned to them. They know they can release whatever bloated game with fancy graphics they want and if they buy enough magazine ads to ensure good reviews then fans will come running, money in hand, and will work their asses off to play the game no matter what is the cost in terms of hardware, software, or freedoms.

The best you can do for a lot of games is to pay to use Cedega. Cedega is a gaming oriented offshoot of Wine and they provide support for DRM drivers on Linux and sometimes these bigger game companies companies will work with them to ensure compatability with Linux using their wine-like approach. They do a good job. People get mistaken with Cedega sometimes and they'll to install the 'free' version of Cedega in a attempt to treat it like Wine.. which rarely works. They have GUIs for automaticly downloading and mananging multiple different versions of their software, and managing, launching and installing games. It's all very easy.
 

nova2

Senior member
Feb 3, 2006
982
1
0
regarding Id software and Linux:
http://beyond3d.com/content/news/462

some quotes
"Todd Hollenshead, id Software's CEO, that reveals id Software and John Carmack are no longer as committed to Linux as they have been"

"Despite this, the game will ship for the Mac using OpenGL."


Sure multiplatform games can be great but might not be worth it for the devs, more QA, more bugs, more time and money needed.

In the end, some devs do it and many don't.
 

Worlocked

Senior member
Nov 9, 2005
289
0
0
Where are the open source game developers? Seriously, this is it. This is the entire open source game list. 3/4 of which are tired ass quake clones, most of the rest are crappy windows 3.1/dos era throwbacks...

For how many years do Linux GOTY awards have to feature Tux Racer and UT? Another decade or so?
 

xtknight

Elite Member
Oct 15, 2004
12,974
0
71
Originally posted by: nova2
regarding Id software and Linux:
http://beyond3d.com/content/news/462

some quotes
"Todd Hollenshead, id Software's CEO, that reveals id Software and John Carmack are no longer as committed to Linux as they have been"

"Despite this, the game will ship for the Mac using OpenGL."


Sure multiplatform games can be great but might not be worth it for the devs, more QA, more bugs, more time and money needed.

In the end, some devs do it and many don't.

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=302231&cid=20671657
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
Where are the open source game developers? Seriously, this is it. This is the entire open source game list. 3/4 of which are tired ass quake clones, most of the rest are crappy windows 3.1/dos era throwbacks...

Probably because games require art as well as code and programmers aren't artists so they either take something that there's already art for like Transport Tycoon or they put almost all of their effort into the game engine and just add some crap art to make sure it works.
 

Worlocked

Senior member
Nov 9, 2005
289
0
0
Originally posted by: Nothinman
Probably because games require art as well as code and programmers aren't artists so they either take something that there's already art for like Transport Tycoon or they put almost all of their effort into the game engine and just add some crap art to make sure it works.

I find it extremely hard to believe that there are more programmers out there than artists...
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
Open source gaming just hasn't happenned yet. That's all.

This stuff takes time and right now if your serious about gaming your only choice is Windows, so you make yourself following the mindset of that platform. Lots of people have their own small games and little things and they don't open them up because that's just not how it's done. Even if their goal is not to make money or anything like that they are just following what they perceive software should be.. and that's closed source were developers and users are two different groups.

With Linux the developers and users are much more mixed. Hopefully with things like Ubuntu getting more and more usable and popular with each release then that will help people understand the open source mindset and approach to software development.

A lot of the original Linux developers come from the oldschool unix or computer science background were access to source is a matter of course. To them closed source was not the rule like it is with windows.

With games though this is a entire different mindset. Your coming from closed platforms.. Atari, Nintendo, Sega, Playstation, Windows, etc etc. With this sort of platform your programming model is just to tunnel the user from point A to point B to point C. The more flexible something is, the more open it is, the more likely they'll run into bugs and problems.. It's much better to just isolate the user from the software as much as humanly possible and concentrate on the 'game'. It's totally different way of looking at things. Minimal code reuse unless your doing a sequel.


That is if you want a open source game that is not just a 'crappy quake clone' then you'll have to do something to help bring that about. That's the stage were things are at right now.

People have the low-level things taken care of. Ogre3D, CrystalSpace are two examples. You don't have to worry about rendering or anyting like that. Now people need to make the stories and art and stuff like that to make the games.

 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
I find it extremely hard to believe that there are more programmers out there than artists...

I don't, being able to program is something you can learn while creating content isn't.

And either way it's probably just that there are more programmers interested in open source and sharing code while artists want more control over their work.
 

Worlocked

Senior member
Nov 9, 2005
289
0
0
Originally posted by: Nothinman
I find it extremely hard to believe that there are more programmers out there than artists...

I don't, being able to program is something you can learn while creating content isn't.

And either way it's probably just that there are more programmers interested in open source and sharing code while artists want more control over their work.

Then why is every failed mod out there failing because "we need a coder so we can put all our art into a game"? Go look at every mods page out there, they are all clamoring for a coder, but have plenty of models and what not to show off in the media page...

...and how is creating content not an ability you can learn? It's no harder than coding when you're dealing with even quasi-real world objects.

No, not everyone can be picaso... but just about everyone can learn max/lw/blender and model some weapons and objects...
 

DarkThinker

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2007
2,822
0
0
Originally posted by: Nothinman
Linux people just dont understand that some of us CANT switch and we cant deal with crappy ports or half working software.

How is it Linux people's fault that MS won't port Office or game devs won't port their games?

So true.

As far as gaming goes, when I first started using Linux years ago (Fedora 2), I setup my windows gaming machine in dual boot. Linux was hard for me at the beginning, many things looked and functioned differently to me, it wasn't easy. Little by little, I started to use my Linux partition for programming, and everything that is multimedia and internet related it was just safer and smoother (without the bloated anti-spyware and anti-virus softaare). Meanwhile my gaming was done on XP.
A little bit after that, I started to notice that I was delaying my gaming urges to use Linux more. I finally reached the conclusion that I was enjoying tweaking my Linux setup more than I did playing games on windows. At the end I started to use open source games in order to satisfy whatever fps gaming needs I had and it wasn't long before I wiped away the windows partition, sold my expensive gaming hardware($1000+), saved myself the agony of going through the usual upgrade cycles and all was good in Linux land
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
Then why is every failed mod out there failing because "we need a coder so we can put all our art into a game"? Go look at every mods page out there, they are all clamoring for a coder, but have plenty of models and what not to show off in the media page...

No idea, maybe they just need to start looking in the right places. There are obviously developers out there interested in game development since there are FOSS games, the two just need to start working together.

...and how is creating content not an ability you can learn? It's no harder than coding when you're dealing with even quasi-real world objects.

No, not everyone can be picaso... but just about everyone can learn max/lw/blender and model some weapons and objects...

Speaking as a person with little/no artistic ability I have to disagree. Sure I can learn how to properly use blender but that doesn't mean that I can come up with something that doesn't suck in it.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
They are indeed looking in the wrong places.

Lots of open source gaming efforts have enough coders and few artists.

Art is very different from Code. I can do both, but I am much better on the art stuff then the code stuff.

What people doing those mods have to realise is that coders are not going to put a shitload of time into something they can't use for anything else. If they think they can get people to make something that is ultra specific for their game or whatever then they are mistaken.. they have to put the effort into using pre-existing stuff and modifying that to work. Then if coders can use that code in other games and other things then they are much more likely to help out. Hence the need for these mods to use open source licenses... which is impossible because the vast majority of them are going to be all based on proprietary software at their core.

All this open source, code reuse stuff will probably reduce the performance of the code somewhat, make it more crusty, and it'll make it much more difficult to do the OMG-GPU-SHADER latest-greatest stuff, but it's just how it works. At the end it'll work out to a net gain.

Now that's a coder's perspective.

From a Artist's perspective you're, of course, going to want to make something that is cool and is cutting edge. Art reuse is not that important... sure you can do some sound effects or mood music and some textures and models and such.. but that's only small things. For each game it's going to be pretty much a one-off thing. Each character, each storyline, each adventure you create is going to be for one part of one game. The skills you learn are what you transfer from one thing to another.. not the actual art.

Art is expressed in the actual act of creation and in the mind of the user's/observer's.. not in the end product, not the object.

With art you can't do something like make a mathmatical standard for a nice looking sunset and then put that in a 'art library' were people can add some special strokes and make all sorts of different nice looking sunsets.. Each image is going to be unique.

But with code you'd figure out how to load a image into a game and make that generic and put it in a library. Then anybody can use that library to load any image of a sunset they want.

There is a lot of overlap, but they are fundamentally different things with different approaches.

It's kinda like the difference between building race cars and being a race car driver, except bigger.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
I'm on the artist side of things.
I have worked on games since before half life 1 shipped.
At that time I was good friends with yahn bernier when he was working on bsp, a level editor, one of the best at the time.
Around that time there was a lot of small developers, lots of people with creative ideas, and people who were producing some quality stuff for the masses.

What happened ?
Money

The small developers got gobbled up by the bigger ones. I remember when Yahn went to work with the half life team and how I hated it, but was happy for him at the same time. He could no longer afford to work on the bsp editor and so that project died. Like many others.

The other problem now is scope.
People are no longer satisfied with a 2d scroller or games like tetris.
They want games with cinematics, deep stories, 3d environments, real time physics, enhanced multiplayer.

That takes lots of resources and lots of people to pull it off.
If your an independent developer you don't have the cash flow to be able to spend a year or two producing a title. I know many friends that have lost everything they owned because they banked on a project paying off and it didn't.

Even modding of existing games is shrinking.
Game engines are getting more complex.
Its no longer possible to do a good mod with just the level editor shipping with the game. Take a look at what tools are needed to mod UT3.
There are about 6 different applications to use and learn.

I'm still holding out doing freelance and working as an independent artist, but I have seriously been considering taking a full time job with a studio. Its just too hard to be an indepenent anymore.

 

indigo196

Member
Oct 14, 2007
47
0
0
Originally posted by: Nothinman
Linux people just dont understand that some of us CANT switch and we cant deal with crappy ports or half working software.

How is it Linux people's fault that MS won't port Office or game devs won't port their games?

Its not.

Then again he never said it was.

He just asked for Linux people to understand that not everyone can make the switch.
 

indigo196

Member
Oct 14, 2007
47
0
0
I take umbrage to the idea that your only choice for gaming is Windows.

I have been a PC Gamer since before Windows and I have to say that I am increasingly looking at going with some flavor of *nix (Gentoo, Debian, Ubuntu and BSD are all possibilities being explored) and then adding a console.

Why?

  • I am sick of having to upgrade my video card every two years to enjoy games as they are designed
  • I am sick of buying a crap game and being stuck with it
  • I am sick of the lack of games for the PC and those that are coming out primarily being repeat games with updated graphics
  • I am sick of paying MS lots of money for an OS when other decent alternatives are out there; Vista was uber-expensive

I mean take the $259 for the upgrade to Ultimate add to that the $279 you pay for a mid-uber-video card (8800 GTS when I built back in April) and you can get a very nice console... that is $529 just in those two costs alone.

Then you can have a very good OS for work and a quality / stable / level gaming platform for 3-5 years.

That assumes you like console games; which in general I do not.

But for many that combo is very possible.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
I'm shocked anybody actually got Ubuntu to work properly. I've tried it on 3 separate computers, and it can't see wireless cards in any of them. No internet = not a real operating system. And with that, one more burned CD is thrown in the garbage
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
I've tried it on 3 separate computers, and it can't see wireless cards in any of them. No internet = not a real operating system.

Wireless != the Internet. "Works for me".
 
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