I Love Immigrants

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Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
This is where we are coming from:




Set in the environment of ethnic and racial paranoia that defined the early 1940s in Los Angeles, California, the "Zoot Suit Riots" were a defining moment for Zoot Suiters and the Mexican American community. The ethnic populations of California as a whole, and Los Angeles in particular, were under siege. In March and April of 1942, the entire Japanese and Japanese American population on the West Coast of the United States were deported to "relocation centers" (mild euphemisms for concentration camps) located in the interior of the U.S.. Without the Japanese Americans around to focus the locals' racial paranoia, Los Angeleans began to look toward the Zoot Suiters. A "Mexican Crime Wave" was announced by local newspapers (precursors to today's tabloids and pioneers in "yellow journalism"), and a special grand jury was appointed by the city of Los Angeles to investigate.

Around the same time, the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department also decided to investigate and appointed E. Duran Ayres to head their Foreign Relations Bureau. And though Mr. Ayres accurately identified much of the active discrimination that was occurring against the "Mexican element", he drew some startling conclusions which were presented to the grand jury:

"He stated that Mexican Americans are essentially Indians and therefore Orientals or Asians. Throughout history, he declared, the Orientals have shown less regard for human life than have the Europeans. Further, Mexican Americans had inherited their 'naturally violent' tendencies from the 'bloodthirsty Aztecs' of Mexico who were said to have practiced human sacrifice centuries ago. At one point in his report Ayres even compared the Anglo to a domesticated house cat and the Mexican to a 'wild cat,' suggesting that the Mexican would forever retain his wild and violent tendencies no matter how much education or training he might receive.

On the night of August 1, 1942, zoot suiter Henry Leyvas, 20, and some of his friends were involved in a fight with another group of pachucos at the Williams Ranch by a lagoon. Later the next morning, a man named José Díaz was found bleeding and unconscious on a road near the lagoon (later named the Sleepy Lagoon by a reporter). He later died. The autopsy revealed that Mr. Díaz was drunk at the time of death and that his death was the result of blunt head trauma. Though one medical examiner stated that his injuries were consistent with that of being hit by a car, Henry Leyvas and 24 members of the "38th Street gang" (as the group had been dubbed by the local tabloids) were arrested and charged with the murder of José Díaz. Led by the local tabloids, a public outcry for "justice" and vengeance against the zoot suiters caused the Los Angeles Police Department to conduct a roundup of over 600 people on the nights of August 10th and 11th. All were charged with such things as suspicion of assault, armed robbery, etc., and 175 people were held on these charges. Of the 600 plus people arrested during this roundup, every single one was a Spanish surnamed individual!

During the time leading up to the trial and for two weeks into the trial, Henry Leyvas and his co-defendants were not allowed to change their clothes by order of the trial judge, Charles Fricke. The district attorney reasoned, and Judge Fricke agreed, that the jury should see the defendants in the zoot suits, which were obviously only worn by "hoodlums". During the trial, 22 of the 24 co-defendants including Henry Leyvas were tried together. They were not allowed to sit with or talk with their lawyers. Whenever their names were mentioned by a witness or the District Attorney, the defendants were instructed by the judge to stand up, regardless of how damning the statements being made were. Judge Fricke also had E. Duran Ayres come and testify as an "expert" witness as to his belief of the Mexicans' penchant for killing and their "blood thirst". The trial went on for five months and on January 15, 1943, nine of the co-defendants (including Henry Leyvas) were found guilty of second degree murder, given prison terms of five years to life, and shipped off to the infamous San Quentin Prison. This entire incident is documented in the 1981 movie by Luis Valdez, Zoot Suit.

Against this backdrop of hate and vengeance toward the Mexican American community in Los Angeles, what is known as the "Zoot Suit Riots" (though they are now often referred to as the "sailor riots") occurred. On the night of June 3, 1943, eleven sailors on shore leave stated that they were attacked by a group of Mexican pachucos. In response to this, a group of over 200 uniformed sailors chartered 20 cabs and charged into the heart of the Mexican American community in East Los Angeles. Any zoot suiter was fair game. On this and the following nights, many a zoot suiter was beaten by this mob and stripped of their clothes, their zoot suits, on the spot. Nine sailors were arrested during these disturbances, not one was charged with any crime. On the following nights of June 4th and 5th, the uniformed servicemen (by this time the sailors had been joined by soldiers) again invaded East Los Angeles, marching abreast down the streets, breaking into bars and theaters, and assaulting anyone in their way. Not one was arrested by the Police or the Sheriff. In fact, the servicemen were portrayed in the local press as heroes stemming the tide of the "Mexican Crime Wave." During the nights of June 6th and 7th, these scenes were again repeated. Time Magazine later reported that, "The police practice was to accompany the caravans of soldiers and sailors in police cars, watch the beatings and jail the victims." According to Rudolpho Acuña in Occupied America, "Seventeen-year-old Enrico Herrera, after he was beaten and arrested, spent three hours at a police station, where he was found by his mother, still naked and bleeding. A 12-year-old boy's jaw was broken. Police arrested over 600 Chicano youths without cause and labeled the arrests 'preventive' action. Angelenos cheered on the servicemen and their civilian allies."3

Finally, at midnight on June 7th, because the navy believed it had on actual mutiny on hand, the military authorities did what the city of Los Angeles would not, they moved to stop the rioting of their personnel. Los Angeles was declared off limits for all military personnel. Though there were little consequences for the rioters (servicemen and local law enforcement authorities alike), there was some public outcry. On June 16th, 1943, Eleanor Roosevelt commented in her column that, "The question goes deeper than just suits. It is a racial protest. I have been worried for a long time about the Mexican racial situation. It is a problem with roots going a long way back, and we do not always face these problems as we should." Los Angeles' response was typified by the June 18th headlines of the Los Angeles Times, "Mrs. Roosevelt Blindly Stirs Race Discord," and she was accused of communist leanings in the accompanying editorial. Governor Earl Warren (later Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court during their landmark desegregation cases) convened a committee to investigate the riots and recommended punishment for all involved in the riots, servicemen and civilians. Other than the charges filed against the Mexican American victims, no punishment was ever meted out.


And it does not seem we have gone to far from the way people are ready to jump all over them again, people remember this stuff, and people are angry at racism past and present. Whites here have a long history of racism to mexicans, and quoting John Tanton all over the mainstream media and scapegoating workers is not how to help the problems.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: BadThad
Here's an idea for all you libs that want to help the "poor" illegals in the USA: take your next paycheck, cash it, then hand it over to a group of illegals on the street corner. Please do that because I'm sick of paying for them to live illegally in this country...oh...and have Uncle Sam deduct that amount from my taxes because I'd rather donate to a worthwhile charity that helps non-criminals.

Don't make this a "liberal/conservative" thing. I'm one of the most outspoken liberals on this forum, or so I've been told, and I'm completely against this travesty of "amnesty" or whatever you want to call it.

As a matter of fact, the illegal immigration mushroom cloud didn't really expand until your so-called "conservative" idol george w. bush came into office with his class warfare strategy.

 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
I have to agree there coming from the opposite side of BBond, its not in any way a liberal or conservative thing, I am partly for once on bush's side, A REPUBLICAN on this (although for about the opposite reason he is for it though)

This is a class issue and geographical (as in where you are from and how much exposure to immigrants you have) in a way.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
And it does not seem we have gone to far from the way people are ready to jump all over them again, people remember this stuff, and people are angry at racism past and present. Whites here have a long history of racism to mexicans, and quoting John Tanton all over the mainstream media and scapegoating workers is not how to help the problems.
I would believe you if it were being done irregardless of immigration status (ie, legal or illegal). Its not the case here no matter how you wanna stretch it.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
This has nothing to do with racism. This is all about protecting our borders and the rule of law. Period.

To cry racism when all America wants is to have its immigration policy enforced is doing nothing but hurting the so-called "cause" of ILLEGAL immigration. I really don't understand how anyone can call it a "cause" though. It's simply a matter of our government allowing 12 million ILLEGAL immigrants, SO FAR, to flaunt existing US immigration laws.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: her209
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
And it does not seem we have gone to far from the way people are ready to jump all over them again, people remember this stuff, and people are angry at racism past and present. Whites here have a long history of racism to mexicans, and quoting John Tanton all over the mainstream media and scapegoating workers is not how to help the problems.
I would believe you if it were being done irregardless of immigration status (ie, legal or illegal). Its not the case here no matter how you wanna stretch it.


People who are in the situation do not see it as a legal and illegal thing though, this is a middle class line fed by the upper classes who want slave wages and of course always want to play the middle class off the poorest classes to keep them distanced and focused downwardly and not at them as they screw them both. To the poorest it seems like an attack on them, their neighbors, a lot of them are minorities also who know american racism and hate toward poor and it DOES rally a broad base to be seen as a direct attack, the rally last night was not only undocumented workers, but minorites of all colors and a lot of poor white working class, it is all of our struggle as attacking one group does affect all of us in the long run, the middle class is out of touch as usual, but that is how the rich want it.

Rule #1 of America: When there is a problem ALWAYS blame the poor, (easiest target and almost impossible to defend themselves without the money) the class war is as old as america itself.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
142
106
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
This is where we are coming from:




Set in the environment of ethnic and racial paranoia that defined the early 1940s in Los Angeles, California, the "Zoot Suit Riots" were a defining moment for Zoot Suiters and the Mexican American community. The ethnic populations of California as a whole, and Los Angeles in particular, were under siege. In March and April of 1942, the entire Japanese and Japanese American population on the West Coast of the United States were deported to "relocation centers" (mild euphemisms for concentration camps) located in the interior of the U.S.. Without the Japanese Americans around to focus the locals' racial paranoia, Los Angeleans began to look toward the Zoot Suiters. A "Mexican Crime Wave" was announced by local newspapers (precursors to today's tabloids and pioneers in "yellow journalism"), and a special grand jury was appointed by the city of Los Angeles to investigate.

Around the same time, the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department also decided to investigate and appointed E. Duran Ayres to head their Foreign Relations Bureau. And though Mr. Ayres accurately identified much of the active discrimination that was occurring against the "Mexican element", he drew some startling conclusions which were presented to the grand jury:

"He stated that Mexican Americans are essentially Indians and therefore Orientals or Asians. Throughout history, he declared, the Orientals have shown less regard for human life than have the Europeans. Further, Mexican Americans had inherited their 'naturally violent' tendencies from the 'bloodthirsty Aztecs' of Mexico who were said to have practiced human sacrifice centuries ago. At one point in his report Ayres even compared the Anglo to a domesticated house cat and the Mexican to a 'wild cat,' suggesting that the Mexican would forever retain his wild and violent tendencies no matter how much education or training he might receive.

On the night of August 1, 1942, zoot suiter Henry Leyvas, 20, and some of his friends were involved in a fight with another group of pachucos at the Williams Ranch by a lagoon. Later the next morning, a man named José Díaz was found bleeding and unconscious on a road near the lagoon (later named the Sleepy Lagoon by a reporter). He later died. The autopsy revealed that Mr. Díaz was drunk at the time of death and that his death was the result of blunt head trauma. Though one medical examiner stated that his injuries were consistent with that of being hit by a car, Henry Leyvas and 24 members of the "38th Street gang" (as the group had been dubbed by the local tabloids) were arrested and charged with the murder of José Díaz. Led by the local tabloids, a public outcry for "justice" and vengeance against the zoot suiters caused the Los Angeles Police Department to conduct a roundup of over 600 people on the nights of August 10th and 11th. All were charged with such things as suspicion of assault, armed robbery, etc., and 175 people were held on these charges. Of the 600 plus people arrested during this roundup, every single one was a Spanish surnamed individual!

During the time leading up to the trial and for two weeks into the trial, Henry Leyvas and his co-defendants were not allowed to change their clothes by order of the trial judge, Charles Fricke. The district attorney reasoned, and Judge Fricke agreed, that the jury should see the defendants in the zoot suits, which were obviously only worn by "hoodlums". During the trial, 22 of the 24 co-defendants including Henry Leyvas were tried together. They were not allowed to sit with or talk with their lawyers. Whenever their names were mentioned by a witness or the District Attorney, the defendants were instructed by the judge to stand up, regardless of how damning the statements being made were. Judge Fricke also had E. Duran Ayres come and testify as an "expert" witness as to his belief of the Mexicans' penchant for killing and their "blood thirst". The trial went on for five months and on January 15, 1943, nine of the co-defendants (including Henry Leyvas) were found guilty of second degree murder, given prison terms of five years to life, and shipped off to the infamous San Quentin Prison. This entire incident is documented in the 1981 movie by Luis Valdez, Zoot Suit.

Against this backdrop of hate and vengeance toward the Mexican American community in Los Angeles, what is known as the "Zoot Suit Riots" (though they are now often referred to as the "sailor riots") occurred. On the night of June 3, 1943, eleven sailors on shore leave stated that they were attacked by a group of Mexican pachucos. In response to this, a group of over 200 uniformed sailors chartered 20 cabs and charged into the heart of the Mexican American community in East Los Angeles. Any zoot suiter was fair game. On this and the following nights, many a zoot suiter was beaten by this mob and stripped of their clothes, their zoot suits, on the spot. Nine sailors were arrested during these disturbances, not one was charged with any crime. On the following nights of June 4th and 5th, the uniformed servicemen (by this time the sailors had been joined by soldiers) again invaded East Los Angeles, marching abreast down the streets, breaking into bars and theaters, and assaulting anyone in their way. Not one was arrested by the Police or the Sheriff. In fact, the servicemen were portrayed in the local press as heroes stemming the tide of the "Mexican Crime Wave." During the nights of June 6th and 7th, these scenes were again repeated. Time Magazine later reported that, "The police practice was to accompany the caravans of soldiers and sailors in police cars, watch the beatings and jail the victims." According to Rudolpho Acuña in Occupied America, "Seventeen-year-old Enrico Herrera, after he was beaten and arrested, spent three hours at a police station, where he was found by his mother, still naked and bleeding. A 12-year-old boy's jaw was broken. Police arrested over 600 Chicano youths without cause and labeled the arrests 'preventive' action. Angelenos cheered on the servicemen and their civilian allies."3

Finally, at midnight on June 7th, because the navy believed it had on actual mutiny on hand, the military authorities did what the city of Los Angeles would not, they moved to stop the rioting of their personnel. Los Angeles was declared off limits for all military personnel. Though there were little consequences for the rioters (servicemen and local law enforcement authorities alike), there was some public outcry. On June 16th, 1943, Eleanor Roosevelt commented in her column that, "The question goes deeper than just suits. It is a racial protest. I have been worried for a long time about the Mexican racial situation. It is a problem with roots going a long way back, and we do not always face these problems as we should." Los Angeles' response was typified by the June 18th headlines of the Los Angeles Times, "Mrs. Roosevelt Blindly Stirs Race Discord," and she was accused of communist leanings in the accompanying editorial. Governor Earl Warren (later Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court during their landmark desegregation cases) convened a committee to investigate the riots and recommended punishment for all involved in the riots, servicemen and civilians. Other than the charges filed against the Mexican American victims, no punishment was ever meted out.


And it does not seem we have gone to far from the way people are ready to jump all over them again, people remember this stuff, and people are angry at racism past and present. Whites here have a long history of racism to mexicans, and quoting John Tanton all over the mainstream media and scapegoating workers is not how to help the problems.
You're quoting an incident that happened in the 40's. Are you really that dense? You sound like some of these "I want reparations for slavery" people. Get the hell out, this is 2006 not 1942. Your hatred of "East coast and Midwest" whites is just as absurd as the guy above who compares Mexicans to bloodthirsty Aztecs. Yes, that's how silly you look by pulling the race card in this thread.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
I do not hate any fellow american, I am very dissapointed that they once again decided to buy the blatent racism baiting lines from the media and blame the poorest of america again instead of who is actually trying to screw all of us and whos fault this all is.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Ahh, so its ok to immigrate if you are european or came here in the past 90 years or so unless your a mexican, ok. This whole view is hypocritical I hope you see.
Calling someone illegal is not used often in mainstream press simply becasue it is intellectually and historiclly ignorant.
Hypocritical...I beg to differ.

When my grandparents and great-grandparents immigrated to this country from Italy, they did so legally through an established process...one that made them American citizens, and also vested them into what it means to be American...my family took a great deal of pride in becoming American, to the extent that it was important for subsequent generations to gain an education, learn the english language, and enjoy the freedoms that motivated their immigration to American in the first place. While my family managed to maintain many of the cultural elements of their nation of origin, they also quite willingly dived into the melting pot.

Many of those subsequent generations felt so proud to be American that they volunteered to serve in WW2 and Vietnam respectively. Others started businesses, broke into the realm of white collar corporate America, or otherwise managed to escape inner city poverty to achieve social and economic mobility.

When Americans today complain about the latest wave of immigrants from South and Central America, they are not being racist...they are simply observing the dynamic that these immigrants, in not following a legalized and standardized process, are not becoming vested in what it means to be American. They have no compelling reason or desire to learn the English language. Seemingly have no allegiance to this nation. Do not even seemingly take pride in the neighborhoods in which they reside. If ever you visit SoCal, I invite you to take a drive through the city of Santa Ana, and see first hand why many Americans want immigration reform.

Immigrants have always been exploited in this nation, but why is it that previous waves and cultures managed to integrate into American society, yet the Hispanic wave has not. But we aren't allowed to talk about these issues, because criticizing the negative behavioral patterns of any minority population is automatically dismissed as racist :roll: whatever.

Italians, Greeks, Indians, Pakistani, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, etc. These cultures hardly fit the white America stereotype, yet they have managed to appreciate and enjoy everything that is great about this country without becoming a burden to our society.

This is not to say that these problems are entirely the fault of these illegal immigrants. In most cases, they are victims of a broken system in desperate need of reform. I have no problem with people immigrating to America in search of a better life. But like previous waves of immigrants, there needs to be a procedure in place.
 

HardWarrior

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,400
23
81
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: HardWarrior
With any luck you'll harden even more heads against the idea of America as an unrestricted 3rd world dumping ground.

If you dont know that already then wake up, On the whole we are mostly the vermin that noone wanted from europe anyhow.

Funny how once the tables are turned some think we are superior somehow becasue of where we were born this generation :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Don't generalize. My ancestors road over on slave ships, but that was a while ago and has no bearing on this discussion. Things change, and sometimes radically for the good of the whole. We can't continue to adsorb cheap labor at thr rate we've been going. And while you may feel comfortable looking at yourself as vermin, please don't include me.

Stop tickling yourself and SHOW me where I said I was superior because I was born in the US. Dude, you're all over the place, like a cheap suit.



 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Ahh, so its ok to immigrate if you are european or came here in the past 90 years or so unless your a mexican, ok. This whole view is hypocritical I hope you see.
Calling someone illegal is not used often in mainstream press simply becasue it is intellectually and historiclly ignorant.
Hypocritical...I beg to differ.

When my grandparents and great-grandparents immigrated to this country from Italy, they did so legally through an established process...one that made them American citizens, and also vested them into what it means to be American...my family took a great deal of pride in becoming American, to the extent that it was important for subsequent generations to gain an education, learn the english language, and enjoy the freedoms that motivated their immigration to American in the first place. While my family managed to maintain many of the cultural elements of their nation of origin, they also quite willingly dived into the melting pot.

Many of those subsequent generations felt so proud to be American that they volunteered to serve in WW2 and Vietnam respectively. Others started businesses, broke into the realm of white collar corporate America, or otherwise managed to escape inner city poverty to achieve social and economic mobility.

When Americans today complain about the latest wave of immigrants from South and Central America, they are not being racist...they are simply observing the dynamic that these immigrants, in not following a legalized and standardized process, are not becoming vested in what it means to be American. They have no compelling reason or desire to learn the English language. Seemingly have no allegiance to this nation. Do not even seemingly take pride in the neighborhoods in which they reside. If ever you visit SoCal, I invite you to take a drive through the city of Santa Ana, and see first hand why many Americans want immigration reform.

Immigrants have always been exploited in this nation, but why is it that previous waves and cultures managed to integrate into American society, yet the Hispanic wave has not. But we aren't allowed to talk about these issues, because criticizing the negative behavioral patterns of any minority population is automatically dismissed as racist :roll: whatever.

Italians, Greeks, Indians, Pakistani, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, etc. These cultures hardly fit the white America stereotype, yet they have managed to appreciate and enjoy everything that is great about this country without becoming a burden to our society.

This is not to say that these problems are entirely the fault of these illegal immigrants. In most cases, they are victims of a broken system in desperate need of reform. I have no problem with people immigrating to America in search of a better life. But like previous waves of immigrants, there needs to be a procedure in place.



I have no problem with that, it is the system that is broken and people are pretty gulliable, I dont think people are downright racist but they are being manipulated into acting so.

And there is a simple reason central and south americans who do not have the oppurtunity your Italian ancestors did to join our melting pot, they are a sub class on the lam you could say, they cannot mix freely as they are needed by us, but not accepted as citizens, they must stick together, and sticking together does not promote fitting in as other immigrants have done.

As far as screening people I have said time and time again in here I am 100% for.
Same deal as the europeans had to go through to get in. BUT the powers that be decided to open up cheap labor to these people taking advantage, people will do what they must, this is not about hating on por "illegals" the anger should be directed toward the government and unrealistic caps on immigration.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: HardWarrior
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: HardWarrior
With any luck you'll harden even more heads against the idea of America as an unrestricted 3rd world dumping ground.

If you dont know that already then wake up, On the whole we are mostly the vermin that noone wanted from europe anyhow.

Funny how once the tables are turned some think we are superior somehow becasue of where we were born this generation :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Don't generalize. My ancestors road over on slave ships, but that was a while ago and has no bearing on this discussion. Things change, and sometimes radically for the good of the whole. We can't continue to adsorb cheap labor at thr rate we've been going. And while you may feel comfortable looking at yourself as vermin, please don't include me.

Stop tickling yourself and SHOW me where I said I was superior because I was born in the US. Dude, you're all over the place, like a cheap suit.

Well, for one your idea of our country being a "dumping ground" would involve refuse or garbage being placed here, if that is not screaming superiority trip I dont know what does.
 

daniel49

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
4,814
0
71
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
I have to agree there coming from the opposite side of BBond, its not in any way a liberal or conservative thing, I am partly for once on bush's side, A REPUBLICAN on this (although for about the opposite reason he is for it though)

This is a class issue and geographical (as in where you are from and how much exposure to immigrants you have) in a way.



Quoted for historic precedence.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: daniel49
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
I have to agree there coming from the opposite side of BBond, its not in any way a liberal or conservative thing, I am partly for once on bush's side, A REPUBLICAN on this (although for about the opposite reason he is for it though)

This is a class issue and geographical (as in where you are from and how much exposure to immigrants you have) in a way.



Quoted for historic precedence.


Yeah, don't forget to include the part that I am on his side for the opposite reason he is for it though.

I still would not call that agreeing, just becasue I ride the same train to work as someone doesent mean I am your friend.
 

daniel49

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
4,814
0
71
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: daniel49
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
I have to agree there coming from the opposite side of BBond, its not in any way a liberal or conservative thing, I am partly for once on bush's side, A REPUBLICAN on this (although for about the opposite reason he is for it though)

This is a class issue and geographical (as in where you are from and how much exposure to immigrants you have) in a way.



Quoted for historic precedence.


Yeah, don't forget to include the part that I am on his side for the opposite reason he is for it though.

I still would not call that agreeing, just becasue I ride the same train to work as someone doesent mean I am your friend.


What if I rode the same train and I was an illegal immigrant?
 

brandonbull

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
6,338
1,215
126
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Gand1
ANd does no one here want to approach the health care issues? If half this countries own people are having problems affording health care and are taxing hospital emergency rooms, what will 12 mill more people do to the hospitals then? You know none of the illegals have health care.

The illegals have no health care yet they clog emergency rooms aroung here when they become ill or injured. And emergency room care is the most expensive medical care there is.

As 1EZduzit mentioned above, it's not immigration that people are against. It's ILLEGAL immigration that the vast majority of Americans are against.

What part of I-L-L-E-G-A-L don't you people understand?



Simple there is no I-L-L-E-G-A-L humans saying so is a hypocritical stance that is being thrown around to play off peoples jealousy using old racist laws as an excuse.

Can't wait for pedophiles to start protesting the laws against them. Since there are no I-L-L-E-G-A-L humans

 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
And there is a simple reason central and south americans who do not have the oppurtunity your Italian ancestors did to join our melting pot, they are a sub class on the lam you could say, they cannot mix freely as they are needed by us, but not accepted as citizens, they must stick together, and sticking together does not promote fitting in as other immigrants have done.
Italians congregated in many inner city neighborhoods...most major American cities, particularly on the east coast, have a Little Italy neighborhood for a reason. Italians were persecuted and exploited by the northern Europeans who were already here...which is why the mafia gained such a foothold in many Italian neighborhoods, as these immigrants required protection from a society that was far more racist back then.

Italians overcame these obstacles BY sticking together...but that did not preclude them from trying to fit in, to the extent that after 2 to 3 generations ,our culture is identified largely by our last names and nothing more...but to dismiss that journey as easy demonstrates a gross misunderstanding of the barriers encountered by previous immigration waves, even those from parts of "white" Europe.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: daniel49
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: daniel49
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
I have to agree there coming from the opposite side of BBond, its not in any way a liberal or conservative thing, I am partly for once on bush's side, A REPUBLICAN on this (although for about the opposite reason he is for it though)

This is a class issue and geographical (as in where you are from and how much exposure to immigrants you have) in a way.



Quoted for historic precedence.


Yeah, don't forget to include the part that I am on his side for the opposite reason he is for it though.

I still would not call that agreeing, just becasue I ride the same train to work as someone doesent mean I am your friend.


What if I rode the same train and I was an illegal immigrant?


All people are worth a chance until you do me wrong, even little prats like you.
 

LumbergTech

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2005
3,622
1
0
Originally posted by: brandonbull
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Gand1
ANd does no one here want to approach the health care issues? If half this countries own people are having problems affording health care and are taxing hospital emergency rooms, what will 12 mill more people do to the hospitals then? You know none of the illegals have health care.

The illegals have no health care yet they clog emergency rooms aroung here when they become ill or injured. And emergency room care is the most expensive medical care there is.

As 1EZduzit mentioned above, it's not immigration that people are against. It's ILLEGAL immigration that the vast majority of Americans are against.

What part of I-L-L-E-G-A-L don't you people understand?



Simple there is no I-L-L-E-G-A-L humans saying so is a hypocritical stance that is being thrown around to play off peoples jealousy using old racist laws as an excuse.

Can't wait for pedophiles to start protesting the laws against them. Since there are no I-L-L-E-G-A-L humans

imagine that..another person bringing up pedophiles in a discussion about immigration....great contribution
 

EatSpam

Diamond Member
May 1, 2005
6,423
0
0
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: BadThad
Here's an idea for all you libs that want to help the "poor" illegals in the USA: take your next paycheck, cash it, then hand it over to a group of illegals on the street corner. Please do that because I'm sick of paying for them to live illegally in this country...oh...and have Uncle Sam deduct that amount from my taxes because I'd rather donate to a worthwhile charity that helps non-criminals.

Don't make this a "liberal/conservative" thing. I'm one of the most outspoken liberals on this forum, or so I've been told, and I'm completely against this travesty of "amnesty" or whatever you want to call it.

Yeah, same here.
 

SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
142
106
Steeple rules, he still perseveres in his lunacy even after a whole forum shows him he's wrong with evidence. Convenient to ignore the 10 billion dollar cost to us, isn't it Steeple? Yet not a shred of mathematical evidence that illegal immigration helps our country. Just lunatic rants about racism and zoot suit riots, how immigrants built this country so we owe them, and how forging social security cards is alright and everyone should do it.

Preach on, brother.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
And there is a simple reason central and south americans who do not have the oppurtunity your Italian ancestors did to join our melting pot, they are a sub class on the lam you could say, they cannot mix freely as they are needed by us, but not accepted as citizens, they must stick together, and sticking together does not promote fitting in as other immigrants have done.
Italians congregated in many inner city neighborhoods...most major American cities, particularly on the east coast, have a Little Italy neighborhood for a reason. Italians were persecuted and exploited by the northern Europeans who were already here...which is why the mafia gained such a foothold in many Italian neighborhoods, as these immigrants required protection from a society that was far more racist back then.

Italians overcame these obstacles BY sticking together...but that did not preclude them from trying to fit in, to the extent that after 2 to 3 generations ,our culture is identified largely by our last names and nothing more...but to dismiss that journey as easy demonstrates a gross misunderstanding of the barriers encountered by previous immigration waves, even those from parts of "white" Europe.



I would disagree, Italians had it rough, as did Irish (maybe Italians a bit worse as they are darker skinned) but they came later and have over time pretty much lost all that seperated them, Italians do not stick together as a rule anymore and rarely speak Italia outside of family gatherings if at all, some cultures assimilate faster, a lot of it is appearances though, Irish dont look different then english protestant ruling class of america after they lost accent, but even after so many years they do still respect their heritige even though they are mostly mutts now
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
Steeple rules, he still perseveres in his lunacy even after a whole forum shows him he's wrong with evidence. Convenient to ignore the 10 billion dollar cost to us, isn't it Steeple? Yet not a shred of mathematical evidence that illegal immigration helps our country. Just lunatic rants about racism and zoot suit riots, how immigrants built this country so we owe them, and how forging social security cards is alright and everyone should do it.

Preach on, brother.


You are already dismissed along with your john tanton 10bil crap info you tried to pawn off in this thread, get with it or stop baiting me

I already told you, history proves you wrong, you have nothing except lame figures from a known anti-latino hate group.

BTW this is about 4 people debating me, not the whole forum, Quite a few regular forum members are behind me but generally who would want to debate half these whackos and have to tell them it is racism, I take a lot of unpopular stands in here.
 

brandonbull

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
6,338
1,215
126
Originally posted by: Steeplerot


It is far too hard to find under the table jobs, most pay taxes like you do in reality.
You obviously do not know many immigrants and how they work, a big problem as all you people talking this trash have no clue about the subject except rumors from tv.

Except they do not file returns like you have the luxury of doing.

By you saying that, I have the feeeling you have never looked for a job.

 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: brandonbull
Originally posted by: Steeplerot


It is far too hard to find under the table jobs, most pay taxes like you do in reality.
You obviously do not know many immigrants and how they work, a big problem as all you people talking this trash have no clue about the subject except rumors from tv.

Except they do not file returns like you have the luxury of doing.

By you saying that, I have the feeeling you have never looked for a job.


Not long term work to feed a family, and it is much harder nowdays then it used to be.
 
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