Question I may be building a new system soon, but not "cutting edge"

[BonzaiDuck]

OK. I've caught up on Intel's current troubles from view of its stock values, suspension of dividends, lay-offs, and a severe cut in capital expenditures.

Then, there is the published news about the gen13 and gen 14 processors, their plan for "micro-code" fixes, and the problems gamers and others were having with the new CPUs.

Local word-of-mouth "intel" suggests that some sort of "corrosion" resulting from chip fabrication is causing problems; the published news suggests that the processors overvolt themselves. Back to the "word-of-mouth", I've been told to stay away from more recent AMD chips. Reminds me of the old rock song: "Nowhere to run to, Ba-a-a-aby! Nowhere to hi-i-ide!"

I am currently rocking three SKYLAKE or KABY LAKE "K" systems which are so far flawless. One of them is a "media-PC" feeding my Sony Bravia through one of the HDMI ports, and it also serves as a "backup server" for all the other PCs and laptops in the house. I have no problems at the moment. One SKY and the KABY system are each fitted with 64GB of DDR4-3200 RAM, which is put to good use. I won't explore the details, but my threads or posts about my use of RAM go back to around 2014.

I also have an LG "Gram" laptop which uses a Tiger Lake processor, fitted with 32GB of RAM. Obviously, it is the only Windows 11 system I have. To use Win 11 on the other three desktops would require using those hacks people touted a few years back, and I'm just not going to do it.

To continue my story here, I'd probably posted two years past to suggest an interest in building an Alder Lake system. And I think even then, people were telling me to use that processor and chipset versus the 13 gen CPU. But I must emphasize: I have no immediate NEED for a newer system, but in three years I'll be 80, I want to move on to Win 11 and beyond. I think it's TIME!

LET ME EMPHASIZE: THERE IS NO GREAT HURRY WITH THIS PROJECT. RIGHT NOW, I'M RESEARCHING PARTS BEFORE I EVEN BUY THEM. But I'd like to go "operational" by February or March 2025 -- a cautious schedule both to avoid snags and to accommodate having a few.

THERE IS NO NEED TO APPLY SOME SORT OF FRUGALITY RULE_OF_THUMB for a 77-year-old who does less and less gaming and more serious computing as time passes. Money is not a serious object as long as it isn't spendthrift and totally unnecessary. I don't want a mid-range motherboard or processor, or even lower-end parts. I incline toward the high-end, even if I don't NEED them.

Right now, I'm considering an i9-12900K Alder Lake processor which I see available for $317. I could scale back this ambition to an i7 model.

For the motherboard, I see reviews and indications of the ASUS ROG Strix Z690-E, but I'm not ruling out an ASUS TUF board. I saw an ROG Strix Z690 review from 2022 suggesting the board was "pricey" at around $400, but I find it now for $230.

I am seeking recommendations and opinions here. The last PC I built was the Kaby Lake with an ASUS Z170 workstation board. Right away, you tell me "that's all old parts!", but except for the processor itself, these were spare parts I acquired for chump-change when my original SKYLAKE blew its USB controller and would no longer boot. And I built the Kaby rig in spring, 2022. So some aspects of my building experience are not so "rusty" -- only the technology is old.

 

[In2Photos]

Who's telling you to stay away from AMD?

 

[Tech Junky]

I left Intel in the dust for AMD last year and built one with a 7900X CPU. 12/24 is better than the hybrid Intel setup.

The xx900 series CPUs don't warrant the extra costs with Intel. The ADL series hasn't had many complaints though.

I wouldn't put $550 into Intel though at this point.

 

[lakedude]

I incline toward the high-end, even if I don't NEED them.

Intel's high end is where all the trouble has been. Shows up there first because they are pushing those chips harder, maybe too hard, oxidation, ring bus, micro code, who knows.

AMD has had some trouble with their high end 3d chips but I think they have that sorted out now.

AMD is just days away from launching their 9000 series, most everybody should wait till then.

Intel 12th gen is fine, I guess, but it does not sit right with me to go that far back.

"They" have got some really interesting 18A chips with backside power coming out in a few years. That sounds super cool! Gotta get one of those once they get the bugs out.

I want to move on to Win 11

People seem to prefer Win 10 around here. I managed to install W11 without being forced into an account and all that onedrive crap so if you do go W11 you might look into that.

Back before I was married I had more disposable income and stayed on the bleeding edge. Spent 10s of thousands at NewEgg, it was very frustrating because that stuff never worked correctly out of the box and by the time they put out patches and driver updates the next fancy new thing came out. Now I stay off the edge and in the middle and I couldn't be happier.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I've become a sort of "CPU bigot" over the years, primarily because I only ever used one AMD processor, which was the one they produced to replace an 8088 intel if I'm not mistaken. Every system I've ever built used intel CPUs, and that includes a P4 CPU from around the millennium which was deemed a buggy disaster.

As an old fart, I think I'm still sharp enough to build a really good overall PC, regardless of the CPU I choose. But the troubles I'd heard and read about the gen 13 and gen 14 have led me to favor Alder Lake or earlier, and earlier is perhaps too early.

But Tech Junky -- you mention a $500 price-tag. I've noticed that the i9-12900K offerings on Amazon have dwindled, but I did find this: i9-12900K boxed processor

And that's $314. I suspect that these are in high demand right now, given the news about the 13th and 14th gen CPUs. Even so, I've always been able to find a particular CPU if I looked hard enough. And also -- even so -- if there were dwindling supply, why would they offer this discount?

One thing I'll likely do with this build, however, is avoid buying a dGPU card -- traditionally for me an nVidia.

Now -- I'm well aware that this is a motherboard forum, that there is a "computer building" forum, and a "Memory/storage" forum etc., and we can, if we wish, move the thread to "storage and RAM". I came across these Trident Z5 kits in the last hour or so, checking the G.SKILL configurator. But the configurator seldom contains a match for the capacity you want in the RAM. I used to be able to extrapolate from the configurator to the reseller offering, but G.SKILL's identifiers have become far too complex. Yet this model of RAM seems explicitly made for the Z690 chipset.

Tell ya somethin' else! I'm going to socket two of these 64GB kits in the STRIX board -- if the STRIX board is a good choice, and as I said, I was looking for "second opinions" here.

My source of gossip for the AMD CPUs is a retired electronics expert from my old neighborhood in Virginia. I just talked to him today. He didn't give me specific reasons, though. We were in a hurry: his wife was fixing him dinner.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Intel's high end is where all the trouble has been. Shows up there first because they are pushing those chips harder, maybe too hard, oxidation, ring bus, micro code, who knows.

AMD has had some trouble with their high end 3d chips but I think they have that sorted out now.

AMD is just days away from launching their 9000 series, most everybody should wait till then.

Intel 12th gen is fine, I guess, but it does not sit right with me to go that far back.

"They" have got some really interesting 18A chips with backside power coming out in a few years. That sounds super cool! Gotta get one of those once they get the bugs out.



People seem to prefer Win 10 around here. I managed to install W11 without being forced into an account and all that onedrive crap so if you do go W11 you might look into that.

Back before I was married I had more disposable income and stayed on the bleeding edge. Spent 10s of thousands at NewEgg, it was very frustrating because that stuff never worked correctly out of the box and by the time they put out patches and driver updates the next fancy new thing came out. Now I stay off the edge and in the middle and I couldn't be happier.

Should've tacked this on to my post preceding. Your opinions about the processors seem consistent with what I'd heard from others. I'm not worried about a two-year-old Alder Lake processor, though. Well -- maybe it's 3 years old -- I'll check the intel archive to see when it was released.

But you are correct also about people remaining comfortable with Win 10. I wouldn't bother building a new system configurable to Win 11, but for the fact that my old software gets older, and I might feel uncomfortable using an old OS. Even so, Win 10 still has support, and I think support will continue.

Really, to be honest, these are similar decisions or inclinations to my wish for a newer vehicle to replace my 30-year-old SUV on the "Garage" forum. I was surprised today to find out that carbon pollution for passenger cars and buses is only 7% of the total, while the entire "Transport Sector" is responsible for 28%. So of course I asserted no reason to buy that RAV4 Hybrid Prime I had my eye on -- anytime soon.

It's the same for operating systems and hardware. Remember, I'm just trying to identify hardware for a build at this moment. I may hold off until December. I can't say for sure. Freakin' world is changing too fast, though!

AND -- ANOTHER UPDATE: I just did a search beyond Amazon. That I9-12900K boxed processor is widely available -- I think EBay and Microcenter have it for less than $300. Best Buy? What's wrong with those folks? They want $600 !!

 

[Tech Junky]

Well, you really need to give AMD a second look. It's not the 90's anymore when it comes to differences between the two platforms.

With the 7000 series aging well it's still a great CPU and much more efficient than Intel's offerings. The thing that got me to finally switch back after decades of Intel was they finally matched the underling tech when you put them side by side in terms of MOBOs. The only thing that bugs me a bit is the chipset bandwidth being x4 on the AMD side. It makes you plan things out a bit differently than Intel and even the 9000/800 series coming soon doesn't resolve this one little thing.

As to the GPU need........... Neither needs one but, you can fix that with a cheap A380 for $100 that is a beast when it comes to media. IT's well worth the addition in either case when it comes to being more efficient in terms of duration/power use. IIRC the baseline is ~35W under load but, the thing hits 1000+ FPS when converting media using QSV.

OS / Windows.... ProxMox and virtualizing the OS might be a better option rather than worrying about it. Then you can run the HW independent of the OS. If you want to run 5-10 different OS you can for different things. I just put Linux on the setup and forget about MSFT junk and issues. I run it though on my laptop because it's convenient for a couple of apps but I store everything else on the Linux box. Because it's not an IF but a WHEN windows will fail. The only time Linux fails is when you break it yourself. If you leave it alone it would run forever.

Intel wouldn't even be interesting though until ARL which is coming soon and a huge transition in terms of the packaging of the CPU. They've been using 10nm processes for a decade or so at this point and shifting to ARL will drop down to 3/4nm and going from monolithic to chiplet.

RAM and everything else besides the CPU/MOBO just falls into place once you pick your option.

 

[igor_kavinski]

My source of gossip for the AMD CPUs is a retired electronics expert from my old neighborhood in Virginia. I just talked to him today. He didn't give me specific reasons, though. We were in a hurry: his wife was fixing him dinner.

You are going to base your decision to buy a power hungry 12900K on "gossip" from an electronics "expert" who couldn't give you any specific reasons on why current AMD CPUs are bad. Hmm...OK

 

[igor_kavinski]

Anyway, if you really want to go with 12900K, better shop for an AIO cooler too. 420mm one if you don't want it to be thermally limited. And you may also need to get a LGA1700 contact frame. You can read about it here: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/thermalright-lga1700-bcf-contact-frame

Amazon.com

 

[In2Photos]

Well if you look around the forum you'll find one really large thread about the issues with Intel 13/14 Gen and can read all about the horrible way that Intel has responded to the problems. I just can't see why anyone would choose to stick with them at this time. There are no such threads for the current AMD offerings. Buying a 3 generation old CPU on a dead platform seems like a terrible decision to me. The AMD 7900X or 7950X, not to mention the new 9900X and 9950X due out soon, run circles around the 12900K in productivity related benchmarks and do so with much less power. In gaming they are fairly equal in performance, but the AMD CPU uses less power to get there. Additionally I wouldn't buy an expensive ASUS motherboard either. They have also had issues recently and are doing some really shady things to people in regards to RMAs.

If I were building a new PC to last the next 8-10 years I would go AMD with an AsRock, Gigabyte or MSI motherboard. I also wouldn't use 4 sticks of RAM if I could get enough memory in 2 sticks. Do you need 128GB of RAM in a personal PC? I mean I guess if you want to spend the money you can, but there are few workloads that really need this much RAM. Even 64GB today is a lot outside of a few use cases. I run 32GB on both my personal and work PCs. At work I have several things open at the same time, email, CAD, Office, Chrome, etc. I never reach anywhere near 32GB.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Sample Intel config with 12900KS: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/4dKpXk

Sample AMD config with 7900X: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/LvPXKX (wait until 15th and you can replace the 7900X with 9900X)

 

[Steltek]

Feb/March 2025? Don't get in a hurry then.
You can easily afford to wait to see how this Intel 13th/14th gen chip fiasco works out.

Arrow Lake is "expected" to launch in the late September/October time frame, assuming there are no problems with it. I can promise you, the reviewers are gonna be crawling all over it with a fine tooth comb after Raptor Lake.

One major disadvantage of Intel is that they change CPU sockets often (about every 2-3 chip generations), while AMD tends to keep sockets as long as possible enabling CPU upgrades with just a BIOS update. The AM4 socket was introduced in 2016 and is still viable (though I doubt it will get any more CPUs beyond the ones just released), while the AM5 socket which was introduced with Ryzen 7000 in 2022 will support Ryzen 9000, the future Ryzen 10000 series, and who knows what else.

The stable AMD socket situation tends to allow you for longevity bang for the buck on your computer investment through CPU upgrades.

As far as quality is concerned, AMD doesn't own a chip fab and thus uses TSMC to manufacture their chips. TSMC is the best fab in the world now, bar none.

 

[lakedude]

I won't explore the details, but my threads or posts about my use of RAM go back to around 2014.

Your post is very long and full of details except you have specifically avoided telling us what the new rig is going to be used for which limits the amount of help we can provide.

You are interested in only one brand which would ordinarily simplify your choices but right now that brand is in the middle of a crisis. If you cannot be more open minded the best thing you can do is wait until your brand gets their house in order.

I have a feeling that you would be better served with an i3 or an i5, especially with the high end chips having problems...

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I'm glad I posted this thread, because the feedback has been thought-provoking.

Already, I've re-examined the cooling requirements for the top-end i9 processor. I could easily scale back my choice to an i7-12700 or i7-12600. And as someone said, I might not even "NEED" that.

Also, I had built the Skylake (sky and kaby) with the extra RAM so I could use PrimoCache. On the new platforms, I don't think there'd be a need for that at all, so I could easily reconsider this dimension of the build. Now we're looking at storage with 7,000 mb/s sequential throughput. I might still want to use some spinners, but their speed is not an essential worry and caching them not so much of an improvement.

I also agree that I can afford to wait. These old quad-core CPUs based on the Skylake design are plenty fast for my current needs -- they just don't make Win 11 easily available. Even so, everyone is still leaning toward Win 10, when the Win 12 upgrade will be available September 2025.

As for cooling, I'd been inclined toward top-end air-coolers. The latest version of NH-D15 seems to be adequate, but I might still want to scale back my processor choice as I mentioned. I still might be better moving toward AIO water-cooling alternatives.

There's really no guarantee that Intel will emerge from this as we'd wish. So I should probably make myself look at AMD prospects.

I know a lot of people who've migrated to laptops exclusively, or even tablets supported by a keyboard for them. But I'm not "a lot of people", either. And I've got a win 11 laptop with 32GB RAM.

 

[manly]

Only glanced through the thread, but I don't think OP even mentioned what his use cases are and why he's motivated to build a high-end desktop PC in spring 2025?
I see @lakedude asked the question this morning, but OP ignored it.

I don't have a problem with brand loyalty; it kinda is what it is although we try to be more "objective" when it comes to tech. Having said that, how is Intel 8088 vs AMD even relevant? Obviously OP mis-remembers, because in the 1980s AMD didn't design any CPUs and was just a second source manufacturer.

From a deals standpoint, the two times a year that seem "optimal" for buying components is Prime Day (last month) and Black Friday. Outside of that, being close to a Micro Center B&M gives you access to some discounted bundles (in the past, Newegg occasionally had similar bundles as well).

Personally I wouldn't even consider ADL at this point, but maybe OP could if it's part of a well-priced bundle. Paying $314 just for a boxed i9-12900K seems like a lousy idea.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Only glanced through the thread, but I don't think OP even mentioned what his use cases are and why he's motivated to build a high-end desktop PC in spring 2025?
I see @lakedude asked the question this morning, but OP ignored it.

I don't have a problem with brand loyalty; it kinda is what it is although we try to be more "objective" when it comes to tech. Having said that, how is Intel 8088 vs AMD even relevant? Obviously OP mis-remembers, because in the 1980s AMD didn't design any CPUs and was just a second source manufacturer.

From a deals standpoint, the two times a year that seem "optimal" for buying components is Prime Day (last month) and Black Friday. Outside of that, being close to a Micro Center B&M gives you access to some discounted bundles (in the past, Newegg occasionally had similar bundles as well).

Personally I wouldn't even consider ADL at this point, but maybe OP could if it's part of a well-priced bundle. Paying $314 just for a boxed i9-12900K seems like a lousy idea.

Let's face it. My long-time DIY building experience was as much about overclocking and performance -- having fun with it -- as it was about wants over need. My usage is now pretty limited to business applications, and graphics, rendering etc. is not a major production requirement.

SO LET ME DROP THIS BOMB. As I say in the linked thread started last year and forgotten, I'd considered OEM SFF options -- Dell Optiplex models. Drop on over to Pre-Built Desktops, where I added some questions a few minutes ago. Even now, in this thread, I'll say that I would need to do some "hands-on" fiddling with any OEM desktop. That's why I hate my LG Gram laptop: it's not easy to pop open for modification and upgrade.

 

[In2Photos]

Let's face it. My long-time DIY building experience was as much about overclocking and performance -- having fun with it -- as it was about wants over need. My usage is now pretty limited to business applications, and graphics, rendering etc. is not a major production requirement.

SO LET ME DROP THIS BOMB. As I say in the linked thread started last year and forgotten, I'd considered OEM SFF options -- Dell Optiplex models. Drop on over to Pre-Built Desktops, where I added some questions a few minutes ago. Even now, in this thread, I'll say that I would need to do some "hands-on" fiddling with any OEM desktop. That's why I hate my LG Gram laptop: it's not easy to pop open for modification and upgrade.

If you want to fiddle do not buy an OEM SFF. And don't plan on do anything rigorous with one of those either. The lack of cooling will throttle those PCs. Not to mention the fact that Dell only uses Intel chips in those. So you're right back to square one.

 

[In2Photos]

If you want a SFF you can still build one yourself. They may not be as small as those Optiplex models, but they'll be a hell of a lot better.

Check out ITX builds on PC Part Picker or Youtube.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

If you want a SFF you can still build one yourself. They may not be as small as those Optiplex models, but they'll be a hell of a lot better.

Check out ITX builds on PC Part Picker or Youtube.

Thanks for the advice. I could just wait until gen 15, or get an i5 or i7 of the processors after gen 12.

With what I currently have, I'm not constrained in anything. I just can't upgrade to Win 11, or rather the upgrades might be problematic. Anyway, I just lost about half the price of an OEM PC on the stock market, and I'm not going to spend anything until after the FED drops the interest rate.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Y'all might want to look at this Tom's Hardware article.

Buying an OEM system with an i5 or i7 gen 13 or 14 might not be such a good idea either, or so the article suggests.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Y'all might want to look at this Tom's Hardware article.

Buying an OEM system with an i5 or i7 gen 13 or 14 might not be such a good idea either, or so the article suggests.

It's a hot topic around here for months now. Intel dirtbagged it and only recently admitted to the 65W SKUs.

My advice is have MicroCenter build your desktop when you are ready to buy. That way you can pick out the parts and get quality. They seem really reasonable on the labor too.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

It's a hot topic around here for months now. Intel dirtbagged it and only recently admitted to the 65W SKUs.

My advice is have MicroCenter build your desktop when you are ready to buy. That way you can pick out the parts and get quality. They seem really reasonable on the labor too.

That's a good idea. I'm also returning to certain OEM offerings to look at getting an AMD-based system.

Building an AMD-based system I'm not so sure about. I'm familiar with the Intel processors and chipsets, but not the AMD-based options.

Since I cashed out my Virginia house, I'm developing a different way of looking at "savings". The new system, like several that preceded it, will come out of savings. It's been 15 years since I last ran up a credit card bill and then paid it off over a few months. There shouldn't be a problem, though. The stock market is going to come back. I don't think I'll spend more than $1,000 to $1,500 on the new build. I've got plenty of spare parts.

 

[Tech Junky]

@BonzaiDuck

There are some niche differences between AMD and Intel. The biggest difference is bifurcation of the slots and Intel doesn't do it on the consumer level. Also, the current 7000/Zen 4 models don't have hybrid cores. Other than that anything that runs on one runs in the other.

I suppose the other big difference is the boards where AMD has 4 levels and they come down to lane allocations and a few features. The Intel Z boards are AMD X670E when comparing top tiers.

Of course it's upgrade season in both camps with new releases coming out. AMD 9000 series switches to hybrid cores on some skus and doesn't offer a huge jump in performance. Intel ARL is a major design change though and might lose some issues at first.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

That's a good idea. I'm also returning to certain OEM offerings to look at getting an AMD-based system.

OEM Prebuilts tend to be garbage. Particularly in the price range you are shopping. Proprietary parts too. MC has advisers that can help you pick the right stuff for your budget. Obviously do your homework so that step is easy, and more of a - them confirming your choices and finding the best deals - conversation. All off the shelf parts is essential as I see it.

Being able to go in store if something goes wrong is huge too. Dealing with OEM tech support and having to ship back the PC is a miserable thing to do. You can probably tell MC not to install any bloatware. With OEM it is best to nuke the whole install and start fresh IMO.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Well -- all good advice. I'm not quite ready yet. Like I said, my best system uses this Kaby Lake K processor, 64GB of RAM, plenty of storage, and no problems running Windows 10. Everything of a serious nature that I do on a computer is integrated with printer/scanner and other hardware to support my life management routine.

I may have to buy some new software licenses.