I Need It Louder

[exar333]

The app may work, but as noted above, the hardware is A) less than ideal and B) far from uniform across devices....

Probably this.

It is likely 'relatively' accurate at <80db, but I would imagine accuracy could be an issue as it gets louder...

 

[exar333]

Calculating for the following:

92db speakers
~3.3m sitting distance (10ft)
125w/channel (2 channels)

=105db (expected)

Your measured 86db is ~the volume expected at 100ft(!?) from this setup...

I don't think the receiver is providing enough power, or the speakers are (in fact) MUCH less efficient than 92db. (with the distance and 125w/ch provided, the speakers would be ~72db efficient) MUCH DIFFERENT vs. 92db.

If you have a different set of speakers or a different receiver to swap, see where the issue might be. That's where I would start.

 

[purbeast0]

JTR is having a moving sale

20% off

if only i needed more speakers lol. i don't see msyelf upgrading like ever to be honest, unless i get a larger space and want to do more than 5.2.

where is he moving to? i haven't really been to AVS at all since i got my stuff all set up.

 

[Anubis]

if only i needed more speakers lol. i don't see msyelf upgrading like ever to be honest, unless i get a larger space and want to do more than 5.2.

where is he moving to? i haven't really been to AVS at all since i got my stuff all set up.

back to IL I think

 

[skriefal]

It's probably a combination of things. Inaccurate SPL-measuring app. Exaggerated speaker sensitivity specs. Exaggerated amplifier wattage. Interaction of the speakers with the room (room modes, speaker placement).

But another that I didn't see mentioned above is that the output voltage of your source device may be too low (at too low of an output volume) to allow the Denon's pre-amp stage to drive it's amp stage to maximum output. i.e. The amplifier stage may have spare capacity that can't be used in your setup. What is your source? CD player? iPod? Other? How is it connected to the Denon? Can you increase the output voltage (volume) there?

 

[Pacfanweb]

You need more power. Separates is the only way to go if that's what you need.

Otherwise, you're stuck spending nearly 2k on a receiver that'll be obsolete in a few years.

Find a good 5 channel amp, used. I picked up an Anthem MCA 5 about 10 years or so ago for about 500 bucks.

It is an absolute beast. It's rated higher because of everyone using the "1 channel driven" numbers, but for this amp, "higher" is like 350 watts with a 4 ohm load like Def Techs are.

But it'll still do 170 watts X 5 channels at the same time. That'll run you out of the room.

You literally cannot stay in my room (which is a bit shorter than yours, but about the same width) until you make it clip. In fact, I've never heard it clip. Can't stand it any louder, and I LOVE it loud.

My speakers are Def Tech BP 2002's, Def Tech center and surrounds, and an M&K V75 sub. None of the Def Techs have any issue dealing with the power.

I used to have a B&K Ref 50 Series II preamp, but it developed issues and I bought a Pioneer VSX 1120 off Craigslist ($175 score!) a year or so ago to replace it, since it had preamp outs and HDMI that would pass 3D.

I highly recommend getting a separate amp. No reasonably-priced receiver is going to have an amp section like a good amp will, and you don't have to worry about the amp becoming obsolete. Hell, a good amp from 30 years ago is just as good as a new one today, sound-wise, other than the 5/7 channel convenience they come in now.

Get a good amp, then get the least expensive receiver you can find with preamp outs. Most of what you pay for in the more expensive receivers is the extra power. I say don't put all your eggs in one basket.
In fact, I'll never buy a receiver or preamp that costs 2k or more again. The B&K broke me of that. Just a few years later, and I needed HDMI and newer codecs. B&K advertised they could be upgraded and did not deliver. It sounded fantastic, though....but if you use the preamp outs with a good amp, they all should sound more or less the same, since they all mostly use the same surround processing chips anyway.

I just looked...there's an Anthem MCA 50 (about the same as what mine is, but newer) on Ebay for about 500 bucks+shipping. I'm sure there are other brands just as good.

Your main speakers are basically the next smaller size than mine, so they'll handle the power, no problem. Only issue is the smaller subs, but as far as overall loudness and how clear they are, a good amp should get you louder than you will want to listen to it.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

Those Def Tech speakers are not particularly good especially with the integrated amp driving the subs. Your reciever has seperate amps for each channel and dual sub output.
Time for new speakers IMHO.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Those Def Tech speakers are not particularly good especially with the integrated amp driving the subs. Your reciever has seperate amps for each channel and dual sub output.
Time for new speakers IMHO.

You must have never heard them, then. They were VERY well-rated and reviewed speakers when they came out.

It's much better to have a separate amp in the speaker driving the sub than to have the receiver doing it.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

You must have never heard them, then. They were VERY well-rated and reviewed speakers when they came out.

You are right they are good. OP wants it louder. He's gonna need new speakers and probably an amp to achieve that goal.

 

[Anubis]

speakers maybe amp no

any modern receiver is powerful enough to push a HE speaker to well over reference levels

hell you can run reference off a T-amp with many HE speakers

 

[crashtech]

I think it is likely OP's Denon has a problem, though. I think Pacfanweb's idea is a good one. A separate used amp won't need to be replaced every time connectivity needs change, I am looking at replacing my RX-V1600 before ever going to 4K, it could be a very expensive transition. I'm thinking of buying bunches of Marantz MA500s because they can be had cheap, and then every time standards change a cheaper A/V receiver (with pre-outs) is all that is required for use as a switching center and preamp.

 

[Chapbass]

Running strictly stereo? Get yourself some headroom with this https://emotiva.com/products/amplifiers/xpa-2 and then a 2 channel preamp of some kind (or just use a whatever quality receiver). Don't know much about those speakers though.

 

[Carson Dyle]

I love threads like this that get dozens of replies, arguments, counter-arguments, and the best effort that the OP can muster is

Haven't checked receiver settings yet...

 

[Pacfanweb]

speakers maybe amp no

any modern receiver is powerful enough to push a HE speaker to well over reference levels

hell you can run reference off a T-amp with many HE speakers

Disagree. You are always better off with more power.

Looking at the specs, the OP's Denon is rated at about 125 watts into 8 ohms. That's probably one channel, maybe 2 at once. It won't do that into all 5 or 7 at the same time.

Whereas, an amp like the one I have, or the similar one I found on Ebay earlier, won't break a sweat doing that, and will have much more left in the tank.

So theoretically, OP could get rid of his receiver, buy a separate amp and a less-expensive receiver that has preamp outs, and have a much more powerful system. AND, he'd be future-proof, as far as power goes. The amp will be good to go for as long as it's working properly.

Now, could he get some bigger speakers and improve things? Sure, but I don't think that's his limiting factor at the moment. Those speakers will handle probably 250 watts. Until he's feeding them that much, he doesn't know if they're adequate or not.
Also remember that most Def Techs are 4 ohms, which works your amplifier even harder. All the more reason to have a separate, more powerful unit.

 

[MongGrel]

Guess I mentioned mine dying a couple weeks ago of course.

Picked up one of these to replace a similar one that was lower power, I just liked the old one in general and have been running some lower Ohm speakers to begin with, after 10 years of that it finally gave up the ghost and still have a second receiver running some old Kenwood 777Z's from 1981 that still sound like they did then for sual Subs.

Cheap I guess, sounds good to me with the other speakers have collected over time in 7.2


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00J356C0K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Haven't cranked it too much, it will run everything I have up enough to make my ears bleed if I want to with no distortion I can hear.

Works for me at any rate, have only cranked it up once tp max and it didn't overheat after an hour so far, half volume will run the wife out of the room.

I'd start looking at band equipment myself if I were going over that level and buy a powered mixing board or and PA Speakers and Monitors I suppose.....

 

[Anubis]

Disagree. You are always better off with more power.

Looking at the specs, the OP's Denon is rated at about 125 watts into 8 ohms. That's probably one channel, maybe 2 at once. It won't do that into all 5 or 7 at the same time.

Whereas, an amp like the one I have, or the similar one I found on Ebay earlier, won't break a sweat doing that, and will have much more left in the tank.

So theoretically, OP could get rid of his receiver, buy a separate amp and a less-expensive receiver that has preamp outs, and have a much more powerful system. AND, he'd be future-proof, as far as power goes. The amp will be good to go for as long as it's working properly.

Now, could he get some bigger speakers and improve things? Sure, but I don't think that's his limiting factor at the moment. Those speakers will handle probably 250 watts. Until he's feeding them that much, he doesn't know if they're adequate or not.
Also remember that most Def Techs are 4 ohms, which works your amplifier even harder. All the more reason to have a separate, more powerful unit.

while what you said is true your missing the point, it takes less then 25 watts to push a speaker with a sensitivity or 92 db 1w/1m to over 100 dB SPL at 10 feet. the denon will do somewhere between 50-75 WPC with all channels driven. more then enough, the main issue here is an inaccurate loudness measurement and unknown AVR settings if all the trims are set at -10 that would explain a lot

if auto correction was run it generally targets a setting of 86 DB at the listning position with peaks over 100, thats what is "reference"
auto correcting with a larger amp does the same thing, you simply have more upper headroom before you start clipping it, but its not needed to get there

separates are nice but are almost always not needed. pretty much everyone i know who is stupid into HT just runs their mains off an AVR, unless they are running an active LCR setup. we have done blind tests and at typical reference levels you can not tell the difference between a low power amp and super power amps.

 

[crashtech]

I always overpower everything. Reason being is lots of amp headroom gives you insurance that you have a perfectly clean waveform where even transient high power excursions will never exhibit any clipping, the bane of all speaker drivers. Besides, it's fun to be able to overwhelm the room with realistic sound at will. Currently my main PC resides in a spare 11'x10' bedroom, with my retired RX-V750 doing amplification duty to retired Atlantic Technology 251LRs with their attendant sub. It's so overkill as to be ridiculous, but there is no question about being able to achieve high SPL with low distortion.

 

[crashtech]

...the main issue here is an inaccurate loudness measurement and unknown AVR settings if all the trims are set at -10 that would explain a lot ...

You said it right there, which means all our posts here are pretty much academic!

It would be fun to hear from the OP.

 

[tential]

Disagree. You are always better off with more power.

Looking at the specs, the OP's Denon is rated at about 125 watts into 8 ohms. That's probably one channel, maybe 2 at once. It won't do that into all 5 or 7 at the same time.

Whereas, an amp like the one I have, or the similar one I found on Ebay earlier, won't break a sweat doing that, and will have much more left in the tank.

So theoretically, OP could get rid of his receiver, buy a separate amp and a less-expensive receiver that has preamp outs, and have a much more powerful system. AND, he'd be future-proof, as far as power goes. The amp will be good to go for as long as it's working properly.

Now, could he get some bigger speakers and improve things? Sure, but I don't think that's his limiting factor at the moment. Those speakers will handle probably 250 watts. Until he's feeding them that much, he doesn't know if they're adequate or not.
Also remember that most Def Techs are 4 ohms, which works your amplifier even harder. All the more reason to have a separate, more powerful unit.

Adding more power is a diminishing returns. An EXTREME diminishing returns...
Surely you know this. I already showed it in my post, theoreticially he'd gain like 3dB moving to an external amp.

 

[crashtech]

Theoretically, but most likely something is wrong with the amp and when the OP doesn't/can't respond, all we can do is throw parts at the problem.

 

[funboy6942]

I used a spl meter on my phone and from 22 feet away from my speakers I hit 113dba 93.88 dba average while playing Knights of Cydonia, though I was only at 88 on my Onkyo TX NR809 no matter if I went louder, without distorting my Acoustech towers, I think I maxed out my phones mic and can hit much more then that but the meter wouldnt go higher no matter if I took it to 95 on the dial......

 

[Carson Dyle]

Here is how this thread is going to end:

"Found the problem. Thanks guys."

 

[MongGrel]

I'm still playing with this new little receiver, I think I just discovered the setting for going deaf if its up too high.

The wife is frowning at me heavily atm.

Just hit multi speaker flat out on this thing at about halfway is as good volume wise as the old one for music.

The other ones are good for HTPC.

Will be using that one for the drum set.

More than enough.

I think there was a computer one I had neglected to bump up, still trying to get things to jive here, only have had it a week.

Here is how this thread is going to end:

"Found the problem. Thanks guys."

Takes a bit of messing with things sometimes.

Still messing.

 

[MongGrel]

I'd be afraid to crank this thing like I did the other day on that one, might have a few satellite speakers explode.

 

[olds]

When into the receivers manual audio settings and moved the sliders up. Tried on small and large. Ran on stereo and pure. No change.