I NEED TO FIND THE ** ATI X1800 XT ** RIGHT AWAY, SHIPPED FEDEX NEXT DAY! AT ANY COST!

[Jojo7]

xMax, the 74gb has a seek time of 4.5 ms. The 36gb has seek of 5.2 ms.
P.S. - Lower seek time = better

 

[xMax]

You are correct Jojo7. I made a mistake when examining the difference between the two.

The 36gb has a track to track seek time of 0.7ms while the 74gb has 0.6ms. Of course they are completely identical in all other specs not relating to capacities.

Clearly thats a tiny difference, but it definitely helps.

Although i dont know where you got your figures from.

But thanks a lot anyways.

Max

 

[Pete]

There's nothing wrong with Intel, it's just that since the A64's been around, Intel's fastest chips have been more expensive and/or consume more power (and thus cost more to run and typically require louder cooling, and noise isn't exactly something people pay a premium for--in fact, this turns your car analogy on its head) than AMD. Us forum-dwellers aren't fans of paying a premium for a name (you're an "Intel guy"), which is basically what you did with your P4EE, at least with regards to your application. That money would have been better spent elsewhere in the system. But, you said $ isn't a problem, so you're unconcerned with our main objection.

Look, the only reason you went with Intel is b/c of ignorance (perhaps coupled with fear of AMD being less "quality"). Those of us who're angry with you are so b/c you're ignoring our advice due to outdated, irrational, or just plain silly reasoning. It's your money, so if you're happy with what you get for it, we can't be upset with that (at least, not if we're rational). What we *can* be upset about is your arguing against our advice with said flimsy reasoning (tho getting upset over an internet argument can be construed as irrational, too ).

 

[Hacp]

Just ignore all of these people. The arguements have gotten way outa topic.

 

[xMax]

I need to know something simple. I will swear to take all your advices. If you are all still going to listen to me.

Is it a common thing for desktop users to get a seagate cheetah 15k scsi hard drive.

Im asking this because all the information in the brochure and on their website talk about enterprise raids and servers and all that non desktop like products.

so is it a standard thing to get one of these for a desktop?

Max

 

[cpacini]

Originally posted by: xMax
I need to know something simple. I will swear to take all your advices. If you are all still going to listen to me.

Is it a common thing for desktop users to get a seagate cheetah 15k scsi hard drive.

Im asking this because all the information in the brochure and on their website talk about enterprise raids and servers and all that non desktop like products.

so is it a standard thing to get one of these for a desktop?

Max

No, in most situations 15k scsi drivs are overkill for desktop computers. There is no reason you could not use one in a desktop application, and it may even be a good idea in your situation, but based on what you said earlier with the relativly short and low fps clips I dont think it would be neccesary.

To be frank, you could probably have bought a $500 dell to do what you need (assuming you actualy are doing nothing but playing 10 second clips at 4fps)

 

[Zebo]

you talk about intel like they are pure garbage. come on. ive bought three intels in my life, and i never once had a single bit of a problem or dissapointement in any ******* with their motherboards and processors.

Well most people here undertand they have a poor price to performance ratio, are slower than AMD, get hot, throttle ( i.e. your 3.7Ghz machine "sometimes", other wise it turns into 2.8), noisy because they require more intense cooling than AMD since they use 3-4X the power! http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/pentium4-670_3.html

We don't hate them, we hate thier product they are offering us. Especially when they have a great chip, pentium M, they refuse to bring to desktop. That chip is probablly better than AMD-64 once it get a couple core additions - and comes to the desktop as conroe/merom. We hate what they did to dupe dumbasses into buying thier chips with high ineffeciet Mhz, aka marketing gimmick.

 

[Pete]

For a consumer desktop? No, simply b/c price and storage space are probably a consumer's primary criteria. For a business workstation? Maybe, b/c purchase price is usually less of a factor than performance and warranty. Typical IDE HDs aren't really meant to be run 24/7 (I believe 8hrs/day was the expected usage from IBM a few years ago) or in a server environment (constant, heavy access), whereas drives sold for enterprise and server environments probably are.

SCSI HDs may also be louder than recent IDE models (due to their speed and maybe other factors, like longevity and usage patterns).

Assuming the Cheetah is louder (spinning and seeking) than, say, a Raptor, then it's up to you whether you value speed or quiet more. Even if the Cheetah is louder, it may not be loud enough to pass your threshold of discomfort, so its noise may be a moot point.

 

[xMax]

Your right pete. The thing is i fear just what you said. You forum people dont like to see someone pay extra money for nothing or for very little gain. This goes along with me fearing that most of you forum people, as far as ive seen, tend to be AMD enthusaists, for the reason just stated.

And the problem is that this thing with paying extra money for the name which usually comes with little added gain is common thing. Its like bying a top of the line subaru and a good bmw that are roughly in the same class. As always, you will end up paying slighly more or a lot more for the beemer when it has very little gain.

And so, my point is that i fear that this is exactly the case with the amd intel issue. i feel feel that the intel is still slightly better, by quality and maybe even by performance, since these two words are just too basic. and so, for this reason and for the reason of forum people tending to be enthusiasts and gamers and people who dont like to see people spending waistless money on a product with little or even very little gain, then i feel that i am not being told correct information. That is, with respect to prive/performance, intel is a bull**** ripoff of a company. and you know what, i think its probably true.

I am not a lamer. ive always hated aol. I dont like internet explorer, as i use firefox. so im definitely like that. but these decisions for these products are for something relating to leasure, not my serious project.

my point is intel is probably slightly better than amd, but that ultimately, for the prive you pay, its a total rippoff.

but i have to pay that price because my deductions tell me to make life simple and take the better chip.

i also just dont understand the advice im getting when i have searched through countless and countless reviews and shootouts and graphs and comparisons. and in all of them, it was always the same story, sometimes intel was better, sometimes amd was better.

so im sticking with intel because you guys think amd is better because you are amd enthusiasts and because you are basing your judjement on price/performance and not simply performance. (i know, the word perfomance. you know what i mean)

But right now i need to know if a seagate 15k rpm is a product that a lot of desktop users buy.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: cpacini
To be frank, you could probably have bought a $500 dell to do what you need (assuming you actualy are doing nothing but playing 10 second clips at 4fps)

A $500 Dell with 225mb/sec bandwidth? Let me know when you find that.

 

[phr0m]

quote:

There is nothing more i can say. You can all disect everything ive said in this last post and certainly find incorrections. But my explanations are not definite, as nothing in this world is, except for one thing right now, and that is that i am intel guy, and thats just the way it is.

i'm pritty sure i do know something that is definite in this world





0 does not = 1
H does not = He
? does not = !
these all seem definite in a tangible and untangible world

 

[xtknight]

sorry, double post.

 

[xtknight]

 

[xMax]

your right phr0m. but what is 0 or 1. and if you say they are numbers. then what are numbers. and if you say numbers are linguistical objects. then what are linguistical objects. and if you say they are simply objects which represent a value of a property of an object or process. then what is an object or process. and if you say an object is a collection of coexistive property value pairs. then what is a value. and it goes on and on and on. and as i have chased it down, it eventually leads to loops or paradoxes which end up making perfect sense and no sense, as how they make perfect sense and no sense in turn make perfect sense and no sense at all, as this goes on indefinitely.

but this is just a quick rough run down. and of course, we species can function without needing to know the definitions of everything to a level of perfection. so yes, 1 is 1 and not 0.


but one of my ultimate questions was simply "how can we claim to know or understand anything when we do not really know or understand what knowing or understanding even is?

anyhow, heres an interesting quote i picked up from some guy in some post in this forum. he was talking about an array of 4 raptors.

"That would be an awesome array - BUT you need to get a RAID card that will keep your CPU usage down - that is key. Onboard RAID's use lots of CPU time, so the benefits you gain in read/write/transfers are somewhat diminished by the fact that your CPU is using like 15 or more percent. "

And if you can all bare with here and accept my philosophy with wanting what i believe is quality, even though i dont need it, then would it be true that having something like two raptors or two cheetahs in a raid 0 array (with the cheetah using scsi) taking up cpu percentage. because if so, and since im using a ramdrive, which requires (as i have discovered) slight disk access, then a single raptor should be perfect me.

i say a single raptor because simply using a scsi adapter card will instantly take up cpe percentage and that is precisely what i do not want.

max

 

[Jojo7]

Actually, taking load off the cpu is one of the things a scsi controller does.
Besides, if you stick a good pci-x scsi controller in a regular pci slot, you are crippling the card from running at its full speed.
Stick with raptors imo.

 

[kyparrish]

OMFG. This thread has to be a joke.

xMax, STOP DRINKING THE BONG WATER.

 

[Chocolate Pi]

xMax, let me try to explain the AMD vs. Intel situation once and for all. This is to inform and enlighten, not to persuade or act as a fanboy rant.

AMD has traditionally been the inferior chipmaker, Intel the superior. Intel was preferred by businesses, while enthusiats enjoyed AMD because they offered much cheaper processors that could overclock to be equal to Intel in speed.

Intel then decided to go down the road they called "Netburst". Netburst was a new design for CPUs, that involved making data move very fast down a long path, instead of slow down a short path. Obviously, the benefit of going faster was nullified by the path being longer, but Intel engineers believed one day this new design would let them go up to speeds exceeding 10 Ghz.

However, just high speeds over a long path produced too much heat. This kept Intel from achieving their lofty goals, for they couldn't even get to 4.0 Ghz reliably! Such high heat made Intel chips slightly unreliable, and for the first time, AMD's processors were more stable than Intel's!

This wasn't the only lucky break AMD had. AMD had successfully created the Athlon 64 while Intel engineers designed Netburst. AMD chips could now work in 32-bit or 64-bit environments with easy. Although this was not important and was soon copied by Intel, that was not the only trick of the Athlon 64. The Athlon 64 processors had memory controllers on the processor die, an important step forward for memory performance that Intel does not have yet.

So, for the first time in a long time, Athlons and Pentiums were going toe-to-toe. Intel was stuck though, while AMD was slowly improving their products. Slowly, AMD became better at more and more things. Finally, it was dual-core technology that tipped things over the edge. Intel's dual core processors, having double the heat of a normal Netburst processor, were not that fast and easily overheated. However, AMD's dual cores obviously did not have the heat problems that came with Netburst. Also, AMD designed their dual cores to communicate between each other, while Intel did not.

This is how we have arrived at the very curious situation today: AMD has the advantage in price, performance, reliability, AND features all at the same time! They have achieved this because Intel's engineers are all tied up designing a replacement to Netburst, you see. (AMD practically has the playing field to themselves)

However, the laptop front is a whole 'nother story. Here, Intel stands strong with a superior product the opposite of Netburst, perfect for laptops: very little heat and power. This is the type of processor Intel will use in 2007, to try to take the crown back from AMD.

Basically, Intel made one big mistake, and that allowed AMD to make processors that are better in EVERY way while Intel designs something new.

 

[phr0m]

0 and 1 are what are in an untangable world, they are something that humans made up to organize objects in some recgenizable pattern. What are objects, they are something that we can feel, and what we feel is what our brains register as feeling, and are brians are made up of tissue, which is made up of atoms, which is made up of electrons circling a dense proton and nutron necleus. philosophy is what found everything and somehow you are trying to make it prove that nothing is real.
and i know what you will say what is real? real is what you believe, if you saw something and i didnt (like dead people) thay would be real to you adn not to me.
soemthing that you probably belive is not real is time, am i right if so pm me becuase i would like to have a long conversation about this and see what you think about it

 

[xMax]

That sounds very rational and interesting. I guess its just hard for a person whose been using intel for so long, and who hasnt paid attention to whats going on in the industry for perhaps more than two years, and who always remembers AMD being inferior, to suddenly accept that AMD is better. Especially when this company, intel, has a very fancy name, logo, and marketing. Im sure the same thing thats happening to me is happening to a lot of people.

But i must say, that based on reviews, graphs, and shootouts, i have always seen the exact same thing; sometimes intel is better and sometimes amd is better. This instantly lead me to believe that its useless to rely on those statistics. And i also noticed that i had never seen a test that was done with a motherboard that utilized a 1066 bus speed that takes full advantage of the P4 that runs at the same front side bus speed. Which makes a big difference in performance. So if you take that, with my suspicion of you guys hating intel because of their price vs performance and not just price, and the previous reason in the first paragraph, then you can see how it was very difficult for me to believe that amd has surpassed intel in the cpu industry. Its like leaving town for many years and then coming back to see this shlep stooge you once remembered suddenly the big huncho. It takes a while to let go.

But im not hanging up gloves just yet. In fact, for every person who has dissed me straight out in this forum, i have but one request. If i am proven wrong, i will make a post on the main forum that i am fool and never come back here again.

I would like to see an extensive elaborate proven to be non biased comparison between the top intel and the top amd chip. But, the top intel chip, being the P4 3.73 with a 1066mhz fsb, has to be setup on an intel based D955 motherboard that contains the x955 chipset and has just about the same exact other componants as the amd machine. Like the ram, the graphics card, and the hard drive, and both tested with xp 32 and 64. If somebody could give me one link that show amd clearly superior, then im out of here!

Until then, im staying here. And for those who wish to help, then thank you. For those who want to insult me, i say "show me the comparison that i outlined before you speak".

You cannot imagine how excited i am to see this graph.

Until now, ive decided to cancel the second twinpack of the Corsair RAM for the simple reason that i will never use more than 1gb. Dont ask me why. So right now, everything is perfect for me. And my further refinements are simply for the sake of putting my mind at ease.

that refinement has to do with the scsi drive. ive decided to let go of the second drive because it just doesnt seem standard or practical and because of what somebody said earlier in some post. but now its come down to one thing and one thing only, a raptor or a cheetah. jojo7 said

"Actually, taking load off the cpu is one of the things a scsi controller does.
Besides, if you stick a good pci-x scsi controller in a regular pci slot, you are crippling the card from running at its full speed.
Stick with raptors imo."

what you ment to say is

"Actually, taking load off the cpu is one of the things a scsi controller does.
BUT, if you stick a good pci-x scsi controller in a regular pci slot, you are crippling the card from running at its full speed.
Stick with raptors imo."

Man, i feel tired.

 

[xMax]

I belive that we are real and not real. That is, the universe is 100% real and 100% virtual. And if this applies to objects, then it should therefore apply to time. But i also believe that real and virtual are two branches on a junction tree where the "real" junction also has two sub branches that are real and virtual, as the primary or most parent "virtual" junction also splits up into real and virtual. As this goes on forever. But that in the end, all these questions dont matter, for its all about the feeling. Pleasure. The full experience!

but im just recalling deductions i made a few years ago. i had to move in a different direction.

And i could be incorrect. In fact, i cant be absolutely correct. that is impossible. we can only be absolutely correct about our understanding of everything when we ujnderstand everything in the perfect way that understanding is supposed to work. And if we ever reach that, then we will certainly not be human.

max

 

[Chocolate Pi]

I think it would be impossible to declare an overall winner; the chips are different enough that you will always be able to find ONE scenario where one wins. For example, an Athlon 64 will ALWAYS win in gaming and web browsing, unless it is a very biased and rigged comparison. I believe Intel processors have abnormally good performance in Microsoft Office and Roxio software, unless I am getting my applications mixed up.

All that can be said is that AMD has slowly taken over a MAJORITY of applications. First content creation, then rendering programs, then even office applications...

Having to declare a definite winner in all things and placing bets on such is a rather silly thing to do. Your CPU, with a motherboard that let's you use it's full power, probably will be no worse than 95% of a top AMD processor. As long as you make sure it cannot easily overheat, you won't notice the difference and there is no harm done.

 

[phr0m]

I belive that we are real and not real. That is, the universe is 100% real and 100% virtual. And if this applies to objects, then it should therefore apply to time. But i also believe that real and virtual are two branches on a junction tree where the "real" junction also has two sub branches that are real and virtual, as the primary or most parent "virtual" junction also splits up into real and virtual. As this goes on forever. But that in the end, all these questions dont matter, for its all about the feeling. Pleasure. The full experience!

at least you have that right

and about the comparison, the ram will be an issue being that intel uses ddr2 and amd uses ddr so the amd platform would have better timings and the intel would have more bandwidth

 

[Kalessian]

Why do you guys even bother with this. It's obvious that all of us enthusiasts, who have kept up with the times even when this guy admits he doesn't, are wrong. The review sites are all wrong. It's all a conspiracy.

If you want Intel so badly, get a P-M with an adapted desktop board and overclock it to 3 ghz or so. That would probably be the gaming performance king. However, it would suck in encoding performance vs a dual core A64.

Anandtech.com wrote a review on the 1066 bus option. It came to the conclusion that the 3.8ghz P4 was faster. The 76mhz or so made more of a difference than the bus increase.

Programs designed to be run on Intel machines are now faster on dual core AMD.

My $146 Venice 3000+, which can overclock to 2.8ghz, is faster than your P4EE.

It's just a god damn processor brand. We're not telling you your faith has been proven to be wrong. None of us are paid by AMD. ATI/nVidia are close in performance, so you'll see a split in the video forums for either brand. There is no such split in the CPU camp, and there is a reason for this.

 

[xMax]

I think this thread has to end now.

 

[DRAGoNX515]

I just read through 7 pages arguing, wow. This is a funny thread.