I returned a broken 8800GTS to frys and they put it back on the shelf

[mruffin75]

Originally posted by: taltamir
@mruffin75: thats at stock... My GS is with a hefty factory OC. It takes more power.

I doubt a "hefty factory overclock" is going to make that much difference in power consumption..

Also you took the power figures from two different reviews.. you ARE aware that they are talking TOTAL system power using different cards on the same system? If you compare the results from two different reviews then you are having a completely different testbed system.

You ARE aware that I said:

"Different systems, so there will be some differences in power consumption..."

They are both Core2Duo systems running at comparable speeds...so there shouldn't be *much* difference in power consumption..

Oh and one last thing... they are TESTING IT WITH CRYSIS... crysis maxes out most CPUs... At desktop maxing out my CPU makes my total system power go from 152 to 205 watts. Thats with the graphics idling on both. I only increased CPU usage on my X2 system... When they test it with crysis they increase total system power draw both due to the card, AND due to the CPU utilization.

Well here's a better review of them both in the same system:

http://techreport.com/articles.x/13772/6

Where it says the 8800GTS uses 49W more under load than the 7900GS (Sorry they don't include your "hefty factory overclock" model...)..

But taking into account that you've got:

a) 5 Hard Drives
b) a more power hungry video card (weren't you also the guy with the thread about how power consumption is bad??)
c) a power supply that should really be called a 450W PSU

Then that sounds like a recipe for a power supply meltdown..

The "400W" minimum that you were talking about earlier...I'm sure they didn't mean "with 5 hard drives in your system" either..

 

[mruffin75]

Originally posted by: SolMiester
Jeez Jag, ya being a bit heavy there mate, the guys only a young bloke, dont give him a complex man!.

He already has one...(which I think is the problem)..

I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not superman!

 

[taltamir]

Now that is a much better review. Showing a realistic difference between the two. of 49 watts (compared to the previous comparison of what... 120 watts difference?)... But considering my OC, lets be generous and say its 40 watts difference instead of 49?... But even at 49 watts more then my previous card. it still not that much...

See even if I DID break the card because lack of power, the key is that the card is still broken and should not be put back on the shelf!
It crashes and produces artifacts at idle, AT IDLE! While this current PSU is working fine at full load with my videocard.
According to that chart a fully loaded 7900GS takes 30 watts more then an idling 8800GTS 512MB.

Yet my GS works fine at max power now, while the GTS was crashing and artifacting on idle... So surely it must have been the CARD the broke, and not my PSU.

And yes... I have 5 hard drives... taking a whopping 1.8 amps more then a single hard drive system would at concurrent activity on all 4 drives... out of 33amps. with the GTS listing a requirement (so it probably gives headroom) for 26 amps for one card, and 30amps for 2 cards...

 

[JAG87]

Originally posted by: taltamir
jag has a grudge against me because I usually tell him to stop being so mean to other people when argues with them... AND usually go and provide evidence that they were right to begin with, so his insults towards them were not just inappropriate, but also unfounded as it is him who is wrong... I started ignoring him to avoid flame wars but since others also say similar things in this thread I am countering the claims he is making this time... as an exception.

SolMiester... even if lack of power CAUSED the video card to break, it was still broken in the end... You claim that my PSU broke in a way that it still works perfectly at "lower" power draws (such as the max power draw of a 7900GS overclocked), but is no longer able to provide the "high" power demands of a 8800GTS when IDLING, where before it was able to provide it with load power for more then a hour in a row... And that is after leaving the computer off for the night?

Ok fine. I am gonna settle it once and for all. I am driving to frys right now to... ok its sunday 7pm. I am going to frys tommorow morning, and getting another GTS and we will see if THAT one is artifacting at idle on my now "broken PSU"... my guess is that I would be able to run it on load with no problems.

except that every time we butted into each other, I was right and you were wrong. like in the SLI thread, you were arguing with me about memory bus width and memory buffer, and how I am wrong about how SLI works. hmm lets see, the thread was about geforce 8 SLI, and you, a single 7900GS owner, are telling me, a dual 8800 series owner, that I am wrong.


here it is for the entertainment of our fellow video members:
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=31&threadid=2114884


and on top of that, you insulted me, telling me that I was wrong and I had no idea what I was talking about. well, pardon my french, but I am not the one making threads about things not working. I try to help people, but there is always the random ignorant who is ignorant by choice, and that is turns my blood into lava.

 

[SolMiester]

Originally posted by: taltamir
Now that is a much better review. Showing a realistic difference between the two. of 49 watts (compared to the previous comparison of what... 120 watts difference?)... But considering my OC, lets be generous and say its 40 watts difference instead of 49?... But even at 49 watts more then my previous card. it still not that much...

See even if I DID break the card because lack of power, the key is that the card is still broken and should not be put back on the shelf!
It crashes and produces artifacts at idle, AT IDLE! While this current PSU is working fine at full load with my videocard.
According to that chart a fully loaded 7900GS takes 30 watts more then an idling 8800GTS 512MB.

Yet my GS works fine at max power now, while the GTS was crashing and artifacting on idle... So surely it must have been the CARD the broke, and not my PSU.

And yes... I have 5 hard drives... taking a whopping 1.8 amps more then a single hard drive system would at concurrent activity on all 4 drives... out of 33amps. with the GTS listing a requirement (so it probably gives headroom) for 26 amps for one card, and 30amps for 2 cards...

Did you say the card need 26amps, the psu review has 320w to the 12v rail so thats only 26amp tops......no wonder the psu gave out!!

I would say the psu has now degraded too much to run the card leaving you to think the card is knackered, and jumping to the conclusions ot Frys despicable action of re-shelfing the card.

I'm sure a new PSU with that card would be all good lad, however you have now learnt several valuable lessons, DONT scrimp on PSU's, test previously thought faulty equipment on known good equipment AND most important of all, there is always somebody more knowledgeable than you just around the corner so be 100% of any statement you make on the internet..

As you were....LOL

 

[taltamir]

The only thing I was wrong about so far is calling my PSU a gem in the rough.. its just a gem... no rough.

The PSU i have might have cost 50$ instead of 100$... but THIS psu was meant for only ONE video card. It provides lots of juice for a single card.
That OCZ for example actually lists that rails 2 and 4 (18amps each) are dedicated to graphics (and it has two graphics power plugs). and that rail 1 is dedicated to CPU, and rail 3 is shared by the rest of the system...
So i guess they really DO split the rails... My PSU has one, and only one, video power plug. and it was meant to run only one video card, but a high end one. Thats the reason for the difference in price.

Here is a CHEAP 500 watt psu for 12$:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16817708001
it has one 18amp rail and thats it... so the everything, including the video card, has to share that.

Here is the most expensive 500watt psu I found 150$ after 10$ instant rebate:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16817151056
Seasonic (best maker of PSU in the world)...
v12 rail 1 @ 17amps (vs 16amps on mine)
v12 rail 2 @ 18amps (same as mine).

You guys just keep on insisting that a single video card that requires 400 watt psu should be ran with some ridiculously overpowered psu. The 8800GTS v3 needs 400watt psu, or 450watts for 2 cards in SLI... get that in your heads. If you buy a 700watt PSU for it you are WASTING MONEY. And when you exceed the power requirements it should crash, but not permanently break unless it is defective.

 

[Hauk]

He may go against the flow, but JAG gets my vote as the #1 comic relief on AT!

I still grin when I think about "Jen-Hsun laughing as he throws a pair of dirty cashmere underwear in your face."

 

[JAG87]

Originally posted by: taltamir
The only thing I was wrong about so far is calling my PSU a gem in the rough.. its just a gem... no rough.

The PSU i have might have cost 50$ instead of 100$... but THIS psu was meant for only ONE video card. It provides lots of juice for a single card.
That OCZ for example actually lists that rails 2 and 4 (18amps each) are dedicated to graphics (and it has two graphics power plugs). and that rail 1 is dedicated to CPU, and rail 3 is shared by the rest of the system...
So i guess they really DO split the rails... My PSU has one, and only one, video power plug. and it was meant to run only one video card, but a high end one. Thats the reason for the difference in price.

Here is a CHEAP 500 watt psu for 12$:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16817708001
it has one 18amp rail and thats it... so the everything, including the video card, has to share that.

Here is the most expensive 500watt psu I found 150$ after 10$ instant rebate:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16817151056
Seasonic (best maker of PSU in the world)...
v12 rail 1 @ 17amps (vs 16amps on mine)
v12 rail 2 @ 18amps (same as mine).

You guys just keep on insisting that a single video card that requires 400 watt psu should be ran with some ridiculously overpowered psu. The 8800GTS v3 needs 400watt psu, or 450watts for 2 cards in SLI... get that in your heads. If you buy a 700watt PSU for it you are WASTING MONEY. And when you exceed the power requirements it should crash, but not permanently break unless it is defective.

Wrong.

this is the most expensive 500w power supply
http://www.ncixus.com/products...Power%20%26%20Cooling/

and it has a single 34A rail. that way you are sure that the rail is powerful enough to power your video card and the rest of your 12v needs.

but if you are going to spend 200 bucks on a 500w power supply, wouldn't it be smarter to spend less on a 750w power supply with 4 rails?

http://www.ncixus.com/products...verstone%20Technology/

that way you make sure that at least 2 of those rails are dedicated for VGA. In your power supply, we have no clue which rail is going were, and you only have 2.

In essence, if you are buying on the edge, you better buy quality, otherwise buy over dimensioned. you did neither of the two and thats why you FAIL at computers.

 

[JAG87]

Originally posted by: SteelSix
He may go against the flow, but JAG gets my vote as the #1 comic relief on AT!

I still grin when I think about "Jen-Hsun laughing as he throws a pair of dirty cashmere underwear in your face."

omg I cant believe you remember that

:heart:

 

[nitromullet]

Here is the most expensive 500watt psu I found 150$ after 10$ instant rebate:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16817151056
Seasonic (best maker of PSU in the world)...
v12 rail 1 @ 17amps (vs 16amps on mine)
v12 rail 2 @ 18amps (same as mine).

First of all, it's debatable if Seasonic is the best PSU manufacturer in the world... I wouldn't go that far, even though my own PSU is Seasonic OEM inside. From what I've read, it looks like Etasis, Win-Tec (PCP&C's OEM for their TurboCool line), SevenTeam, and maybe even Andyson (Ultra X3 OEM) are possibly better. They are usually more expensive than Seasonic too.

Also, just because Seasonic makes a PSU with dual 12V rails that has similar specs on paper, your's doesn't have Seasonic internals so it's not even worth mentioning. Why do you think the Seasonic is $150 and your's was $50 if they are the same? Buying an expensive PSU doesn't guarantee you a high quality product, but buying a cheap one does ensure you of a low quality product. It's pretty simple really, high quality parts are expensive for the manufacturer, so the only way for them to make any money is to charge you more.

 

[HOOfan 1]

Originally posted by: taltamir


Here is the most expensive 500watt psu I found 150$ after 10$ instant rebate:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16817151056
Seasonic (best maker of PSU in the world)...
v12 rail 1 @ 17amps (vs 16amps on mine)
v12 rail 2 @ 18amps (same as mine).

again you don't seem to understand how it works.

The max combined power on the 12V rails on your PSU has been figured at 320 Watts..or 26-27 Amps...the max combined current on the Seasonic's 12V rails is 35 Amps or 420 Watts.

The numbesr 16(actually 15 from what I am seeing) and 18 are just arbitraty numbers that the make of your PSU came up with to limit those rails to. Ok think of it this way....all the components in your system are using 252 watts of 12V power at idle. the videocard is pulling 84 watts or 7 Amps...it pulls it from the rail limited to 16 Amps. The other components are pulling 168 watts or 14 amps from the rail limited to 18 Amps. Ok say you fire up a game and the system goes into load and wants to pull 336 watts of 12V power. Your video card starts pulling 132 watts or 11 Amps...from that 16 Amp limited wheel...still below what it is limited to. The other components are pull 204 watts or 17 amps from that 18 amp limited rail..again still under its limit. But combined they are pulling 336 watts or 28 amps...but your combined 12v rails can only pull 320 watts or ~27 watts...so it cannot provide enough power.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: taltamir
If you buy a 700watt PSU for it you are WASTING MONEY. And when you exceed the power requirements it should crash, but not permanently break unless it is defective.

nonsense ... some people "save" pennies on a marginal PS and then throw away many dollars of their time by troubleshooting elusive problems and RMA'ing HW.

An oversize PS is never a waste ... the way things actually happen is not the way you think they "should happen". If you argue against it you are arguing against the idea of "insurance".

 

[mruffin75]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: taltamir
If you buy a 700watt PSU for it you are WASTING MONEY. And when you exceed the power requirements it should crash, but not permanently break unless it is defective.

nonsense ... some people "save" pennies on a marginal PS and then throw away many dollars of their time by troubleshooting elusive problems and RMA'ing HW.

An oversize PS is never a waste ... the way things actually happen is not the way you think they "should happen". If you argue against it you are arguing against the idea of "insurance".

And if you get a more efficient PSU then you SAVE money on wasted power!!

Taltamir had a big rant about Nvidia saving you money with their hybrid technology... but said NOTHING about a more efficient PSU...I didn't know he had a crappy $50 PSU

 

[Puffnstuff]

Having recently upgraded to a 8800gts from a 7800gt co I can tell you a few observations that I've made. I run an apc battery backup with avr and it tells me what my draw is in software and on the lcd display on the front of the unit. Since I've installed the gts my draw has increased on average by 50w over the 7800gt. A cheap ps with low amps that might have worked right before under the lighter load might be over the line with the new load. My ps has 5 12v rails and 121 amps so power is never an issue with me. If you are near the breaking point already and then upgrade going past what your ps is capable of delivering then you are responsible for the damage that happens. I don't understand why people buy all kinds of expensive peripherals and cards but want to power them with a low quality cheaply priced ps and then go up in arms when things go awry. If all that was lost was a video card then you are lucky this time.

 

[taltamir]

My psu is 85% efficent (at ideal draw... 80% minimum efficiency though)... I wouldn't call that crappy. 50$ for a 500watt psu is NOT cheap...
There are many 500watt psus available for 10-15$... THAT is cheap.

 

[JAG87]

oh gawd, here we go again

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: mruffin75

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: taltamir
If you buy a 700watt PSU for it you are WASTING MONEY. And when you exceed the power requirements it should crash, but not permanently break unless it is defective.

nonsense ... some people "save" pennies on a marginal PS and then throw away many dollars of their time by troubleshooting elusive problems and RMA'ing HW.

An oversize PS is never a waste ... the way things actually happen is not the way you think they "should happen". If you argue against it you are arguing against the idea of "insurance".

And if you get a more efficient PSU then you SAVE money on wasted power!!

Taltamir had a big rant about Nvidia saving you money with their hybrid technology... but said NOTHING about a more efficient PSU...I didn't know he had a crappy $50 PSU

he calls it a "gem" ... not even a "rough gem"

and i carefully stayed out of that silly overstated thread ... i wonder what kind of gas guzzler the OP of that thread drives

... this one just contained too much BS to ignore.

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: taltamir
My psu is 85% efficent (at ideal draw... 80% minimum efficiency though)... I wouldn't call that crappy. 50$ for a 500watt psu is NOT cheap...
There are many 500watt psus available for 10-15$... THAT is cheap.

No, the idea of only spending $10-15 on a "500W" PSU is not cheap, it's idiotic.

 

[taltamir]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16817151040
70$ 500 watt seasonic.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16817153052
60$ with 20$ mail in rebate 500 watt Thermaltake.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16817371004
60$ 500 watt antec.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16817341012
70$ 500 watt OCZ.


Quick FYI, all of these get lower user ratings then mine... for a good reason to. (EDIT: Ignore that sentence please, I was just mentioning it in passing I didn't mean it as evidence of anything. I know the user ratings are pointless since most are pretty clueless)
the nMedia PSU I use is the most expensive NON major brand name 500 watt psu... It is cheaper because it is exactly that, non major brand name. I wouldn't automatically assume nMidia is good now. But I know this specific PSU model is good.

Originally posted by: nitromullet

Originally posted by: taltamir
My psu is 85% efficent (at ideal draw... 80% minimum efficiency though)... I wouldn't call that crappy. 50$ for a 500watt psu is NOT cheap...
There are many 500watt psus available for 10-15$... THAT is cheap.

No, the idea of only spending $10-15 on a "500W" PSU is not cheap, it's idiotic.

Ok you make a good point... but there are plenty of others from 20-50$... You can buy a famous brand name that you know is good, but is probably overcharging you... or you can get a more expensive non major brand name PSU (50$ being the highest those go for) and IF it is good you got a gem, if it is bad you made a mistake... this one is very good.

 

[HOOfan 1]

the Seasonic has 100% 5 egg rating...how is that lower than the nMedia?

I also wouldn't use newegg user reviews as evidence in a debate.

 

[taltamir]

not evidence... I know there isn't much stock in newegg user reviews... I shouldn't have even mentioned that... as for the seasonic having higher... you are right. i missed that one when looking.

But again... the GTS says it needs 400watt psu.. or 450 for SLI...
The most expensive 400watt psu I see on newegg is this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16817104035

With v12 rail1 at 14amps and rail2 at 13amps...

This is THE MOST EXPENSIVE one, at 135$ 400 watt psu (on new egg)...
It is much less then my PSU in every possible way... and this is the requirement for one card... ASSUMING they are not leaving any headroom (in which case it would be lower even).

lets say that one is overpriced and you got an excellent 400 watt psu from a company I know... seasonic:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16817151032
380 watt PSU with 2 12 volt rails at 17 amps each... for 75$

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16817153060
400watt thermal take... for 43$
2x v12 rails @14, and 16 amps.

These are the types of power supplies needed for this card. actually these are the expensive high quality power supplies needed for this card.


An 8800Ultra on the other hand:
http://www.evga.com/products/m....asp?pn=768-P2-N888-AR

Minimum of a 500 Watt power supply.
(Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 34 Amp Amps.)
Two available 6-pin Molex hard drive power dongles

For one card.

 

[Ika]

You're relying on Newegg user ratings now? Lovely.

 

[HOOfan 1]

Lets try to resolve this thread...go ahead and get another graphics card...try it, if it doesn't work...how old is your PSU...maybe you can RMA it....hopefully for a full refund and not just a like replacement. Then get yourself an Antec Earthwatts 500 Watt...I have heard Fry's often runs magnificent deals on that PSU.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: Aflac
You're relying on Newegg user ratings now? Lovely.

no, i mentioned it in passing. Pretend it didn't happen.

Originally posted by: HOOfan 1
Lets try to resolve this thread...go ahead and get another graphics card...try it, if it doesn't work...how old is your PSU...maybe you can RMA it....hopefully for a full refund and not just a like replacement. Then get yourself an Antec Earthwatts 500 Watt...I have heard Fry's often runs magnificent deals on that PSU.

I already said I will...
Besides this isn't resolving the thread.. its resolving the bashing I have been receiving for the second half of this thread by people who keep on telling me that the card I returned to frys was perfectly OK and that what broke is my PSU...
My PSU that is still running a 7900GS at load but for some reason could not run a 8800GTS at idle (40 watts LESS then load on non OCed 7900GS).

I mean it is such an outlandish claim that I do not know why I even bother arguing against it.

Although, I am having seconds thoughts about that... buying a video card just to prove you wrong, and then returning it (since I don't want it) is not exactly the most moral thing to do...

 

[HOOfan 1]

are you saying you don't want a 8800GTS anymore?

I was never bashing you, just trying to enlighten you on some misconceptions you have.

Really you started out the thread bashing Fry's so you opened yourself up a little to criticism.

Your PSU might not be broken, but PSUs do lose their ability to output power over time, especially if stressed. The capacitors age, leak, pop, bulge etc. etc.