I returned a broken 8800GTS to frys and they put it back on the shelf

[formulav8]

I was somewhat upset with Frys until I realized the kind of person this guy is from his replys. I then started to feel sorry for Frys having to deal with customers like him :thumbsdown:



Jason

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: TecHNooB
I hope I get this much help when I build my next PC

The trick is to ask for assistance BEFORE buying, not "I just bought this, what do you think?"

 

[taltamir]

I was right and you were wrong
I was right and you were wrong
I WAS RIGHT AND YOU WERE WRONG

Damn that was nice to get out of my system... I was right.
I went to frys and picked another identical card (the only non return left on the shelf... btw, I saw the card I returned on the shelf!)

Ofcourse it worked without a hitch... This time however I first got ntunes (riva tuner would not detect the G92 GTS for some reason... some people say it works for them, most say it doesn't)

Well the fan is locked at 29% speed... it pushes NO air that I can feel, and I was getting over 70c idle temp... I upped the fan speed to 52% (lowst that is still inaudible) and my temps dropped to 49c idle. I guess THIS one wouldn't burn out when I stress it as long as I keep the fan speed up. (BTW, the fans on the 8800GT is also locked at 29%... which caused so many to fry that eVGA and others are releasing bios updates to make the fans accelerate as temperatures increase)

Ofcourse it booted without artifacts on the first try, because AT IDLE THE GTS TAKES LESS POWER THEN MY 7900GS AT LOAD... and my psu was still supplying the GS at load with no problems even after the previous GTS broke.

So again, I was right and you were wrong. And MANY of you owe me an apology for being derisive, condescending, and sometimes downright insulting...

Originally posted by: JAG87

Originally posted by: HOOfan 1
Hey I agree everyone was being a little to hard on taltamir, I like I originally posted, I won't even say his PSU was at fault. But his argument was faulty because he had and possibly still has some misconceptions about how computers work.

Really I can't imagine just saying you won't even bother with the 8800 anymore....I also can't understand why anyone would be willing to spend $300+ on a videocard but cheap out on the PSU to run it.

fixed

Oh yes... I don't know how COMPUTERS work... JAG as usual you manage to be the absolutely most wrong, and most offensive, and most insulting person I see on the boards. you owe me an apology this time, because I WAS RIGHT. My power supply is good, the card was broken... as proof I bought an identical card and it is working fine... 0 artifacts and it manages to load vista perfectly on my so called "broken" power supply. And no problems with down the road since I upped the fan speed before stressing it.


You know what, I was gonna list all the insults I have received thus far and demand an apology from each and every one of and an admission that I was right and you were wrong... But I am not going to do that. I am gonna let YOU come forward and do that on your own.


Now with no relationship to the apology list... a few things I wanted to say:

Originally posted by: ManWithNoNameMost weren't harsh until page 3 of trying to "enlighten" him. Just read through this whole thread and there were plenty of people trying to enlighten him instead of bashing him. Including a post by Nitro on the first page, another by Keysplayr2003, another by HOOfan 1, plus others. He basically refused to be "enlightened" no mater what anyone said. Small wonder it turned ugly after a while.

I refused to be enlightened because I was right and each and every one of them was wrong! thank you for not being rude and insulting though. (not being sarcastic, I am honestly thanking you)

Originally posted by: Azn
Looks like you broke it and returned it. That's what most people do anyways. Dump the problems to the manufacturer or retailer.

I thought you bought 8800gt from dell why did you buy this from Fry's for nearly $400?

I indeed broke it and returned it... but as I said, it wasn't lack of power that broke it, its the fact that the fan is locked at 29% speed and doesn't push any air on that behemoth.. and I was trying to do the RIGHT thing and prevent it from being put back on the shelf... I just saw it on the shelf though. (I checked the serial number).
thank you as well for not being rude and offensive (honest thanks, not sarcasm)

Originally posted by: dreddfunkThis thread was never written as a request for help. The OP was trying to poke fun at Fry's employees. AT forums just pointed that if you're going to poke fun at someone else, you might want to know what you are talking about. Consider it a life lesson instead of tech support.

Ah yes, the wonderful life lesson of, "it's a-okay to make fun of someone who tried to make fun of someone else as long as they were wrong about their facts."

Nitro, I have to respectfully disagree and say that this is not a valuable lesson to learn.

The valuable lesson to learn is to not poke fun at people for their lack of knowledge. Another valuable lesson to learn is that when you poke fun at people they stop listening to you. Thus poking fun is only about bolstering your own ego at someone else's expense, not about teaching them any "valuable life lessons." A final lesson to learn is that bolstering your own ego at another's expense is pretty unsavory behavior.

In the end, Taltamir simply shouldn't have poked fun at the Fry's employee; and many people here shouldn't have poked fun at Taltamir.

If someone can't be taught, there is no reason to engage in conversation with them. If someone can be taught, there is no reason to deride them.

I wasn't trying to poke fun at the employee, I was frustrated at how quick they are to put items back on the shelf even though they are defective. And how they do not properly test items... And warning people not to buy open box items.
Thank you as well for not being rude and offensive (honest thanks, not sarcasm)

 

[nitromullet]

Well the fan is hard locked at 29% speed...

What kind of GTS do you have that you have apparently gotten two with a locked fan speed. All of the G80/G92 based cards I have owned have all varied the fan speed as the load increased.

I was right and you were wrong
I was right and you were wrong
I WAS RIGHT AND YOU WERE WRONG

Any sympathy you may have garnered or apologies you might have been due went out the window with that statement. That is all I'm going to say about this subject.

 

[Keysplayr]

Ummm. Give it an hour taltamir. Put some load on that card, and watch the very same thing happen. And I don't expect you'll tell us when it does. That's normal. I wouldn't want to tell anyone either.

 

[ManWithNoName]

Originally posted by: taltamir

Originally posted by: ManWithNoNameMost weren't harsh until page 3 of trying to "enlighten" him. Just read through this whole thread and there were plenty of people trying to enlighten him instead of bashing him. Including a post by Nitro on the first page, another by Keysplayr2003, another by HOOfan 1, plus others. He basically refused to be "enlightened" no mater what anyone said. Small wonder it turned ugly after a while.

I refused to be enlightened because I was right and each and every one of them was wrong! thank you for not being rude and insulting though. (not being sarcastic, I am honestly thanking you)

Thank you as well for not being rude and offensive (honest thanks, not sarcasm)

Well, I'm glad you got a working card, but regardless you should still take everything everyone said here to heart regarding power supplies. You can get a great quaity 450w Corsair PSU for about $61 after rebate from Buy.com or a 550w Corsair for $78 AR from Zipzoomfly. Or you can just ride your current power supply until it drops, hopefully it won't take any components with it in the process.

See the post below by Makalu who has a great FAQ on power supplies over on Guru3D. Below he explains what can happen if you're using a marginal power supply and says it better than I can.....

"Well a low quality PSU can be hard on a lot of the things connected to it. If the voltages are either far off nominal or fluctuate a lot or the output contains excessive ripple then the motherboard voltage regulator circuitry has to work extra hard to try and level out and stabilize the voltages. Likewise components directly connected to the PSU will have their DC/DC convertors stressed. Ripple is just damaging overall especially to RAM and MOSFET transisters.

And the closer a low quality PSU is being pushed to it's maximum capabilities the more it's likely to have shoddy outputs (voltage drop, voltage fluctuation and AC ripple). Also of course it lowers the life expectancy of the PSU itself and begs the question of how gracefully the unit will fail when it's time comes. Cheaper units are often the same ones that will damage things connected to them in the process."

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: nitromullet

Well the fan is hard locked at 29% speed...

What kind of GTS do you have that you have apparently gotten two with a locked fan speed. All of the G80/G92 based cards I have owned have all varied the fan speed as the load increased.

I was right and you were wrong
I was right and you were wrong
I WAS RIGHT AND YOU WERE WRONG

Any sympathy you may have garnered or apologies you might have been due went out the window with that statement. That is all I'm going to say about this subject.

If anything should cause me to loose sympathies is that I was so bothered by the put down I have been receiving that I drove 30 minutes to frys (and 30 minutes back) bought a video card for 400$... tested it... and all with the full intention of returning it for a refund later... which is gonna take more of my time and money (gas and tollway).

I am not proud of it nor to I pretend that it was the right thing to do. But I have honestly been so distraught that I felt I had to do so.

Originally posted by: ManWithNoName

Originally posted by: taltamir

Originally posted by: ManWithNoNameMost weren't harsh until page 3 of trying to "enlighten" him. Just read through this whole thread and there were plenty of people trying to enlighten him instead of bashing him. Including a post by Nitro on the first page, another by Keysplayr2003, another by HOOfan 1, plus others. He basically refused to be "enlightened" no mater what anyone said. Small wonder it turned ugly after a while.

I refused to be enlightened because I was right and each and every one of them was wrong! thank you for not being rude and insulting though. (not being sarcastic, I am honestly thanking you)

Thank you as well for not being rude and offensive (honest thanks, not sarcasm)

Well, I'm glad you got a working card, but regardless you should still take everything everyone said here to heart regarding power supplies. You can get a great quaity 450w Corsair PSU for about $61 after rebate from Buy.com or a 550w Corsair for $78 AR from Zipzoomfly. Or you can just ride your current power supply until it drops, hopefully it won't take any components with it in the process.

See the post below by Makalu who has a great FAQ on power supplies over on Guru3D. Below he explains what can happen if you're using a marginal power supply and says it better than I can.....

"Well a low quality PSU can be hard on a lot of the things connected to it. If the voltages are either far off nominal or fluctuate a lot or the output contains excessive ripple then the motherboard voltage regulator circuitry has to work extra hard to try and level out and stabilize the voltages. Likewise components directly connected to the PSU will have their DC/DC convertors stressed. Ripple is just damaging overall especially to RAM and MOSFET transisters.

And the closer a low quality PSU is being pushed to it's maximum capabilities the more it's likely to have shoddy outputs (voltage drop, voltage fluctuation and AC ripple). Also of course it lowers the life expectancy of the PSU itself and begs the question of how gracefully the unit will fail when it's time comes. Cheaper units are often the same ones that will damage things connected to them in the process."

I agree that a quality PSU is important... however none of the five nMediaPC 500 that I used so far has every had a single hiccup... while previously used enermax and antecs power supplies have fried on my and fried my components multiple times... I am not saying those companies are BAD. I am just saying that this specific model is outstanding.. I will take what was said here to heard and make sure to upgrade the PSU at the first sign of trouble...

 

[Hauk]

Phew, wow, what a thread!!

Congrats to all, apparently staying within legal posting parameters! :thumbsup:

Has anyone ever asked about your sig Talt? I'd be inclined to do so, now...

 

[taltamir]

My sig actually started as a joke... From the days I thought modesty was a good thing (live taught me better, you have to sell yourself)... Someone told me I was being arrogant with "a superman complex" because I disagreed with him... everyone laughed and said I was nothing of the sort.
I jokingly replied that "I do not have a superman complex, because I am god, not superman."

People thought it was so funny that I was getting quoted on it months later so I started using it as my signature.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Ummm. Give it an hour taltamir. Put some load on that card, and watch the very same thing happen. And I don't expect you'll tell us when it does. That's normal. I wouldn't want to tell anyone either.

:clock:

 

[HOOfan 1]

glad to hear it is working. As I contended from the start, I didn't say your Power Supply was absolutley the culprit. I was just saying that your assumption on how to calculate the 12V rail amperage was incorrect....which it was.

I never once called you a nasty name or insulted you throughout and I won't now.

 

[Hauk]

Originally posted by: taltamir
My sig actually started as a joke... From the days I thought modesty was a good thing (live taught me better, you have to sell yourself)... Someone told me I was being arrogant with "a superman complex" because I disagreed with him... everyone laughed and said I was nothing of the sort.
I jokingly replied that "I do not have a superman complex, because I am god, not superman."

People thought it was so funny that I was getting quoted on it months later so I started using it as my signature.

I commend you on keeping a level head (for the most part) while facing scrutiny.

It looks like you have a task assigned...

 

[taltamir]

well then... its time to load it up. (I was gonna say crysis but I am already done with it.)

Should I leave the fan at the 52% mark or boost it up to 100% for a loud, but surefire test of the PSU? (I am not 100% certain that 52% would gaurentee that this one wouldn't break either)..

I believe I have already proven that the card I have returned to frys was indeed broken (the whole argument)... the only question is, did it brake because of insufficient cooling (the fault of the manufacturer, because not ONCE did the fan rev up, I would have heard it, at 100% it sounds like a jet engine), or did it break because of insufficient power (my fault). So let us see if the PSU can handle this now.

 

[Synomenon]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I didn't know you could damage a video card by not giving it enough power.

 

[Keysplayr]

Then may the force be with you and your PSU.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: IsLNdbOi
I haven't read the whole thread, but I didn't know you could damage a video card by not giving it enough power.

as far as I know you are right. but you can damage it by letting it run close to the boiling point of water. which is what happened to mine.



So far I am enjoying myself with no problems. Also, my temp while playing the witcher (the game I was played for an hour with the old card before it broke) seems to be 62c with the fan at 52%... that is 10 degrees LESS then my IDLE temp with the default 29% fanspeed.

 

[Syntax Error]

Download RivaTuner.

Monitor Temperatures.

Adjust fan speed as necessary.

Rinse and repeat.

 

[JAG87]

Originally posted by: taltamir

Originally posted by: IsLNdbOi
I haven't read the whole thread, but I didn't know you could damage a video card by not giving it enough power.

as far as I know you are right. but you can damage it by letting it run close to the boiling point of water. which is what happened to mine.



So far I am enjoying myself with no problems. Also, my temp while playing the witcher (the game I was played for an hour with the old card before it broke) seems to be 62c with the fan at 52%... that is 10 degrees LESS then my IDLE temp with the default 29% fanspeed.

k taltamir, let me just wrap it up and explain to everyone why you are wrong, and why your power supply will destroy some more hardware very soon:

when something overheats, it happens quickly, very quickly. it doesn't take 1 hour. overheating happens due to poor heatsink contact or fan failure, and it occurs in a matter of minutes, not 1 hour.

if like you describe the fan was only running at 29%, even under load the temperatures would not go up indefinitely, they would go up to uncomfortable levels like 90c, maybe even 100c, and it will settle there. In case you dont know the 8800 series are rated up to 125c. At 125c the card will freeze and the mosfets will cut down the Vcc. there is virtually no way you can damage a graphics card by overheating.

to conclude, my theory is that your power supply rail reached unsafe levels, and after going past its margins it supplied the card with an unstable voltage (either higher or lower than 12V, yes lower can cause damage because the card will draw more amps when a lower voltage is supplied, ohms law 101). This caused damage to the mosfets on the card (the mosfets are the power regulators at the back of the card in case you dont know), and the mosfets supplied an out of range voltage or current to the gpu/memory, and damaged the card.

now, lets wait and listen carefully for that pop..


edit:
also, pics of the new card or shens

 

[Zstream]

Originally posted by: JAG87

Originally posted by: taltamir

Originally posted by: IsLNdbOi
I haven't read the whole thread, but I didn't know you could damage a video card by not giving it enough power.

as far as I know you are right. but you can damage it by letting it run close to the boiling point of water. which is what happened to mine.



So far I am enjoying myself with no problems. Also, my temp while playing the witcher (the game I was played for an hour with the old card before it broke) seems to be 62c with the fan at 52%... that is 10 degrees LESS then my IDLE temp with the default 29% fanspeed.

k taltamir, let me just wrap it up and explain to everyone why you are wrong, and why your power supply will destroy some more hardware very soon:

when something overheats, it happens quickly, very quickly. it doesn't take 1 hour. overheating happens due to poor heatsink contact or fan failure, and it occurs in a matter of minutes, not 1 hour.

if like you describe the fan was only running at 29%, even under load the temperatures would not go up indefinitely, they would go up to uncomfortable levels like 90c, maybe even 100c, and it will settle there. In case you dont know the 8800 series are rated up to 125c. At 125c the card will freeze and the mosfets will cut down the Vcc. there is virtually no way you can damage a graphics card by overheating.

to conclude, my theory is that your power supply rail reached unsafe levels, and after going past its margins it supplied the card with an unstable voltage (either higher or lower than 12V, yes lower can cause damage because the card will draw more amps when a lower voltage is supplied, ohms law 101). This caused damage to the mosfets on the card (the mosfets are the power regulators at the back of the card in case you dont know), and the mosfets supplied an out of range voltage or current to the gpu/memory, and damaged the card.

now, lets wait and listen carefully for that pop..


edit:
also, pics of the new card or shens

Sorry to burst your bubble but that is only somewhat correct. Less power generally and rarely will cause problems, unless a bad mosfet already existed.

http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/article/1482/

 

[Fayd]

Originally posted by: nitromullet

Originally posted by: Zap

Originally posted by: nitromullet
I thought you said it didn't perform all that much better than your 7900GS...? I have both of those cards as well (7900GS just so happens to be my backup card), and I can assure that a perfectly running 8800GTS 512MB provides a noticeable (and HUGE) upgrade from a 7900GS.

I can't quite tell a performance difference either. Starcraft looks the same on both cards.

I'm not sure if you're joking here or not... StarCraft came out in 1998, and it's not stressing either card. Try something like Oblivion on both cards and see how you feel about it then.

dude, baldurs gate 2 will tear your 8800GTS a new one!

 

[HeXploiT]

Originally posted by: taltamir
I went and bought an eVGA 8800GTS v3 512MB at frys... ~350$ + tax = 389$.
I put it in, that was a pain since the card was HUGE and I had to shove one of my 5 hard drives in the floppy bay to make it fit.

Well, I started playing, it was a little better then my 7900GS but not too impressively so. I noticed it is running HOT, very hot, but rivatuner couldnt change its fan speed settings (or any low level settings on it).

It crashed after about an hour of playing the witcher. After letting it cool down I Was able to post again, but I Was getting horrible artifacts (wavy white lines across the entire screen 1 inch apart) even in bios.

So I went to frys to return it. I told the guy it is defective and exactly what happened. He put down "unwanted" as reason of return and printed a price sticker and put it on it. I told him "you are just going to put it back on the shelf? it's broken!" He stuttered a bit, said they will test it, and made a sticky note that said "test" on the card.

He then stared at me and asked "say, what kind of power supply do you have"
"500 watts"
"Are you sure its enough?"
"It is more then enough, besides watts dont mean anything, my PSU is rated for 33 amps on the 12 volt rail and this card only needs 24"
"But the 8800 series require a lot of power"
"Yes but this is a G92 based part, it requires very little power in comparison".
"But, didn't you say you had to move a hard drive, how many do you have?"
"Five, but again, they use a different rail then the video card"
... he gave me another funny look, and then he went and changed the sticky note from "test" to say "test for post". (which I Said before, it posts, it just artifacts badly, and runs HOT).

I feel sorry for whatever poor sob ends up buying this as an open box, especially because he only reduced the price by 5$ (from 350$ to 345$).

Once again I am reminded why one should never, ever, buy open box hardware at frys.

Glad I read this.

 

[LOUISSSSS]

just give 3dmark06 about 3-5 runs and that'll most likely tell u if your new card is good to go!

also, do it while running Prime95 (v25.5)

don't worry about your scores or anything, you're testing for system stability here, not system performance.

 

[JAG87]

Originally posted by: Zstream

Originally posted by: JAG87

Originally posted by: taltamir

Originally posted by: IsLNdbOi
I haven't read the whole thread, but I didn't know you could damage a video card by not giving it enough power.

as far as I know you are right. but you can damage it by letting it run close to the boiling point of water. which is what happened to mine.



So far I am enjoying myself with no problems. Also, my temp while playing the witcher (the game I was played for an hour with the old card before it broke) seems to be 62c with the fan at 52%... that is 10 degrees LESS then my IDLE temp with the default 29% fanspeed.

k taltamir, let me just wrap it up and explain to everyone why you are wrong, and why your power supply will destroy some more hardware very soon:

when something overheats, it happens quickly, very quickly. it doesn't take 1 hour. overheating happens due to poor heatsink contact or fan failure, and it occurs in a matter of minutes, not 1 hour.

if like you describe the fan was only running at 29%, even under load the temperatures would not go up indefinitely, they would go up to uncomfortable levels like 90c, maybe even 100c, and it will settle there. In case you dont know the 8800 series are rated up to 125c. At 125c the card will freeze and the mosfets will cut down the Vcc. there is virtually no way you can damage a graphics card by overheating.

to conclude, my theory is that your power supply rail reached unsafe levels, and after going past its margins it supplied the card with an unstable voltage (either higher or lower than 12V, yes lower can cause damage because the card will draw more amps when a lower voltage is supplied, ohms law 101). This caused damage to the mosfets on the card (the mosfets are the power regulators at the back of the card in case you dont know), and the mosfets supplied an out of range voltage or current to the gpu/memory, and damaged the card.

now, lets wait and listen carefully for that pop..


edit:
also, pics of the new card or shens

Sorry to burst your bubble but that is only somewhat correct. Less power generally and rarely will cause problems, unless a bad mosfet already existed.

http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/article/1482/

dude, if the voltage dropped for example, the card needs to draw more amps to obtain the same amount of power in watts. P = V x I

P needs to be constant for the card to work, and V should be constant, which produces a static I value. when V goes down, I must go up to compensate, but the mosfets are rated to run only a certain amperage, if you go over that you destroy them.

a little fluctuation is acceptable, no power supply is stuck dead on at 12.00V, but when the fluctuation is excessive, you can cause damage, whether the fluctuation is up or down, despite what people think.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: Syntax Error
Download RivaTuner.

Monitor Temperatures.

Adjust fan speed as necessary.

Rinse and repeat.

Riva Tuner does not "work" with my card... that is, it will not monitor or change anything.
A lot of people are having that problem with the G92 based cards. I don't have any idea why it works for some and not for others, but I have been fiddling with it for an hour before giving up. I just let ntunes set my fan speed, thats all I Really need anyways.


4 hours of consecutive gaming and still not a single stutter. I think the performance is better too... Also I haven't noticed any more "stutters"... which I attributed to lesser performance before, but may have happened due to overheating.

 

[Syntax Error]

Originally posted by: taltamir

Originally posted by: Syntax Error
Download RivaTuner.

Monitor Temperatures.

Adjust fan speed as necessary.

Rinse and repeat.

Riva Tuner does not "work" with my card... that is, it will not monitor or change anything.
A lot of people are having that problem with the G92 based cards. I don't have any idea why it works for some and not for others, but I have been fiddling with it for an hour before giving up. I just let ntunes set my fan speed, thats all I Really need anyways.

I don't know where you hear of G92s not working with RivaTuner. I personally set up fan profiles for my 8800GT and the fan profiles kick in perfectly.

Look for tutorials and guides for it to work properly, if RivaTuner doesn't work properly on your computer, it must be something in your setup preventing compatibility (OS or bugs) or your drivers are not being detected for some reason.