I think China is really going to do it...

[CFP]

Speaking of throwing fits, not much more can be expected from petulant HK ideologues. The reality is hk needs china far more than vice versa, thus despite all this wishful thinking nothing good will come of any fall of beijing for hk.

You'll get no argument from me here. But playing whataboutism, which the Chinese love to do, is missing the point here. China's not, and won't be a superpower. It tops out as a regional power before starting to collapse under it's own weight. IMO, I'd be interested to see how decentralisation of the government plays out to remove some of that massive overhead, but with corruption and "fuck you got mine" being so central to modern Chinese culture, there's probably no way it ends well, and is academic anyway as it won't happen anytime soon.

 

[CFP]

Not necessarily disagreeing, just unaware, how does HK need China? They were doing quite well for themselves when they were still part of the UK, and independent Asian city-states already have a proven record as also seen in Singapore. (Unless you're saying simply that China doesn't "need" HK at all, in which case I agree.)

HK needs China, at the most basic level, for resources. We import almost all of our water, food, and power from China.

HK doesn't need to worry about military or political protection so we can discount it as needing China for that.

But what you're looking at, should HK separatists get what they want, is a radical change in the economy, with basic life stuffs becoming extremely unaffordable for the average person.

The average salary in HK is something like 15k HKD (or roughly 1.9k USD), while the median is 15,500. But rent is comparable to the Bay Area in the heart of the city, and your basic 200sqft flat will do you in 1k usd a month or more. Presumably if China cuts ties with HK, it cuts down on mainland Chinese businessmen inflating our property market as a way to launder money, but not by much.

With a population of 7 million, it takes little imagination to picture what happens if we have to start importing our resources from countries other than China. (It gets very expensive.) Essentially, tons of people fall into relative poverty, unable to afford basic needs. This is worst case.

This is a bottom-heavy economy with extremely toxic distribution of wealth. Crony capitalism is king in HK, and all the wealth is concentrated in land owner tycoons who have wink-wink deals with the government and contribute nothing back to society. There is no such thing as "trickle down" in Hong Kong. This is a first world hyper-capitalist city with no significant safety nets, too, outside of functionally free healthcare.

The only mitigating factor is that the HK government has absurd amounts of surplus money that it can spend.

 

[trenchfoot]

Good luck with that, a day late and a dollar short, America and other countries are now reaping what they sow,

*snip*

But then doesn't history show that exact confounding delayed reaction toward looming adversaries whereby a call to war by the USA against an worthy enemy is argued over and bandied about between the isolationists and war hawks until extraordinary efforts are required to set the dogs of war loose en mass? Of course, that excludes those drummed up "wars" benefiting the likes of Halliburton et al.

It seems to me this delay has many players involved, most of them being big business interests, compatriot immigrant groups and those opportunists with influence at the highest levels of gov't protecting their agendas from harm.

I agree with you in what you say about America reaping what it sowed, but only in the sense that that is the short term result of corporate greed and foreign policy decisions heavily influenced by it. In the longer term, we still have more "reaping" to go through up to the point where national security interests take precedence over corporate greed and the working American's desire for dirt cheap products manufactured by dirt cheap labor.

 

[Svnla]

Amusing coming from an american. Trying iterating the number of wars & such each respective nation's been in for the past few decades if you ever learned to count.

Before you open your mouth and spew out ignorant statements, read a few history books and learn a few things instead of throwing around some fancy words you had no clue how to use.

Since the creation of commie china in 1949, did you see the US or any nation on Earth invade the neighbors and then took their land and islands as china had been doing? Did you see anyone ram small wooden fishing boats from the neighbors as china did? Did you see anyone captured poor fishermen and took their fishes then demanded ransom money as lowlife pirates as china did? Did you see anyone claim 90%$ of international body of water as china did (in which the Court verdict recently was a big slap onto china face and lies). Shall I go on? Look like you need to learn how to read and count.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste indeed. Amusing even more from an American like you.

In other news, china could push the envelope even further very soon - http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...-make-big-move-the-south-china-starting-17350

Stay tuned and we will see how things will turn out.

 

[bshole]

Since the creation of commie china in 1949, did you see the US or any nation on Earth invade the neighbors and then took their land and islands as china had been doing? Did you see anyone ram small wooden fishing boats from the neighbors as china did? Did you see anyone captured poor fishermen and took their fishes then demanded ransom money as lowlife pirates as china did? Did you see anyone claim 90%$ of international body of water as china did (in which the Court verdict recently was a big slap onto china face and lies). Shall I go on? Look like you need to learn how to read and count.

China is flexing its muscle as it becomes a super power. We have bombed Libya, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq in the last few years. Who has China bombed?

 

[Svnla]

China is flexing its muscle as it becomes a super power. We have bombed Libya, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq in the last few years. Who has China bombed?

Do you see the US or anyone claims and swallows Libya, Afghan, Pakistan, Iraq, or anywhere in the last few years as china did with Tibet, East Turk (Xinjiang), Inner Mongolia, parts of India, Paracels and parts of Spratlys from Vietnam (at least Vietnam was able to slaughter ten of thousands chinese invaders during the 1979 invasion by china or Vietnam would be a goner as an independent nation by now), Scarborough Shoal from Philippines? Do you see the US or anyone on Earth did anything remotely as stupid and ridiculous as I stated in the statements that you quoted? Do you get it yet?

 

[agent00f]

Before you open your mouth and spew out ignorant statements, read a few history books and learn a few things instead of throwing around some fancy words you had no clue how to use.

Since the creation of commie china in 1949, did you see the US or any nation on Earth invade the neighbors and then took their land and islands as china had been doing? Did you see anyone ram small wooden fishing boats from the neighbors as china did? Did you see anyone captured poor fishermen and took their fishes then demanded ransom money as lowlife pirates as china did? Did you see anyone claim 90%$ of international body of water as china did (in which the Court verdict recently was a big slap onto china face and lies). Shall I go on? Look like you need to learn how to read and count.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste indeed. Amusing even more from an American like you.

In other news, china could push the envelope even further very soon - http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...-make-big-move-the-south-china-starting-17350

Stay tuned and we will see how things will turn out.

History is pretty clear that one country routinely fights some gratuitous war every someodd years, and other doesn't. Before going on about books, consider googling for the wiki page(s) which lists violent conflicts each country has partaken in last few decades. In fact, if you're able to find more countries on the map you can also crosscheck america's record against them, too.

Not necessarily disagreeing, just unaware, how does HK need China? They were doing quite well for themselves when they were still part of the UK, and independent Asian city-states already have a proven record as also seen in Singapore. (Unless you're saying simply that China doesn't "need" HK at all, in which case I agree.)

HK did rather well because it was a if not the portal to china & british asia in general for the west, particularly for financial services. This is no longer the case. Also, if it comes to hardball, china can make life very difficult for HK just like the US can for cuba.

 

[agent00f]

You'll get no argument from me here. But playing whataboutism, which the Chinese love to do, is missing the point here. China's not, and won't be a superpower. It tops out as a regional power before starting to collapse under it's own weight. IMO, I'd be interested to see how decentralisation of the government plays out to remove some of that massive overhead, but with corruption and "fuck you got mine" being so central to modern Chinese culture, there's probably no way it ends well, and is academic anyway as it won't happen anytime soon.

People are quick to see the decadence of the current ccp, substantial as it might be, without considering their overall competence at top-down economic mgmt. The asian economic "miracle" plan requires broad coordination at all levels, and they've been executing that to a t. Starting with simple export industries like textiles, they've been building up to microelectronics and possibly beyond, all while paving modern infrastructure through state-commercial (banking) cooperation. I recall some 10 years ago shanghai had maybe 1 subway line, and now they're up to 15 traversing the entire metropolis, all while western cities have trouble building another 1. Sure everybody skims off what greases the wheels, but the result is things still get done.

 

[bshole]

People are quick to see the decadence of the current ccp, substantial as it might be, without considering their overall competence at top-down economic mgmt. The asian economic "miracle" plan requires broad coordination at all levels, and they've been executing that to a t. Starting with simple export industries like textiles, they've been building up to microelectronics and possibly beyond, all while paving modern infrastructure through state-commercial (banking) cooperation. I recall some 10 years ago shanghai had maybe 1 subway line, and now they're up to 15 traversing the entire metropolis, all while western cities have trouble building another 1. Sure everybody skims off what greases the wheels, but the result is things still get done.

Yea China would get scary really quickly if they ever got a fascist leader looking for glory.

 

[Svnla]

History is pretty clear that one country routinely fights some gratuitous war every someodd years, and other doesn't. Before going on about books, consider googling for the wiki page(s) which lists violent conflicts each country has partaken in last few decades. In fact, if you're able to find more countries on the map you can also crosscheck america's record against them, too.

So no answer for my questions above (posts 29 and 31) about china's behavior? Then by default, my statements are true.

LOL @ you trying to use Wiki instead of history books. How sad and pathetic.Learn a few history lessons of Asia before you open your mouth and try to debate with me. Better luck next time, kiddo.

 

[agent00f]

So no answer for my questions above (posts 29 and 31) about china's behavior? Then by default, my statements are true.

LOL @ you trying to use Wiki instead of history books. How sad and pathetic.Learn a few history lessons of Asia before you open your mouth and try to debate with me. Better luck next time, kiddo.

I'm simply pointing out that you lack the basic facts necessary about comparative violence of each to even begin talking about more sophisticated subtopics/sources. It's similar to pointing out someone can't do arithmetic when they're trying to brag about their calculus. Take your time to figure this out what that means before reply.

If you want to talk about calculus so to speak, try googling tibet history for example and eventually discover (hope springs eternal) that before it broke off during the western colonial era at the behest of the british it was part of china for longer than the US has been a country.

 

[Svnla]

I'm simply pointing out that you lack the basic facts necessary about comparative violence of each to even begin talking about more sophisticated subtopics/sources. It's similar to pointing out someone can't do arithmetic when they're trying to brag about their calculus. Take your time to figure this out what that means before reply.

If you want to talk about calculus so to speak, try googling tibet history for example and eventually discover (hope springs eternal) that before it broke off during the western colonial era at the behest of the british it was part of china for longer than the US has been a country.

Still no answer to the questions I mentioned above? Therefore, by default, you LOSE. Just take it and shove it and keep your mouth shut. Very simple to understand. Do you know anything about the old saying "put up or shut up"? Seriously.

Again, either you provide answers to my questions above or hit the road. No amount of spin will change the facts, foolish newbie and stop quoting me if you are unable to debate honestly.

 

[agent00f]

As mentioned, questions about calculus are rather pointless for someone who can't figure out arithmetic. There's really no simpler way to put this. I even answer one, not so much because I thought you'd understand it but rather to demonstrate you don't care about answers anyway.

 

[Svnla]

As mentioned, questions about calculus are rather pointless for someone who can't figure out arithmetic. There's really no simpler way to put this. I even answer one, not so much because I thought you'd understand it but rather to demonstrate you don't care about answers anyway.

You are such a clueless fool.

So by your logic, Tibet was a part of china years ago so it is ok for china to invade and take it again? So by the same logic, let Mongolia takes china as whole again, let Manchuria takes china as whole again, let Japan, Britain takes parts of china again? Let Vietnam takes southern parts of china and Korea takes the land north of Yalu River because they used to own those parts many years ago? Do you want me to go on? Let Italy takes most of Europe again, let Britain takes US again. Hell, let rearrange the borders around the world just because years and years ago, so and so happened. See how stupid and ridiculous it is yet?

History fact - china was about 1/3 of its current size when it was created years ago. So let the neighbors take back their land that china took, right?

Do you see how foolish your previous statement about Tibet was? Look like you have no freaking clue and you have the sheer stupidity to say anything about can't figure out arithmetic? Take a close look at yourself at the mirror, newbie.

 

[agent00f]

Tibet seceded when the rest of china was in considerable turmoil & not exactly in a condition to do anything about it. The communists took it back after consolidating power.

But I suppose in fairness, you probably think the union didn't have good reason to fight over southern secession.

 

[chucky2]

If China is going to do it, no one is really going to stop them. Other nations know the West is essentially a paper tiger other than sanctions, and really, WhoTF is going to sanction China? China knows this, they're going to use it to their advantage. I mean, who are they going to have as POTUS the next 4 years to oppose them? Billary. Do you really think Billary is going to do anything real to challenge China? LOL...No...

 

[cyclohexane]

If China is going to do it, no one is really going to stop them. Other nations know the West is essentially a paper tiger other than sanctions, and really, WhoTF is going to sanction China? China knows this, they're going to use it to their advantage. I mean, who are they going to have as POTUS the next 4 years to oppose them? Billary. Do you really think Billary is going to do anything real to challenge China? LOL...No...

Nor should anyone "challenge" them. Why? For what benefit? Is the US going to go to war for the Philippines? Absolutely not.

China is going to make the Philippines their bitch, and the US will let them do it.

 

[Svnla]

Tibet seceded when the rest of china was in considerable turmoil & not exactly in a condition to do anything about it. The communists took it back after consolidating power.

But I suppose in fairness, you probably think the union didn't have good reason to fight over southern secession.

Did you say Tibet and china situation is similar as Confederate and Union situation?

It shows that you have no freaking clue about Tibet because Tibetans are NOT hans. They have nothing similar. LOL x 1000000000000.


Oh, one more thing, by the same logic of yours, then why china would not dare to take on Russia and take back the vast land (over 600 thousands square kilometers), outer Manchuria, and Vladivostok that Russians took from them since 1800s? Why not take on Vietnam, Korea, etc. because those countries were vassal states of china many years ago? Oh, china did try to invade Vietnam in 1979 and ten of thousands chinese invaders lay dead at the border by the local Vietnamese militia force while the rest ran back home.

Keep digging deeper and I will keep laughing harder and louder. Goodness, here is a dollar and buy a clue or better yet, learn a history lesson or two.

 

[agent00f]

Did you say Tibet and china situation is similar as Confederate and Union situation?

It shows that you have no freaking clue about Tibet because Tibetans are NOT hans. They have nothing similar. LOL x 1000000000000.

Not altogether surprising that a southerner believes countries should be split along racial lines. Maybe it would help the hans' case with you if some of them enslaved tibetans.

Oh, one more thing, by the same logic of yours, then why china would not dare to take on Russia and take back the vast land (over 600 thousands square kilometers), outer Manchuria, and Vladivostok that Russians took from them since 1800s? Why not take on Vietnam, Korea, etc. because those countries were vassal states of china many years ago? Oh, china did try to invade Vietnam in 1979 and ten of thousands chinese invaders lay dead at the border by the local Vietnamese militia force while the rest ran back home.

Keep digging deeper and I will keep laughing harder and louder. Goodness, here is a dollar and buy a clue or better yet, learn a history lesson or two.

It's pretty obvious you either couldn't understand the simple sentence you were replying to, or don't know how dates work. Either way it's not my responsibility to ensure comprehension since I'm not some special ed teacher.

There's little doubt that Mao had a thing for fighting wars, a rather good fit for conservative american leadership if he were white.

 

[Svnla]

Not altogether surprising that a southerner believes countries should be split along racial lines. Maybe it would help the hans' case with you if some of them enslaved tibetans.



It's pretty obvious you either couldn't understand the simple sentence you were replying to, or don't know how dates work. Either way it's not my responsibility to ensure comprehension since I'm not some special ed teacher.

There's little doubt that Mao had a thing for fighting wars, a rather good fit for conservative american leadership if he were white.

You have no freaking clue about Tibet and its culture and history so I called out your ignorant and now you try to pull the race card? Again, Tibetans are NOT han chinese. It was a pure invasion by commie china, not a union preservation as you foolishly claimed.

It is you that do not understand simple history facts and now you try to insult me? LOL. Look like you are the one that need to take basic world history class again. Still nothing to answer my questions above? Nothing? Just like you. So sad and pathetic. Keep digging deeper, insert foot onto your mouth and let everyone know so. Look like Wiki and Google did not save your foolish ass this time. LOL.

Want to continue debating with me? Answer my questions above or shut the hell up. No more chit chat.

 

[chucky2]

Nor should anyone "challenge" them. Why? For what benefit? Is the US going to go to war for the Philippines? Absolutely not.

China is going to make the Philippines their bitch, and the US will let them do it.

It's weird, I thought we were like, pretty close with the Philippines? I know China allows us to pretend we don't have slaves anymore (well, South American "immigrants" too), but I'm not sure we'll abandon the Philippines like that - but maybe you're right and we will.

I'm not sure how much of a war it'd be though if kept local, the US would steamroll the Chinese, badly. This will only get worse as late 2020's hits and F-35 reaches real penetration numbers and maturity; to say nothing of F-15 modernization and F-22 improvements (to the extent they would be used). By the mid-2020's we will be at the point where we could literally fly through enemy airspace at will, hard to project power when everything Mil you own is wrecked...

 

[agent00f]

You have no freaking clue about Tibet and its culture and history so I called out your ignorant and now you try to pull the race card? Again, Tibetans are NOT han chinese. It was a pure invasion by commie china, not a union preservation as you foolishly claimed.

You really should read the tibet wiki entry about their long history as part of china. The reason why it doesn't match up with what you know is because it's not sourced from right wing revisionism (you know, the sources which validate your beliefs that the civil war wasn't about slavery). You can also of course check out material about tibet at the library, just try to find the history section and not politics. You can tell it's the right book if the sentences have too many big words kind of like something I would write.

It is you that do not understand simple history facts and now you try to insult me? LOL. Look like you are the one that need to take basic world history class again. Still nothing to answer my questions above? Nothing? Just like you. So sad and pathetic. Keep digging deeper, insert foot onto your mouth and let everyone know so. Look like Wiki and Google did not save your foolish ass this time. LOL.

Want to continue debating with me? Answer my questions above or shut the hell up. No more chit chat.

I've sufficiently demonstrated why it's an exercise in futility to engage with the likes of you, the replies only get more tangential and incoherent. And AFAICT I'm not obligated to discuss anything on the level of a moron.

 

[Svnla]

You really should read the tibet wiki entry about their long history as part of china. The reason why it doesn't match up with what you know is because it's not sourced from right wing revisionism (you know, the sources which validate your beliefs that the civil war wasn't about slavery). You can also of course check out material about tibet at the library, just try to find the history section and not politics. You can tell it's the right book if the sentences have too many big words.



I've sufficiently demonstrated why it's an exercise in futility to engage with the likes of you, and AFAICT I'm not obligated to discuss anything on the level of a moron.

You are still trying so hard to cling on Wiki? I rather get my information from books with authors that spend years to do serious research instead of Wiki pages that any idiot could edit and change and from Tibetans themselves. See, that is the BIG different between you and me. I rather get my information and sources from reliable sources and you will settle on Wiki. <snickering>

Still no answer to my questions? Here they are again:


"So by your logic, Tibet was a part of china years ago so it is ok for china to invade and take it again? So by the same logic, let Mongolia takes china as whole again, let Manchuria takes china as whole again, let Japan, Britain takes parts of china again? Let Vietnam takes southern parts of china and Korea takes the land north of Yalu River because they used to own those parts many years ago? Do you want me to go on? Let Italy takes most of Europe again, let Britain takes US again. Hell, let rearrange the borders around the world just because years and years ago, so and so happened."

What is the matter? Why can't you answer those simple questions? Wiki and Google could not save your stupid ass? LOL x 10000000000000000.

All talk and nothing substantial.

One more thing, it was YOU that quoted me first, I did NOT quote you, remember? It was YOU that tried to engage me with history and I was more than glad to teach you with history facts. Get the story straight and stop lying, moron.

 

[agent00f]

You are still trying so hard to cling on Wiki? I rather get my information from books with authors that spend years to do serious research instead of Wiki pages that any idiot could edit and change. See, that is the BIG different between you and me. I rather get my information and sources from reliable sources and you will settle on Wiki.

An encyclopedia provides a summary of info from standard, often academic, sources as a baseline intro to a topic. When someone's claims are refuted by basic sources of fact it's a pretty good sign that they're cranks, in this case political revisionists.

Still no answer to my questions? Here they are again:

So by your logic, Tibet was a part of china years ago so it is ok for china to invade and take it again? So by the same logic, let Mongolia takes china as whole again, let Manchuria takes china as whole again, let Japan, Britain takes parts of china again? Let Vietnam takes southern parts of china and Korea takes the land north of Yalu River because they used to own those parts many years ago? Do you want me to go on? Let Italy takes most of Europe again, let Britain takes US again. Hell, let rearrange the borders around the world just because years and years ago, so and so happened.

What is the matter? Why can't you answer those simple questions? Wiki and Google did not save your stupid ass? LOL x 10000000000000000.

All talk and nothing substantial.

One more thing, it was YOU that quoted me, I did NOT quote you, remember? It was YOU that tried to engage me with history and I was more than glad to teach you with history facts. Get the story straight, moron.

[/QUOTE]

"Tibet seceded when the rest of china was in considerable turmoil & not exactly in a condition to do anything about it. The communists took it back after consolidating power."

There's something about this sentence that is beyond you, and it would be easier if you could help identify the reason. I tried guessing at it, like for example you don't know to compare circumstances in time, and since that didn't jolt anything it rather makes sense you don't know what that means.

 

[Svnla]

An encyclopedia provides a summary of info from standard, often academic, sources as a baseline intro to a topic. When someone's claims are refuted by basic sources of fact it's a pretty good sign that they're cranks, in this case political revisionists.

"Tibet seceded when the rest of china was in considerable turmoil & not exactly in a condition to do anything about it. The communists took it back after consolidating power."

There's something about this sentence that is beyond you, and it would be easier if you could help identify the reason. I tried guessing at it, like for example you don't know to compare circumstances in time, and since that didn't jolt anything it rather makes sense you don't know what that means.[/QUOTE]


====================================
See you are LYING again.

You never said anything about encyclopedia but wiki only. This is EXACTLY what you said, in your own words =

"Before going on about books, consider googling for the wiki page(s)"

See it? In black and white, wiki pages only, nothing else.. LIAR!!! Pants on fire.

Took it back? Fine, then let Mongolia, Manchuria, Britain, Japan take it back. Fair is fair as I raised in the questions above. Let Vietnam and Korea take back their ancient land from china. The mods said your IP is from the US but your logic and debate skill are just like a foolish clueless wumao from commie china. Same logic (take back Tibet because <insert lies>) but would not dare to answer about Japan takes china back. How sad and impotent, just like a chinese eunuch.