I thought that European governments understood very well the dangers of appeasement.

[Rison]

Well, how nice of you to ignore the fact that the civil rights movement didn't start until well after the war and that during the 40s blacks and "coloureds" were 2nd class citizens.

Yeah, but we still exterminate 6 million africans.

 

[Nemesis77]

<<

<< (USSR doing most of the fighting in WW2) >>


Actually, that is categorically incorrect. Yes, Russia did a large percentage of the fighting in the European theatre, but, when you add the Pacific theatre into the fold, the U.S. did the most overall fighting during WWII................ >>



You are right, Pacific was mostly USA show . I would say that you did... 70% of the fighting there. Commonwealth counting for about 25% and rest going to Soviets. As you notice, I ignored China. Too confusing war to keep up with. And those figures are my own guesstimates, feel free to disagree with them .

 

[Martin]

<< It's like when a family has a maniaK in their home and they invite the neighbors to neutralize it. While the kins may have fought alongside the neighbors, the ill is still associated with them. >>



Even though the neighbours are close relatives that were originaly from that family and share the same views?

 

[Red Dawn]

<< You mean the war of 1812 where the US tried in vain to invade Canada but failed? >>

Lucky for Canada none of your relatives were defending her.

 

[Martin]

You know, I find it kind of ironic that americans look down on europeans because of appeasement, while the US didn't even join in the war until a year and a half after the war started.

Let's face it, after WWI, no sane person would have wanted a war, neither france, nor UK, nor the the US. Appeasement seemed right at the time, but hindsight is always 20/20 as they say.

 

[Rison]

We've have never shared socialist views. Capitalism all the way, baby.

 

[Mani]

Appeasement may not have worked with Nazi Germany but I don't see Israel's eye-for-an-eye mentality doing a whole lot for them either, do you?

 

[glenn1]

<< nemesis77, when I say Europe, I mean that it was a source of the ideology. It was the Europeans that formulated all those racist, socialist, and communistic ideals. It was Europe that spread it across the globe. Marx and Engel were Europeans. Europe is the home of all those ills. Hence, I say Europe. While governments from over ther may have fought with us, it was a homegrown (yours) problem. >>



Yes, and Europe was also the source of the idealogy the U.S. is based on. It was the Europeans that formulated all the Age of Enlightment ideals which were the basis for the Declaration of Independence, Federalist Papers, and U.S. Constitution. Voltaire, Rosseau, John Locke, and Adam Smith were Europeans.

What's good for the goose...

 

[Nemesis77]

<< nemesis77, when I say Europe, I mean that it was a source of the ideology. It was the Europeans that formulated all those racist, socialist, and communistic ideals. >>



Theoretically you are correct. Karl Marx (German) "invented" socialism. Lenin (russian) evolved it in to communism (I haven't really studied the history of communisn/socialism, so my names may be wrong). Adolf Hitler (Austrian) was one of the founding member of national-socialism, which then mutated in to nazism. But just because those things happened in Europe, you shouldn't judge entire continent because of that. It would be the same if I judged entire USA because of Richard Nixon .

If we used global scale instead, you could say that entire world sucks because nazi-germany was located on this planet



<< It was Europe that spread it across the globe. Marx and Engel were Europeans. Europe is the home of all those ills. Hence, I say Europe. While governments from over ther may have fought with us, it was a homegrown (yours) problem. >>



Alot of bad things have happened in countries that just have happened to be located in Europe. That as such doesn't make Europe bad. Yes, nazi-germany was bad and it was located in Europe. But one shouldn't draw the conclusion that "nazi-germany is in europe. Nazis did alot of bad things. Therefore Europe = suck". That would be the same if I said USA = suck because first americans killed alot of native-americans. I'm not. Those things happened in the past, and things have changed alot since then (for Germany, Europe and for USA)

 

[Rison]

Jews have always had that mentality. Glad to see that they're still around. Sooner or later, the arabs will break down and join the New World Order.

 

[Martin]

<< We've have never shared socialist views. Capitalism all the way, baby. >>



Don't medicare, social security and all those others exist in your world? I was under the impression that the US had SOCIAL programs like that.


Face it, every 1st world country is a social democracy, some more than others.

 

[UltraQuiet]

<< Well, how nice of you to ignore the fact that the civil rights movement didn't start until well after the war and that during the 40s blacks and "coloureds" were 2nd class citizens >>


So you are comparing ethnic cleansing and the Nazi's with our racial problems? Stretching it a bit aren't you. We have had/have racial problems but we are not killing our own citizens by the millions because of the color of their skin or their religion.


<< And you guys still have a long way to go. My parents have friends from Georgia and some of the stuff that they tell (regular day-to-day stuff) would never happen up here. And if it did, it would probably be some huge scandal. >>


What kind of "stuff"? And don't act like your country is perfect. I have been there. I spent a lot of time in Vancouver when I was stationed in Washington. You have your problems. Don't you dare tell me the French in your country don't look down their nose at everyone else.

Most people give the lion's share of the credit to the US Submarine force for winning the war in the Pacific. Japan had literally no merchant shipping at the end of the war. My opinion could be biased though.

 

[ToBeMe]

<< You know, I find it kind of ironic that americans look down on europeans because of appeasement, while the US didn't even join in the war until a year and a half after the war started. >>


Um.......that wasn't "appeasment" that kept us out the first years.............it was known as "Isolationism", which the U.S. was also blasted for! We can't seem to win huh????? We keep to ourselves and some hate us.........we try to be involved, and they hate us more....... One thing can be said though........the U.S. has not backed down or denied help in any conflict when provoked, or asked to assist!

Let's face it, after WWI, no sane person would have wanted a war, neither france, nor UK, nor the the US. Appeasement seemed right at the time, but hindsight is always 20/20 as they say.[/i] >>


WWII could not have been avoided..........Hitler would have provoked it at some point no matter what and IMO WWI had little to do with the onset of WWII........Hitler was just a person whom wanted supreme power and thought he had the instrument to obtain it!

 

[Martin]

<< Jews have always had that mentality. Glad to see that they're still around. Sooner or later, the arabs will break down and join the New World Order. >>



its not really hard when you get the US' unconditional support...

And a lot of people that don't have that mentality have been around for just as long.

 

[Rison]

Things have changed, but you guys don't want to learn from it. I'm sure Europe is a great place to be but the anti-americanism is disgusting because it is, again, a battle between ideologies. I say this because a lot of Americans are descendents from Europe and the only thing that differentiates us are ideologies. You guys have a hard time conceding defeat and acknowledging that everything you do isn't good. When we turn away, you complain. When we engage, you complain. You're like women, never satisfied.

 

[Martin]

<< WWII could not have been avoided..........Hitler would have provoked it at some point no matter what and IMO WWI had little to do with the onset of WWII........Hitler was just a person whom wanted supreme power and thought he had the instrument to obtain it! >>



Of course, yet if you look at some documents from that time, leaders (I think I read one of Chamberlain's letters in a history book) thought Hitler's demands were quite reasonable and that he didn't want conflict.


All I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't bash the europeans for something you yourselves have done. You wanted peace, so you isolated yourselves. They wanted peace, but they couldnt isolate themselves so they appeased...

 

[Martin]

<< Things have changed, but you guys don't want to learn from it. I'm sure Europe is a great place to be but the anti-americanism is disgusting because it is, again, a battle between ideologies. I say this because a lot of Americans are descendents from Europe and the only thing that differentiates us are ideologies. You guys have a hard time conceding defeat and acknowledging that everything you do isn't good. When we turn away, you complain. When we engage, you complain. You're like women, never satisfied. >>



The same can be said for americans you know. I'm sure more than a few europeans are sick of your euro bashing. You have a hard time conceding defeat too.


Face it, they are not perfect, and neither are you. But you don't wanna admit the US isn't perfect.

 

[Martin]

<<

<< Well, how nice of you to ignore the fact that the civil rights movement didn't start until well after the war and that during the 40s blacks and "coloureds" were 2nd class citizens >>


So you are comparing ethnic cleansing and the Nazi's with our racial problems? Stretching it a bit aren't you. We have had/have racial problems but we are not killing our own citizens by the millions because of the color of their skin or their religion.


<< And you guys still have a long way to go. My parents have friends from Georgia and some of the stuff that they tell (regular day-to-day stuff) would never happen up here. And if it did, it would probably be some huge scandal. >>


What kind of "stuff"? And don't act like your country is perfect. I have been there. I spent a lot of time in Vancouver when I was stationed in Washington. You have your problems. Don't you dare tell me the French in your country don't look down their nose at everyone else.

Most people give the lion's share of the credit to the US Submarine force for winning the war in the Pacific. Japan had literally no merchant shipping at the end of the war. My opinion could be biased though. >>




1. Racism and anti-semitism was rapant throughout the world. Both canada and the US denied entrance to jewish refugees. To deny that the US had any problems while calling europe (germany != europe) a hot bed for racism is ridiculous.

2. Canada is not perfect and has many short commings, but when it comes to racism and such, we are better. And yes, some french canadians are whiny little turds, but others are alright.

 

[ToBeMe]

<<

<< WWII could not have been avoided..........Hitler would have provoked it at some point no matter what and IMO WWI had little to do with the onset of WWII........Hitler was just a person whom wanted supreme power and thought he had the instrument to obtain it! >>

>>





<< Of course, yet if you look at some documents from that time, leaders (I think I read one of Chamberlain's letters in a history book) thought Hitler's demands were quite reasonable and that he didn't want conflict. >>


I think you really need to do a lot more in depth reading! Hitler's plans included the inclusion of Europe under his command............this is in writing..........how does one go about taking over countries "peacefully"??????? Also, how does one explain away the huge military build up of Germany during the pre-war years if military force was not something that was to be utilized????? Again, this is all documented and can be found by searching.........


All I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't bash the europeans for something you yourselves have done. You wanted peace, so you isolated yourselves. They wanted peace, but they couldnt isolate themselves so they appeased...[/i] >>


So what they (you) decide to do is correct policy for everyone???? Damn.......we should have "appeased" Hitler and just fought Japan then I suppose........

 

[Rison]

too bad the french have changed (for the worse). They used to be such great friends to us AMericans. For a while, they were also the only friends the Israelis had. What happened?

 

[Nemesis77]

<< Things have changed, but you guys don't want to learn from it. >>



Quite the contrary. One of the main resons why UK and France tried everything to avoid war with nazi-germany was because they still remember what WW1 was like and they didn't want it to happen again. Can you really blame them?



<< I'm sure Europe is a great place to be but the anti-americanism is disgusting because it is, again, a battle between ideologies. >>



You make it sound like Europe is the home of anti-americanism. That the media here constantly bashes everything USA does and people have anti-USA demonstrations each weekend. Sorry to rain on your parade, but it's not like that. We watch american movies, we have american shows on TV, we read books by american autors, we listen to american music... Overwhelming majority of people here think quite fondly of USA. And the governments are close friends with USA. It's just that people don't speak when they agree, they speak when they disagree. You never really hear of those things we agree with USA, you just hear about the things we disagree with.



<< I say this because a lot of Americans are descendents from Europe and the only thing that differentiates us are ideologies. >>



Which in reality are much closer to each other than you think.

Free market/Capitalism? Both have it. Democracy? Both have it. What is different is the form those things manifest in Europe and USA. But deep down, they are same. Both Europe and USA are market-driven free-market societies with democratic elections. Those similarities mean that Europe is more similar to USA than most of other worlds nations. Sure there are differences, but in the grand scheme of things, they are minor.

 

[astriy]

<< Canada is not perfect and has many short commings, but when it comes to racism and such, we are better. And yes, some french canadians are whiny little turds, but others are alright. >>



uhmm, US has a more diverse population and a higher percentage of blacks. It's easier not to be racist when most of people around you are of your race

as far as french canadiens go. I think we've established that no one likes them.

 

[Rison]

what's a cappo di tutti cappi?

 

[Nemesis77]

<< what's a cappo di tutti cappi? >>



Boss of bosses. Leader of leaders. Usually refers to Mafia

 

[CocaCola5]

Many countries in Europe have lost complete generations due to war and they are a bit more cautious. The US have been relatively isolated to foreign threats. The only comparable lost the US had in terms of lives was the Civil War and that war made the country much closer(North and South) as a result.