I WANT 3DFX BACK!!!!!!

[BenSkywalker]

Wingz-

"That's what I used to say about the dual processors and the power supply for the V5. But, the nVidia fans didn't agree with me. Now when nVidia does something similar, it makes sense."

Single chip and lower power draw then the NV10, unlike the V5. The biggest problems with the V5 from what I saw was that OEMs wouldn't want a dual chip board(I was right) and it wouldn't fit in some cases(ditto). Having one monstrous chip has actually been the theme that most supporters of the nV methodology to faster vid cards have been pushing.

Blackhawk2-

"I've often wondered why you defend Nvidia so adamantly. Care to spill the beans?"

If you are a general user buying an all around board right now, buy the Radeon. I have been saying this for some time now only reccomending nV to those who work with high end 3D applications. You don't have to take my word for it though, go ahead and search through my posts. I just don't like BS

"Ya and compare both those designs to the Gigapixel GP-1 (3 million transistors) and it looks like a real sloppy design."

The GP-1 isn't close to comparable to the NV20 or Rampage, not in a single aspect that I can think of. The GP-3 would have likely whipped them all, and we may end up seeing that at some point. If it uses less transistors I could care less, if it outperforms them then I care. WTF should I care for how the chip is designed if it is transparent to me, the end user? If someone can give me everything I want with 10K transistors I'll buy it. If it takes 100Billion I'll buy it, either way as long as they work.

 

[BenSkywalker]

"BenSkywalker, I never insulted you, is this your intelligence shining through?"

You are not honestly stating that you believe half of what you are saying are you?


BTW- I probably did not make this clear enough in my last post. I do not own nVidia stock, I have not, nor likely ever will work for nVidia. I don't have any friends nor contacts at nVidia. I do not work for any company affiliated with nVidia. I am also not defending nVidia if you would look at what I am saying. We are discussing particular principles in 3D technology/design using nVidia as an example. If S3 came out with a 300 million transistor monster capable of blowing everything else away designed by the seven dwarfs while they were intoxicated I would buy it, even if they called it Virge. I don't care who makes it, or the design philosophy behind it, I just want to buy the best part possible in my price range whenever I am buying.

 

[Blackhawk2]

The traditional theory is that more transistors = greater die size = greater cost = greater end price for the consumer. Thats why I care about transistor counts. Not to mention the large amount of juice huge transistor counts use and the amount of heat they give off. Remember the original Geforce and the "special code" Nvidia implemented to prevent it from overheating?

Also didn't one of the NV20 board manufacturers state that the NV20 might require a "special" cooling system? Anything that requires a special cooling system screams "stay away".

 

[BenSkywalker]

"The traditional theory is that more transistors = greater die size = greater cost = greater end price for the consumer. Thats why I care about transistor count."

Check the price difference between an Athlon 1.2GHZ and a G4 533MHZ chip.

Actual chip costs aren't all that high. Right now, the main issue isn't the chips, it is the memory bandwith. Chip die size isn't nearly as big a concern as finding memory that can feed the chip enough data to process. That point would be a much better one then the actual die size of the chip which is an extremely weak argument. Nothing in the market backs the claim that a high end "tiler" will be less expensive then a "traditional" in terms of cost to end user.

Is your signature a bash at 3dfx for so grossly misrepresenting their in game performance when compared to their theoretical peak? I wouldn't be too hard on them, all companies use the same formula(math) to calculate their peak rates.

What is making me curious is why you always bash nVidia? ATi is using the same architectural principles as nVidia, why not bash them?

Edit You keep editing your posts while I'm replying so I'll do the same instead of bumping this thread up to 200 posts by 2pm

"Not to mention the large amount of juice huge transistor counts use and the amount of heat they give off."

Both lower then the V5, though that is a tradtional. The fact is that if it doesn't effect me as an end user, why should I care?

"Remember the original Geforce and the "special code" Nvidia implemented to prevent it from overheating?"

When overclocked, yes. nVidia put in a feature that would have saved Robo's V5 from frying, tell me how that was a bad idea?

For NV20 and special cooling- My Duron does, so will the TBird I'm moving to, I could care less. It works and doesn't effect me as an end user why should I care? I have to spend an extra couple of minutes for the CPU/heatsink/fan/thermal grease, nothing with the vid card.

 

[Blackhawk2]

<<...Is your signature a bash at 3dfx for so grossly misrepresenting their in game performance when compared to their theoretical peak? I wouldn't be too hard on them, all companies use the same formula(math) to calculate their peak rates.

What is making me curious is why you always bash nVidia? ATi is using the same architectural principles as nVidia, why not bash them?>>

Yes my signature is a bash at both Nvidia and ATI. It would be a bash at 3dfx if they still existed as well. Nvidia bought out 3dfx's deferred rendering technology (I believe that Nvidia has no intention of using it, even though I beleive it is superior to what Nvidia has), I don't like the companies marketing strategies nor do I like how Nvidia is shuffling off the cost of rushed R&amp;D for the X-box's graphics chip onto the PC graphic card market while they are selling the X-box chips at or below cost to Microsoft. The R&amp;D for those chips was paid for partly by Microsoft and its 200 million contract with Nvidia but mostly I beleive the PC graphics card market is paying for the X-box's graphics chip. Maybe I'm wrong but thats how I feel.

 

[KarlHungus]

KarlHungus, no sh*t sherlok, I meant to say with no textures or shading, sorry for not being extremely explicit. I guess with some people you must make it so clear they can't mistakenly flame you.

Pretty defensive huh? When did correcting an obvious mistake consitute a flame? Perhaps you do know what you're talking about, but it sure doesn't come across as such in your posts. Your childish behaviour certainly doesn't help matters either.

Also, anyone who thinks it is &quot;simple&quot; to synthesize a chip of the complexity of a modern graphics accelerator has never used VHDL or Verilog.

 

[Blackhawk2]

Ya that was defensive, I was being hammered on offensively from three sides though. It was a natural human reflex

<<..Also, anyone who thinks it is &quot;simple&quot; to synthesize a chip of the complexity of a modern graphics accelerator has never used VHDL or Verilog...>>

Where you pulled that quote and accredited it to me is beyond my imagination.

In my brothers room at a breif glance I can see three books: One called &quot;VHDL Made Easy!&quot; by David Pellerin and Douglas Taylor, another called &quot;The Designer's Guide to VHDL&quot; by Peter J.Ashenden and a CMOS book called &quot;CMOS IC Layout: Concepts, Methodologies, and Tools&quot; by Dan Clein.

My brother is an Electrical Engineer (majoring in ASIC design with a passion for graphics, he has a lot of DirectX and OpenGL books), and a good one at that, thats all I can say about that .

Where does my info come from? Conversations with my brother and information from people like pm that post on this board. I don't tend to think I know it all or even pretend to.

 

[Oblique]

BenSkywalker-



<< designed by the seven dwarfs while they were intoxicated I would buy it, even if they called it Virge. >>



I'm right there with you about the drunken shorties, but there's no way in h3ll i'd buy a Virge...

 

[KarlHungus]

Blackhawk2 -

LOL, sorry about that. The VHDL comment was not directed at you, I just didn't feel like finding the exact comment that was posted some time back. It seemed that there were several people in this thread that just assumed it was a walk in the park to synthesize a graphics chip design. I too only have a smattering of VHDL knowledge (garnered as an elective towards my master's degree), and let me tell you it's hard enough to design a damn traffic light controller let alone a gfx chip. I would actually be very suprised if anyone built a chip completely &quot;by hand&quot; anymore. Perhaps pm could enlighten us.

 

[mylam]

NV20 will rule

 

[chuckieland]

did 3dfx shareholder already pass on the deal that sell itself to nivida?
I hope the shareholder vote no, and that bring back 3dfx

 

[BFG10K]

Right, I'm back from my GF2 MX upgrade. For the record everything's working perfectly now (except for the Start Menu corruption). I ran some timedemos of all my 3D games and I'll likely post a thread and put them up later. For a budget card it's getting some great framerates and the image quality is very nice.

BenSkywalker, I'm not posting to argue but I'd just like to make a few things clear.

Why is it that there is documentation about the problematic AGP slot in your computer?

My motherboard is listed as being able to run a GF DDR because it has the jumpers to supply more power to the AGP slot (ie it's a rev 1.2). But yes setting my AGP slot to x1 transfer solved the lockup problems, as you've already seen.

My assupmption on your comments on 2D quality were the issues you were having with 640x480 16 color 60HZ, if that is not the case then no, that wouldn't be a mobo caused issue.

No, I was talking about the multitude of reports from people who experience a blurry/fuzzy image quality at high res, which is caused by cheap RFI filters blocking too much of the signal. However, for the record my CARDExpert looks just as good as my Voodoo 3 does at 1024 x 768 x 75 Hz.

Additional problems, not waking up from sleep mode, entire windows leaving massive screen corruption making the system unuseable, constant hard locks and crashes, icons refusing to do anything when clicked on, I could keep going.

OK. I never realised that AGP problems could affect non-3D operations so much.

 

[ultravox]

This thread has been a good read and enlightening to say the least. I am a Voodoo fan from way back and I was banking on getting a V5 until the sh*t hit the fan. I still wanted that V5 but was realizing that since I keep my cards for over a year, I should get an Nvidia based card.I resigned myself to that fact, but after reading this thread I have decided to throw caution to the wind and get that Voodoo 5500. After all, my Voodoo 3000 is still great IMO. Numbers and tech terms mean nothing to me. I noticed a difference from my Voodoo2 in my V3 but the numbers meant nothing. I just want a card that I can throw in and start playing.....not have to dick around and de-bug this and DL the latest fix for that. It's about eye candy..nothing else. I've alway found that 3DFX cards have brilliant saturation in the colours and the 2D is sharp and not at all unpleasant. As for furure support?? I'm sure that by the time the Voodoo550 is lacking, there will be an abundance of third parties making drivers for the hardcore Voodoo guys.

3DFX is dead....long live 3DFX

 

[MSNY]

gcliv -

Sorry you think you wasted your money. I've been with nvidia since the first TNT and ran a rig with Voodoo 2's in SLI. I now have a Geforce DDR. I think I've had the best of both worlds and I way prefer nVidia to anything 3dfx ever made.

I have NEVER had one problem with either the TNT or GeForce in my systems. I've had four since the orginial V2 setup. I've upgraded drivers from version 2.08 to 6.31...never a hitch either.

Suggestions...
Did you install the drivers correctly ? Uninstall the Voodoo drivers first ? Switch to VGA mode, then install the nVidia drivers ? If you didn't do these steps there could be conflicts with the old drivers and new ones...hence the cause of your lockups. Instead of blaming nVidia why not troubleshoot the problem ? Also, I've known plenty of people who had similar stories as yours but with Voodoo cards...wonder why ?

Never saw all these &quot;incompatibilities&quot; you claim to have read. My nvidia cards have always worked perfectly...wonder why ?

So I don't see your point....
&quot;That is unacceptable. nVidia is just like Microsoft, they release a new product and are already working on the bug fixes before it even gets in the consumer's hands, now THAT is a SHODDY product. I don't care if 3dfx IS dead, I'm buying a V5, it's a vastly superior product.&quot;

I'ts funny you mention that, 3dfx NEVER did release a full OpenGL driver but continued with mini GL's for years..and they were beta. Some of those old version were real nasty and never worked right. So again i don't see your point. Great with Glide, terrible with OpenGL.

It's a free market...go ahead ! The radeon may be a better choice for you. The video world has changed, and so must we.

 

[TravisBickle]

I'm not sure your optimism will make a difference to linux drivers. linux seems to be difficult to do multiple chip drivers for.

 

[gcliv]

MSNY:

Please, don't insult my intelligence. I KNOW how to install drivers. I've used many Geforces on many systems, all with consistent problems, so please don't BS me.

 

[MSNY]

&quot;Please, don't insult my intelligence...&quot;

Insult you ? I can't find any intelligence in your argument to insult.

You are the insult to everyone here that has used nvidia cards without any of your so called &quot;problems&quot;. Your just a 3dfx fan boy that wants to have a forum to spit flames with nothing to back it up.

The rest of of us don't buy your dribble. 3dfx is out of business. Live with it...

 

[gcliv]

Apparently most of the 100 other replies disagree.

There seem to be a few nVidia employees on this forum....

 

[chuckieland]

i must have to agree with gcliv
3dfx man be out of business
but that is because of their lack of management
when comes to product. 3dfx got reliability.
Remember v5 suppose to match with the first Geforce 256 SDR

 

[han888]

MSNY, if u search in this forum, u will find too many nvidia owner have a problem, and then if nvidia dont have any problem on the driver, they dont need to produce too many driver ( u count by yourself how many driver release already until now ) and btw i have both card ( voodoo5 with v7700 ) so i am judge from the what i see, not from the review over the net or just bullsh!t talking from anyone

 

[MSNY]

Agree or disagree - I'm speaking from experience..

Fact is I owned V2's in SLI for over 2 years and there drivers very very buggy and always beta.
I've been in both worlds and had the best of em'. Most of the nVidia drivers out are leaked betas and not official. If you count the official one's it's around 6 releases for 4 or 5 cards in over 3 years. Thats not a lot really. Bugs are fixed but we saw AA and T&amp;L improvements come about. Also better support for DX6, 7 and 8.

No there NOT perfect, but look who is in business and who is not ? Why make wild exagerations from one persons bad experience ?

 

[han888]

Fact is I owned V2's in SLI for over 2 years and there drivers very very buggy and always beta.

V2? ok let's say voodoo2, have u try voodoo3 or 4 or 5? for me the asus v7700 is not a first nvidia card, i ever owned asus v6600, asus v7100 , tntm64 ) all my previous card base on nvidia chipset. and until now i am still confuse to choose the driver. with this driver i got lock up on this game, with that driver i lose my frame rate, ahh too manyyyyyyyyyy

but look who is in business and who is not

the 3dfx bankrupt it's cause by poor management, nvidia have a lot of channel to make the card (asus,abit,visiontek etc) and it's have a good marketing

in conclusion, i am not said the geforce card is not good, but i am prefer my voodoo5 in image quality and the driver rather than geforce card, for the fps of course i will say my v7700 is the best

 

[gcliv]

MSNY:

You aren't the only human on the planet with experience. I will admit that driver support wasn't awesome on the V2s, but still a helluva alot better then nVidia releasing another buggy driver every six hours. And what about the other Voodoo cards? They had EXCELLENT driver support. It would be a shame to judge all of 3dfx's drivers based on just a V2.

 

[hans007]

stop playing games... =yeah . Matrox g400 rules! haha. ok, seriously get a radeon, most of the win2k issues are fixed in the special drivers (then again those aren't full release, but they are pretty good from what my friend who is Hawk here said)

 

[Sunner]

<< What is making me curious is why you always bash nVidia? ATi is using the same architectural principles as nVidia, why not bash them? >>


Thats pretty much what I was asking you Blackhawk.
I didnt say pm lied when he said NV20 was designed by computer programs rather than handcrafted, but what I said was that ATi is probabaly doing the same thing, and the most I've heard you ever complain about them is saying something like &quot;Oh yeah, this goes for ATi too&quot; once in a while in reply to these questions.

Keep this up, and you'll be to nVidia what Hardware was to 3Dfx.