I want to argue with a liberal please!

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Lash444

Golden Member
Sep 17, 2002
1,708
63
91
It's amazing how so many here have misinformation on firearms and are convinced they know what they're talking about.. These beta males need some help..

This type of response is exactly what the original poster was trying not to entertain. Everyone here could go to their Facebook to listen to their least favorite family member spout a response like yours. Add something of substance next time.
 
Reactions: mikeymikec

Kneedragger

Golden Member
Feb 18, 2013
1,192
45
91
This type of response is exactly what the original poster was trying not to entertain. Everyone here could go to their Facebook to listen to their least favorite family member spout a response like yours. Add something of substance next time.

All the other gun threads have my substance. What I'm pointing out is the same thing is happening in this thread when people try to talk about guns...

What the OP didn't want has happened before my post already.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
As a classical liberal, I would like to know why conservatives are so opposed to the proposition that all persons are created equal, and yet still consider themselves patriotic constitutionalists. As It would seem self-evident that one can't be a 'strict constitutionalist' while opposing equal protection of the laws, yet that is what conservatives do.
Or why they claim to believe to believe in small government, but want a government big enough to protect people from "eating too many cheetos" (marijuana) or to control the voluntary associations of consenting adults (same sex marriage)
And also why they claim to be for free market capitalism while supporting protectionist trade policies and opposing the free movement of labor.
 

crashtech

Lifer
Jan 4, 2013
10,554
2,138
146
As a classical liberal, I would like to know why conservatives are so opposed to the proposition that all persons are created equal, and yet still consider themselves patriotic constitutionalists. As It would seem self-evident that one can't be a 'strict constitutionalist' while opposing equal protection of the laws, yet that is what conservatives do.
I'm interested to know how you came by such a belief, can you source any mainline conservative thinker in this millennium that espouses opposition to equality for all? All should be aware that guilt by association is a logical fallacy.

Or why they claim to believe to believe in small government, but want a government big enough to protect people from "eating too many cheetos" (marijuana) or to control the voluntary associations of consenting adults (same sex marriage)
Yeah, I agree with you there. You reference the authoritarian wing, which sadly finds just enough friends on the left side of the aisle to cause problems for the more libertarian amongst us, notably the continued insane "War on Drugs." Authoritarianism doesn't really have a party affiliation. Each "side" has pet freedoms they want to allow, and chosen demons that must be eradicated.

And also why they claim to be for free market capitalism while supporting protectionist trade policies and opposing the free movement of labor.
Talk to the unions about that first point. As to the second, you might be engaging in a bit of coded language? I don't want to assume, though. If you mean opposition to unlimited immigration, say so.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
I'm interested to know how you came by such a belief, can you source any mainline conservative thinker in this millennium that espouses opposition to equality for all? All should be aware that guilt by association is a logical fallacy.

Yeah, I agree with you there. You reference the authoritarian wing, which sadly finds just enough friends on the left side of the aisle to cause problems for the more libertarian amongst us, notably the continued insane "War on Drugs." Authoritarianism doesn't really have a party affiliation. Each "side" has pet freedoms they want to allow, and chosen demons that must be eradicated.

Talk to the unions about that first point. As to the second, you might be engaging in a bit of coded language? I don't want to assume, though. If you mean opposition to unlimited immigration, say so.

It's not guilt by association, opposition to equality for all is THE defining characteristic of conservatism. What else is it do you suppose that conservatives are conserving if not the status quo wherein persons are not born equal? Liberalism is the philosophy that gave us the 2nd paragraph of the Declaration of Indepence, conservatism was and still is the opposite, the belief that some are born with the "divine right" to rule over the rest of us.
And it's not 'coded language,' immigration is a perfect example of the inequality from birth that conservatism holds most dear. If you're born on one side of an imaginary line, you have different rights than if you're born on the other side of that imaginary line.
I think your confusion, shared by many others these days, lies in the belief that there is a libertarian conservative. There isn't. That's a contradiction in terms. There are conservative liberals though.
 

crashtech

Lifer
Jan 4, 2013
10,554
2,138
146
It's not guilt by association, opposition to equality for all is THE defining characteristic of conservatism. What else is it do you suppose that conservatives are conserving if not the status quo wherein persons are not born equal? Liberalism is the philosophy that gave us the 2nd paragraph of the Declaration of Indepence, conservatism was and still is the opposite, the belief that some are born with the "divine right" to rule over the rest of us.
I appreciate that your assertions come from a belief system that is earnest, yet you don't provide any evidence to support them. I could enumerate many slanderous accusations that conservatives make against the left as a whole that are also unsupported. The tendency is to take the actions and beliefs of the fringe and impute them to entire group. Maybe it's because the fringes are so loud and outrageous that they command our attention and spur our imaginations and fears. It's the means by which we are led into conflict with one another.

And it's not 'coded language,' immigration is a perfect example of the inequality from birth that conservatism holds most dear. If you're born on one side of an imaginary line, you have different rights than if you're born on the other side of that imaginary line.
At least it's clear now what you meant! I've been a bit back and forth on nationalism. Cheap labor is not all that great for wage stability, yet we are called upon to accept those who wish to come. There's a whole world of debate (pardon the pun) on the concept of nation states that transcends party politics. I used to joke that the only way the world would unite is if aliens attacked, which is a little funny to mention given your avatar.

I think your confusion, shared by many others these days, lies in the belief that there is a libertarian conservative. There isn't. That's a contradiction in terms. There are conservative liberals though.
I'm not as afraid to admit confusion as I used to be, that's for sure. Age will do that. But I do get suspicious of those who seem a bit too certain of their own righteousness. It smacks of evangelism. We're all blind to our foibles and ought to learn to trust others to illuminate them for us. I'm right of center, and more libertarian than authoritarian. I'll take exception to your assertion that I can't exist, for now.
 

PlanetJosh

Golden Member
May 6, 2013
1,815
143
106
You (the OP) asked for proof for if the president is racist. So I did research on Steve Bannon who used to be an adviser to him. Apparently the news service he worked for, Breitbart News, has libertarian and populist articles in addition to alt right articles. And Bannon said he is opposed to the racist views of some of the alt right opinions that get printed in Breitbart. And that those views are a small part of Brietbart News

I thought it would be easy to prove Bannon is a racist and he may be but I'm still researching it. I haven't yet proved he's racist imo. I'm an Independent in CA who leans to the left. I certainly hope someone provides proof if Bannon is a racist. Then the president can be correctly accused of racism for hiring him in the first place. Even though he was ousted later.

It's been mentioned in the thread the racism of the president and some of his associates are all around us. Fine but let's get proof for it from things said by his friends or him like in the next paragraph. Can't be that hard. Or maybe some think I'm on your side which I'm not.

I think the President is a racist and the main proof I have is his statement that he planned to ban all or most Muslims from airline flights to the U.S. He scaled it back to less than 10 countries but to make a statement like that shows he's a racist. Maybe it's the proof you asked for. Your argument against it may be he was approaching it only from a security standpoint and not something racial. But I wouldn't buy it and maybe it can be debated in the thread.

As far as the president delaying speaking out against the alt right in the Charlottesville riot: I guess you could interpret the delay as racist? Not sure that's enough. So with some more digging something should come up besides his Muslim ban statement. And that's enough imo anyway. I've looked up things on Bannon, maybe another can try with some other former or current adviser to the president or one of his cabinet leaders.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,028
10,203
136
Sufficient evidence that the President is racist, IMO:

1 - Mexicans: "They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."
2 - Birth certificate: He knowingly waged a disinformation campaign based on ethnicity.
3 - Retweeting "Britain First", a far-right white supremacist organisation and videos that he had no idea of their veracity
4 - Muslim Ban: "a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States, until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on." - advocacy of banning people based on ethnicity, even admitting his position of ignorance.
5 - People in Haiti all have AIDS and all live in huts: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/23/us/politics/trump-immigration.html
6 - Shithole countries: https://www.factcheck.org/2018/01/trump-say-immigration-meeting/
7 - Less immigration from Haiti and more from Norway: https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...1ac729add94_story.html?utm_term=.e0a989b6d8e3
8 - "Very fine people" at Charlottesville white supremacy rally
9 - Supporting Roy Moore even with his pro-slavery comments

Admittedly the original question along these lines was whether the Republican party is racist, but IMO if you have this guy at the helm, it's pretty damning.
 
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sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,493
3,159
136
Ok, Guns it is!

Republican here. Gun Supporter, Gun Owner.

So why is the Left (I am going to generalize, so be aware) so adamant that regulations of firearms is the answer to gun violence? Or that less guns to law abiding citizens directly equals less guns for criminals. Owning a gun and open carry has proven to be as good of a deterrent of gun crime as anything else.

So called liberals are not anti gun. They are anti weapons of war.
Liberals are anti the general public owning the same weapons as was used in Vietnam and used in more recent wars.
That is the only real difference here.
Guns for protection and hunting, OK. Fine. No problem.
Even though I can not see why anyone needs to hunt unless they have no Walmart or grocery store near by, or live like a hermit in the woods. Or are nature freaks living solely off the land.

As a liberal I can see both sides.
I know of a group whose members collect those assault weapons but only use them for weekend gatherings at shooting ranges. They show off their assault weapons like a stamp collector shows off their stamp collection.
They consider their gun collections the same as someone that would collect something like classic cars.
The problem is, thats all find and dandy until one day their pissed off kid takes dads AK-15 or 47 and blows away his class mates.
THEN..... we have a problem.
There is a fine line between a "law abiding citizen" and a crazed mentally ill living on the edge citizen.

Take that shooting at youtube facility by Nasim Aghdam of San Diego.
She shot I think it was 3 people. BUT......
Nasim Aghdam had only a "HAND-GUN" at her disposal.
Imagine if she would have had access to an AR-15?
You can bet it would have been 30+ gunned down at youtube by Nasim Aghdam, not only the three.
There is a huge difference between using and choosing a hand gun vs an assault weapon.

This is all that liberals are asking, and a lot of conservatives as well, that guns are ok but assault weapons like those used by the US military in war MUST BE BANNED.
We simply don't need them in society.
People should not have access to them or the ability to purchase/own them.
I mean really.... Is this so, "liberal"??? Or just good old fashion common sense?
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,833
8,302
136
If I oppose generally accepted right wing doctrine/practices does that make me a liberal?
No, why hang a sign around your neck? That's not to say you should have an allergy to taking positions and agreeing with some people more or less.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,037
4,800
136
It's amazing how so many here have misinformation on firearms and are convinced they know what they're talking about.. These beta males need some help..
It's also amazing that some who've received a Daisy cork gun while growing up have become self professed experts on the matter.
 

Kneedragger

Golden Member
Feb 18, 2013
1,192
45
91
It's also amazing that some who've received a Daisy cork gun while growing up have become self professed experts on the matter.

The info used by you and others is so far off that any person that has been around guns knows just from common sense and experience. Keep getting your gun facts from CNN and you'll look like an idiot..
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,037
4,800
136
The info used by you and others is so far off that any person that has been around guns knows just from common sense and experience. Keep getting your gun facts from CNN and you'll look like an idiot..
Oh geez I guess the U.S. Army failed to teach me right then?
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,282
28,141
136
You (the OP) asked for proof for if the president is racist. So I did research on Steve Bannon who used to be an adviser to him. Apparently the news service he worked for, Breitbart News, has libertarian and populist articles in addition to alt right articles. And Bannon said he is opposed to the racist views of some of the alt right opinions that get printed in Breitbart. And that those views are a small part of Brietbart News

I thought it would be easy to prove Bannon is a racist and he may be but I'm still researching it. I haven't yet proved he's racist imo. I'm an Independent in CA who leans to the left. I certainly hope someone provides proof if Bannon is a racist. Then the president can be correctly accused of racism for hiring him in the first place. Even though he was ousted later.

It's been mentioned in the thread the racism of the president and some of his associates are all around us. Fine but let's get proof for it from things said by his friends or him like in the next paragraph. Can't be that hard. Or maybe some think I'm on your side which I'm not.

I think the President is a racist and the main proof I have is his statement that he planned to ban all or most Muslims from airline flights to the U.S. He scaled it back to less than 10 countries but to make a statement like that shows he's a racist. Maybe it's the proof you asked for. Your argument against it may be he was approaching it only from a security standpoint and not something racial. But I wouldn't buy it and maybe it can be debated in the thread.

As far as the president delaying speaking out against the alt right in the Charlottesville riot: I guess you could interpret the delay as racist? Not sure that's enough. So with some more digging something should come up besides his Muslim ban statement. And that's enough imo anyway. I've looked up things on Bannon, maybe another can try with some other former or current adviser to the president or one of his cabinet leaders.
Breitbart at the time SB was in charge stated they wanted to provide a home for the "alt-right".

SB's ex-wife in sworn deposition told the story of SB making anti-semitic comments about the private school his kids were attending.
 
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Kneedragger

Golden Member
Feb 18, 2013
1,192
45
91
Oh geez I guess the U.S. Army failed to teach me right then?

Well could be you fail yourself? I don't know really or care because you implying you served means you know more about guns. But with that supposed knowledge you fail to correct any of your internet friends.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,037
4,800
136
Well could be you fail yourself? I don't know really or care because you implying you served means you know more about guns. But with that supposed knowledge you fail to correct any of your internet friends.
Guys like you make me ROFL.
 
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