I was definitely going to get a T60, but now i am almost sure i want an XPS M1210

[alimoalem]

i'm looking at getting a dv2000t by hp...probably too "big" for you. i think the macbook would be a more ideal option for you...13" screen, in the 3lb realm (if i remember correctly), and depening on your taste, looks nice. i personally don't want it cause it's too expensive and right on the border of becoming a big-screened portable dvd player. i think 14" is perfect, but that's just me

 

[HomeyFoos]

What I think people are missing is that with a discreet video card, it is more of an extention of your desktop. For years I've had laptops that do not play games or essentially do anything but allow me the ability to write text for a couple of hours on a dimmed screen. I'm certain that is the reason that some people have laptops. For those folks, a T60 sounds perfect. Good battery life, good build, etc. But it is a little pricey and in smaller flavors the end-user loses out on some features (optical drive, discreet graphics, card-readers, usb ports, etc). So I can understand that people who play CS:S or WoW would want to be able to do those things on the go. If you can do that at 12" and are used to lugging around a 15.4" (like my toshiba), then the m1210 sounds like a dream. It can do stuff that my toshiba will never do and it costs $700 less at the time of purchase. If I had these options when I bought that thing, it would be a different purchase altogether.

Regardless, the thing really is 12" and it really weighs 4.7lbs. It's thickness just seems to be a talking point for those who would say that 'portable' means something it does not. It's small. Perhaps not compared to other 12" notebooks in width, but it can do things that those notebooks cannot. Like play DVD's or CS:S at decent frames. Honestly, the battery life is excellent all things considered and you cannot get a 14" from dell with the 7400Go, I don't believe. So this machine sort of takes the place of that 14" dell but at 12" instead of 14. As you said, there would be a trade-off. A little thickness for some features that other machines do not include. And honestly, if you put a 3lb bar-bell into a back-pack and a 4.7lb into the same pack, I doubt you could tell the difference. We are splitting hairs here. Less than an inch of thickness and a lb and a half is not much. And as I've always said, they all just fold up and go in a bag, anyway.

 

[RedWolf]

I'm not saying the 1210 is a bad machine. It's a great size for a 7400 laptop. It's a good price as well (compared to a sony of similar size/gpu). I simply don't think the build quality is there if you're going to keep it. I completely understand the point of a 12" laptop with a 7400. I wish my 700M had a decent gpu. When I replace the 700M I will be getting something that is 5lbs or less and has discrete graphics. If I were to buy one right now, I would very likely go with the HP DV2000T with a7200. It isn't as fast as the 7400 but it sounds like hp's build quality is better and the price is very good.

 

[6000SUX]

Originally posted by: HomeyFoos
What I think people are missing is that with a discreet video card, it is more of an extention of your desktop. For years I've had laptops that do not play games or essentially do anything but allow me the ability to write text for a couple of hours on a dimmed screen. I'm certain that is the reason that some people have laptops. For those folks, a T60 sounds perfect. Good battery life, good build, etc. But it is a little pricey and in smaller flavors the end-user loses out on some features (optical drive, discreet graphics, card-readers, usb ports, etc). So I can understand that people who play CS:S or WoW would want to be able to do those things on the go. If you can do that at 12" and are used to lugging around a 15.4" (like my toshiba), then the m1210 sounds like a dream. It can do stuff that my toshiba will never do and it costs $700 less at the time of purchase. If I had these options when I bought that thing, it would be a different purchase altogether.

Regardless, the thing really is 12" and it really weighs 4.7lbs. It's thickness just seems to be a talking point for those who would say that 'portable' means something it does not. It's small. Perhaps not compared to other 12" notebooks in width, but it can do things that those notebooks cannot. Like play DVD's or CS:S at decent frames. Honestly, the battery life is excellent all things considered and you cannot get a 14" from dell with the 7400Go, I don't believe. So this machine sort of takes the place of that 14" dell but at 12" instead of 14. As you said, there would be a trade-off. A little thickness for some features that other machines do not include. And honestly, if you put a 3lb bar-bell into a back-pack and a 4.7lb into the same pack, I doubt you could tell the difference. We are splitting hairs here. Less than an inch of thickness and a lb and a half is not much. And as I've always said, they all just fold up and go in a bag, anyway.

A "discreet" video card is mostly useful for people that play games. In addition the 7400 is outclassed by many cards, so it's not the best choice for that. The M1210 is not an ultraportable-- it's just a thick machine with a small screen. You've also managed to confuse the T60 with the X series. I don't know how you got the idea that a workstation-class machine like the T60 is good for typing text only-- it's quite hilarious. You can also get it with a MR X1600 which blows the card in the M1210 away. Looks like you just don't know what you're doing, doesn't it?

 

[fbrdphreak]

Originally posted by: 6000SUX

Originally posted by: HomeyFoos
What I think people are missing is that with a discreet video card, it is more of an extention of your desktop. For years I've had laptops that do not play games or essentially do anything but allow me the ability to write text for a couple of hours on a dimmed screen. I'm certain that is the reason that some people have laptops. For those folks, a T60 sounds perfect. Good battery life, good build, etc. But it is a little pricey and in smaller flavors the end-user loses out on some features (optical drive, discreet graphics, card-readers, usb ports, etc). So I can understand that people who play CS:S or WoW would want to be able to do those things on the go. If you can do that at 12" and are used to lugging around a 15.4" (like my toshiba), then the m1210 sounds like a dream. It can do stuff that my toshiba will never do and it costs $700 less at the time of purchase. If I had these options when I bought that thing, it would be a different purchase altogether.

Regardless, the thing really is 12" and it really weighs 4.7lbs. It's thickness just seems to be a talking point for those who would say that 'portable' means something it does not. It's small. Perhaps not compared to other 12" notebooks in width, but it can do things that those notebooks cannot. Like play DVD's or CS:S at decent frames. Honestly, the battery life is excellent all things considered and you cannot get a 14" from dell with the 7400Go, I don't believe. So this machine sort of takes the place of that 14" dell but at 12" instead of 14. As you said, there would be a trade-off. A little thickness for some features that other machines do not include. And honestly, if you put a 3lb bar-bell into a back-pack and a 4.7lb into the same pack, I doubt you could tell the difference. We are splitting hairs here. Less than an inch of thickness and a lb and a half is not much. And as I've always said, they all just fold up and go in a bag, anyway.

A "discreet" video card is mostly useful for people that play games. In addition the 7400 is outclassed by many cards, so it's not the best choice for that. The M1210 is not an ultraportable-- it's just a thick machine with a small screen. You've also managed to confuse the T60 with the X series. I don't know how you got the idea that a workstation-class machine like the T60 is good for typing text only-- it's quite hilarious. You can also get it with a MR X1600 which blows the card in the M1210 away. Looks like you just don't know what you're doing, doesn't it?

Clarification: the T60 comes with the ATI MR X1300, MR X1400, Mobility FireGL V5200 (MR X1600 equivalent). The V5200 is only available on T60p workstation-class models, i.e. expensive!

 

[6000SUX]

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak

Originally posted by: 6000SUX

Originally posted by: HomeyFoos
What I think people are missing is that with a discreet video card, it is more of an extention of your desktop. For years I've had laptops that do not play games or essentially do anything but allow me the ability to write text for a couple of hours on a dimmed screen. I'm certain that is the reason that some people have laptops. For those folks, a T60 sounds perfect. Good battery life, good build, etc. But it is a little pricey and in smaller flavors the end-user loses out on some features (optical drive, discreet graphics, card-readers, usb ports, etc). So I can understand that people who play CS:S or WoW would want to be able to do those things on the go. If you can do that at 12" and are used to lugging around a 15.4" (like my toshiba), then the m1210 sounds like a dream. It can do stuff that my toshiba will never do and it costs $700 less at the time of purchase. If I had these options when I bought that thing, it would be a different purchase altogether.

Regardless, the thing really is 12" and it really weighs 4.7lbs. It's thickness just seems to be a talking point for those who would say that 'portable' means something it does not. It's small. Perhaps not compared to other 12" notebooks in width, but it can do things that those notebooks cannot. Like play DVD's or CS:S at decent frames. Honestly, the battery life is excellent all things considered and you cannot get a 14" from dell with the 7400Go, I don't believe. So this machine sort of takes the place of that 14" dell but at 12" instead of 14. As you said, there would be a trade-off. A little thickness for some features that other machines do not include. And honestly, if you put a 3lb bar-bell into a back-pack and a 4.7lb into the same pack, I doubt you could tell the difference. We are splitting hairs here. Less than an inch of thickness and a lb and a half is not much. And as I've always said, they all just fold up and go in a bag, anyway.

A "discreet" video card is mostly useful for people that play games. In addition the 7400 is outclassed by many cards, so it's not the best choice for that. The M1210 is not an ultraportable-- it's just a thick machine with a small screen. You've also managed to confuse the T60 with the X series. I don't know how you got the idea that a workstation-class machine like the T60 is good for typing text only-- it's quite hilarious. You can also get it with a MR X1600 which blows the card in the M1210 away. Looks like you just don't know what you're doing, doesn't it?

Clarification: the T60 comes with the ATI MR X1300, MR X1400, Mobility FireGL V5200 (MR X1600 equivalent). The V5200 is only available on T60p workstation-class models, i.e. expensive!

Yep, but I've seen them dip as low as $1800 or thereabouts. My point is just that gamer types and CAD users can get the MR X1600 if they want it (the T60p is a T60). As you've pointed out before, it's the exact same hardware with a different driver.

 

[andrewbabcock]

I realized that the m1210 was not worth the thickness and went with the amazing Thinkpad X60s. Very impressive machine. The keyboard is so responsive with so much give and it won't break under my large hands like my dell would have. Dell's have weak keyboards on their home systems but the lattitudes have good build quality in my opinion. No creaks, or anything. Designed amazingly well. The warmth on the right side isn't noticable inless you put your hand on it and apply pressure. The bottom can get a little warm when used on laps but thats a very common problem. Overall, the noise/heat are impressively low for a lappy this size. Strongly reccomended...

 

[6000SUX]

Originally posted by: andrewbabcock
I realized that the m1210 was not worth the thickness and went with the amazing Thinkpad X60s. Very impressive machine. The keyboard is so responsive with so much give and it won't break under my large hands like my dell would have. Dell's have weak keyboards on their home systems but the lattitudes have good build quality in my opinion. No creaks, or anything. Designed amazingly well. The warmth on the right side isn't noticable inless you put your hand on it and apply pressure. The bottom can get a little warm when used on laps but thats a very common problem. Overall, the noise/heat are impressively low for a lappy this size. Strongly reccomended...

Wow, congrats! I always used to think that a 12" machine would be too small for me, until I got used to typing on my wife's 12" Inspiron. That X60s is one of my dream machines. I almost picked an X series instead of my T60.

 

[negatiiv]

Would you care to explain what a WiFi sniffer is supposed to be? And 5-in-1 card readers are not rare on 12" notebooks

From: http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/s...s/latd620/en/UG/wireless.htm#wp1138019

"The wireless switch on your Dell computer uses the Dell Wi-Fi Catcher? Network Locator to scan specifically for Wi-Fi wireless local area networks (LAN) in your vicinity."

"To scan for Wi-Fi wireless LAN, slide and hold the switch in the "momentary" position for a few seconds. The Wi-Fi Catcher Network Locator functions regardless of whether your computer is turned on or off, in hibernate mode, or in standby mode, as long as the switch is configured through QuickSet or the BIOS (system setup program) to control Wi-Fi network connections."

 

[fbrdphreak]

Originally posted by: negatiiv

Would you care to explain what a WiFi sniffer is supposed to be? And 5-in-1 card readers are not rare on 12" notebooks

From: http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/s...s/latd620/en/UG/wireless.htm#wp1138019

"The wireless switch on your Dell computer uses the Dell Wi-Fi Catcher? Network Locator to scan specifically for Wi-Fi wireless local area networks (LAN) in your vicinity."

"To scan for Wi-Fi wireless LAN, slide and hold the switch in the "momentary" position for a few seconds. The Wi-Fi Catcher Network Locator functions regardless of whether your computer is turned on or off, in hibernate mode, or in standby mode, as long as the switch is configured through QuickSet or the BIOS (system setup program) to control Wi-Fi network connections."

Neat feature!

 

[andrewbabcock]

The m1210 is cool but it also has its flaws of course...

 

[HomeyFoos]

A "discreet" video card is mostly useful for people that play games.

That's exactly what I'm saying. It's more of an extention of your desktop. You can do more with it than a typical 12" laptop - or many 14, 15, or 17" for that matter. You obviously missed the point of what I was saying. My point is not to confuse the IBM ThinkPad with the T60. It was only to illustrate that at that size, the m1210 has more gaming in it than anyone else. That makes it more like a desktop than any of the others. Get it? Extention of the desktop? Is that a difficult concept?

In addition, I wanted to point out that a business-class laptop, something both Lenovo and IBM specialize in, will usually be small and form-fitting, thus will not have some of the extras that the m1210 has at that size. That would also include a 'discreet' video card such as the 7400, which, by the way, I challenge you to find another 12" laptop that has one. Is it the best? No, but it would apparently be the best card you will find in a sub-14" machine.

I think it's great that Lenovo will offer the x1600 equivilent. However, you are limited to 14 and 15" screens. There is no mention of a 12" with a similar card. So I guess your whole flame attempt was just a little misplaced.

Sorry that didn't work out for you.

Looks like you just don't know what you're doing, doesn't it?

Huh? What did I say that was inaccurate? The T60 is not a reknown entertainment system. That would be why it offers the FireGL V5200 INSTEAD of the MR X1600. Do you get that? If it were for home/entertainment use, it would sport the applicable card. But it's considered a 'business/workstation machine'. At 12", the Lenovo's don't even come with an optical drive so there are little to no entertainment features included. What was your purpose, again?

 

[6000SUX]

Originally posted by: HomeyFoos

A "discreet" video card is mostly useful for people that play games.

That's exactly what I'm saying. It's more of an extention of your desktop. You can do more with it than a typical 12" laptop - or many 14, 15, or 17" for that matter. You obviously missed the point of what I was saying. My point is not to confuse the IBM ThinkPad with the T60. It was only to illustrate that at that size, the m1210 has more gaming in it than anyone else. That makes it more like a desktop than any of the others. Get it? Extention of the desktop? Is that a difficult concept?

Like I said, the T60 (which is a Thinkpad) comes with a MR X1600 if you want it, a bigger screen, and a bigger and better keyboard. In addition the great (nay, vast) majority of people with desktops do NOT use them for gaming. Hence a machine does not need to game to be a great extension of one's desktop. You are erroneous in attributing gaming potential to all desktops.

Originally posted by: HomeyFoos
I think it's great that Lenovo will offer the x1600 equivilent. However, you are limited to 14 and 15" screens. There is no mention of a 12" with a similar card. So I guess your whole flame attempt was just a little misplaced.

Sorry that didn't work out for you.

There's no flame. You actually don't know what you're talking about.

Looks like you just don't know what you're doing, doesn't it?

Originally posted by: HomeyFoos
Huh? What did I say that was inaccurate? The T60 is not a reknown entertainment system. That would be why it offers the FireGL V5200 INSTEAD of the MR X1600. Do you get that? If it were for home/entertainment use, it would sport the applicable card. But it's considered a 'business/workstation machine'. At 12", the Lenovo's don't even come with an optical drive so there are little to no entertainment features included. What was your purpose, again?

The FireGL V5200 is a MR X1600. It's the exact same part. The driver installed on the machine is the only difference. This is just one of the many ways in which you continue to demonstrate your ignorance, and lack of command of the English language.

In addition, the X60 does come with an optical drive, unless you choose a barebones package without one. On top of that, the assumption that little to no entertainment features are present on a machine, in the absence of an optical drive, is one more flawed assumption.

We've seen you get your ass handed to you on a platter here time and again. Some things never change.

 

[RedWolf]

I challenge you to find another 12" laptop that has one. Is it the best? No, but it would apparently be the best card you will find in a sub-14" machine.

Sony SZ Series

Comes with a 7400 and a GMA 950. 13.3".

 

[HomeyFoos]

I'm not going to argue with you any longer because you are illogical. I don't care what your opinion of me is, you flip flop the conversation around to achieve who-knows-what. I said nothing that was inaccurate. The T-60 is a business class machine. You can choose to deny that if you like, that is up to you. The m1210 is an enterainment machine. You can choose to deny that if you like, that is up to you.

As for Red Wolf, that's a great find and illustrates my point. For now, they just aren't putting larger cards than the 7400 in sub-14" machines. Certainly not in 12" machines (besides the m1210).

Could someone please tell me what I said that was so incorrect and laden with error or is this guy just some teenager out to show the world how smart he is?

 

[6000SUX]

Originally posted by: HomeyFoos
I'm not going to argue with you any longer because you are illogical. I don't care what your opinion of me is, you flip flop the conversation around to achieve who-knows-what. I said nothing that was inaccurate. The T-60 is a business class machine. You can choose to deny that if you like, that is up to you. The m1210 is an enterainment machine. You can choose to deny that if you like, that is up to you.

As for Red Wolf, that's a great find and illustrates my point. For now, they just aren't putting larger cards than the 7400 in sub-14" machines. Certainly not in 12" machines (besides the m1210).

Could someone please tell me what I said that was so incorrect and laden with error or is this guy just some teenager out to show the world how smart he is?

Go back and read the thread. Read all your mistakes and the answers I made. They're as valid now as they were when I wrote them. Have a great day!

 

[RedWolf]

I don't know of another sub 14" machine that has a 7400 or better in it. Personally, I would much rather have something with a decent video card in a small form factor but they are pretty expensive. I think that the HP DV2000T is the best value right now in a ~5 pound notebook with a dedicated video card. For about $900 you can get a GF 7200, 60 gb drive, 1 gig of ram, TFT screen, dvd burner, and an integrated camera. Even in the 14" form factor it is rare to find a dedicated video card, especially if you want to spend under $1000.

 

[HomeyFoos]

Agreed, I scoured the earth (seemingly - the net anyway) looking for good gpu's and threw brand-name and size out the window. What I found was pretty disappointing. For years it seemed you were lucky to find a machine that would do more than allow you to surf/type/mouse. They soon improved that but the features were not much better. You now had a DVD player/CD burner and that brought video to the table. But still, the vast majority of people using laptops at this time were business people. For these reasons, machines like the Thinkpad (IBM/Lenovo) earned their place in the market. The likes of Sony, Toshiba, Dell, etc. got behind this push because the lion's share of users were businesss people/students. There are always exceptions, however. Companies have been making 'entertainment' versions of their business laptops but they have historically been very expensive because the market was not developed for such production.

Things are different now. There are places for people to take their laptops besides a business meeting. It has now become 'cool' to compute away from home. They make them with the purpose of being seen. It seems to me this is a growing thing. Where machines used to be mostly black with a 'nothing to see here' exterior, they are now different colors with accessories that light up and blink. This is not a NEW thing, this is just the end result of the evolution we've been witnessing. As such, there is this whole new group of 'power' users who are looking to take their more powerful desktop computer with them. People like this are marveled by a machine like the m1210 or the Sony that you found. It will play/burn dvd's, type/surf/mouse, connect to several USB devices (some of which light up and blink as well), accept digital memory from a camera/mp3 player, dock w/ a bluetooth cellphone/headset, AND play video-games made up to 2006 at acceptable fps. All at 12". So what if it weighs a pound-and-a-half more than the very-well-built Lenovo. The lenovo at 12" requires an external drive to play dvd's and I do not believe it has a discreet card. So for these folks (and there are now many many of them like the OP), a T60 is a beautiful machine that does not say enough about them. The m1210 (or something like it, regardless of the Manufacturer) does the trick. It's smaller than the T60, it's cheaper than the T60, and it performs similarly. As a matter of fact, you are paying 30% more for the Lenovo with the superior GPU. I would assume 15-20% more for the same GPU and guts, but I could certainly be wrong.

I am not saying one is better than the other in any way. I understand how reknown the T60 is and how much their owners love them. No arguement here, whatsoever. But there is this whole group of users who are not as pragmatic as T60 users and they want flash. And if they can get flash at 30% less and choose almost every part that goes in it, it makes alot of senes. They don't care that the size/weight ratio is out of whack. They don't care their laptop, closed, is taller than most in it's class.

Anyway, it seems easy to understand but some seem to struggle with any opinion besides their own.

 

[Brainonska511]

Originally posted by: RedWolf
I don't know of another sub 14" machine that has a 7400 or better in it.

The W7J has a 7400Go in it and it is only a 13.3" wide-screen display.

 

[fbrdphreak]

Fellas, the fact of the matter is that any business model 12" (Thinkpad X60, *sort of* Sony SZ, Latitude D420, HP, etc etc) is going to be remarkably different from the M1210 in its design & intended purpose. For the average consumer user, both have their pro's & con's. However for the average business user, the actual business models are going to overall be more suited to their needs. Every case is different and some may prefer the extra bells & whistles of the M1210, some may not.

Either way, debating the semantics of which machine is better is overall pointless and will only lead to further flaming and thread crapping. Let's just call it what it is (two machines designed for entirely different purposes) and move on