I was thinking about incest and gay people and brain-conditioning earlier

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: LcarsSystem
They have evidence showing, and there is no point in life where you simply "choose" to be gay. On the 60 Minutes story they had video of the various subjects when they were just 5 or 6yrs old, judging by their mannerisms alone they could tell if they were going to grow up gay or straight and in 100% of the cases they showed, they were correct. They also have other documented studies that showed strong evidence of this aswell, among other things I don't remember. It is genetic, its about time the majority of people accept that, allow gay rights, and move on. It makes me ashamed of America to have me think that the majority of American's haven't learned from the Civil Rights Movement in the 60's.

Some people have really fiery tempers, too, and have them from a young age. You can tell just from watching them at 5 to 6 years old if they'll grow up to be aggressive. However, some of them learn to control their temper.

I'm just saying that it's not genetics or society alone, but the interplay between the two, that determines a lot of personality traits. If we were truly slaves to genetics, it would be foolish to imprison criminals, since they couldn't help their behavior.

Originally posted by: Jeff7
Homosexuality is observed in some animals.
My thoughts on it - it's a birth defect. A normal animal or human is normally attracted to the opposite sex, just as a normal human is supposed to have two arms and two legs. Something just goes awry in the development process in the womb, and the fetus' brain isn't programmed according to the sex of the body.
Left to the forces of nature, birth defects generally don't get passed on - homosexual animals would be attracted to their own sex, and thus would not pass on their genes. Natural selection at work.

Except that if you consider the selection pressure against true homosexuality, it would have been gone a long time ago if it was 100% genetic. We carry a number of benign "defects", and a few not-so-benign, but there will be a low incidence of defects that SERIOUSLY inhibit reproductive success in a healthy population.

If there was a genetic mutation that would make .5-5% of the population (depending on whose figures you believe) get testicular cancer prior to the reproductive years, do you think it would last very many generations?

How long do you think the sickle cell gene would last? There may be tremendous reproductive advantages to a female chimp to have a gay brother and or sister, as well as advantages to the whole tribe. Evolution is not about individuals but genes.

 

[kogase]

Originally posted by: jagec
Except that if you consider the selection pressure against true homosexuality, it would have been gone a long time ago if it was 100% genetic. We carry a number of benign "defects", and a few not-so-benign, but there will be a low incidence of defects that SERIOUSLY inhibit reproductive success in a healthy population.

Not sure what you're getting at. Are you trying to prove that it's a choice? How about it being genetic but not hereditary? Decided at conception or during fetal development through some unknown factors or conditions? Is that not still genetic?

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: LcarsSystem
They have evidence showing, and there is no point in life where you simply "choose" to be gay. On the 60 Minutes story they had video of the various subjects when they were just 5 or 6yrs old, judging by their mannerisms alone they could tell if they were going to grow up gay or straight and in 100% of the cases they showed, they were correct. They also have other documented studies that showed strong evidence of this aswell, among other things I don't remember. It is genetic, its about time the majority of people accept that, allow gay rights, and move on. It makes me ashamed of America to have me think that the majority of American's haven't learned from the Civil Rights Movement in the 60's.

Yeah, this whole "gay is a choice" thing strikes me as ludicrous.
Ask a homophobe if he could just "decide" to be gay one day. After getting punched in the face, you'd probably hear something to the effect of "Hell no!"

Homosexuality is observed in some animals.
My thoughts on it - it's a birth defect. A normal animal or human is normally attracted to the opposite sex, just as a normal human is supposed to have two arms and two legs. Something just goes awry in the development process in the womb, and the fetus' brain isn't programmed according to the sex of the body.
Left to the forces of nature, birth defects generally don't get passed on - homosexual animals would be attracted to their own sex, and thus would not pass on their genes. Natural selection at work.
Doesn't make homosexuality evil or anything - people are that way, and it's just the way it is. OMG, a guy attracted to other guys. It's not a big deal unless you're bored and you feel like making it a big deal.


Concerning the incest thing - look at royal families throughout history, and how often they'd marry their own family.
I'm of the opinion that, left to themselves, humans are basically like any other animal. Like in zoos, you take a male and female and put them together, chances are good that you're going to get babies out of the deal. Same with humans. Without societal "restrictions" on incest, it wouldn't matter.

I suspect that most hardcore homophobes probably have some feelings towards the same sex which is why they hate gays. They are likely confused about their own sexuality and probably hate themselves also.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: LcarsSystem
They have evidence showing, and there is no point in life where you simply "choose" to be gay. On the 60 Minutes story they had video of the various subjects when they were just 5 or 6yrs old, judging by their mannerisms alone they could tell if they were going to grow up gay or straight and in 100% of the cases they showed, they were correct. They also have other documented studies that showed strong evidence of this aswell, among other things I don't remember. It is genetic, its about time the majority of people accept that, allow gay rights, and move on. It makes me ashamed of America to have me think that the majority of American's haven't learned from the Civil Rights Movement in the 60's.

Yeah, this whole "gay is a choice" thing strikes me as ludicrous.
Ask a homophobe if he could just "decide" to be gay one day. After getting punched in the face, you'd probably hear something to the effect of "Hell no!"

Homosexuality is observed in some animals.
My thoughts on it - it's a birth defect. A normal animal or human is normally attracted to the opposite sex, just as a normal human is supposed to have two arms and two legs. Something just goes awry in the development process in the womb, and the fetus' brain isn't programmed according to the sex of the body.
Left to the forces of nature, birth defects generally don't get passed on - homosexual animals would be attracted to their own sex, and thus would not pass on their genes. Natural selection at work.
Doesn't make homosexuality evil or anything - people are that way, and it's just the way it is. OMG, a guy attracted to other guys. It's not a big deal unless you're bored and you feel like making it a big deal.


Concerning the incest thing - look at royal families throughout history, and how often they'd marry their own family.
I'm of the opinion that, left to themselves, humans are basically like any other animal. Like in zoos, you take a male and female and put them together, chances are good that you're going to get babies out of the deal. Same with humans. Without societal "restrictions" on incest, it wouldn't matter.

I suspect that most hardcore homophobes probably have some feelings towards the same sex which is why they hate gays. They are likely confused about their own sexuality and probably hate themselves also.

Everybody hates themselves, just in different ways. If the ways are different enough from your own way, you can sometimes see it, see it, that is in the other. We never see our own self hate because we would rather die. That death wish is our world and what we are making of it.

 

[lyssword]

so you are saying if you had a hot sister and she was naked u wouldn't get a boner? yeah right... the only reason they say "eww" and stuff like that is because of moral reason, because consciense/culture tells you it is wrong. And of course we all know movies predict everything even traveling back to the future

 

[dawnbug]

Originally posted by: Powermoloch
Wasn't there a movie with those two blond locked up bro and sis in a house. Later on having to boink around and bearing a child?

Flowers in the Attic. They never had kids together, though. Well, at least in the book-- I'm not sure what they changed in the movie.

 

[Vinny N]

Originally posted by: jagec
exactly...rare. Homosexuality is entirely too common to be purely genetic. Natural selection doesn't completely get rid of genetic defects, but it reduces them to very small percentages of total births, the degree of reduction depending on their effect on reproductive success.

Actually I think the answer to why it's so common is simple. It's probably genetic for some, but it's probably a lifestyle choice*** for some as well. Can we really tell the difference? Maybe some day. But either way, they're going to have some rights whether it's because of genetics (no different than if they were born with a different eye color) or because of choice (no different than someone decides to be a roman catholic or scientologist).

I do kind of worry where this line of thought goes though (regarding incest vs sexual orientation), that is, someone might say we regulate by law the ban of incest even though a person could theoretically choose to have such a relationship so why not do the same and ban same-sex relationships as well.


***Yeah you can rehash all you want how homosexuality is persecuted, shunned, etc. But similar treatment of other behavior/choices hasn't discouraged people either. So I wouldn't say it's unlikely that it is a lifestyle choice for some.

 

[Legend]

Prenatal hormones.

 

[Legend]

Originally posted by: LcarsSystem

Originally posted by: joedrake
k:
Let's say that you were born and your mom put you up for adoption...
a coupleish years later, your mom has another child (same father).. however this time, she has a baby of the opposite sex and 'it' was adopted out (or raised, it doesn't matter) and both of you grew up separately and didn't know each other

fast-forward 20 or so years....
you two see each other in a bar or w/e.. you could easily find the other one attractive/start up a relationship

however, you would never find your ACTUAL sister/brother attractive if you've grown up with them
Was your brain like conditioned to not find your sibling attractive, just because that's wrong or whatnot?

now the gay people:
in a similar sense, if a 'normal' person chooses they want to be gay, couldn't they condition themselves to find the same sex attractive?
people might say that being gay, however, is 'part of your genetics' because gay people only get aroused physically around people of their same sex whom they find attractive.. well
people are the same way with their family members...
most men will find a naked lady attractive and get aroused, however, if they saw their sister/sibiling naked they would just be disgusted/the least bit aroused

I guess, technically, incest would ruin this, but that is such a small portion and those people probably grow up in an environment where it is more acceptable to incesticize and might not be conditioned
any thoughts?

/thinking out loud

They proved being gay is genetic on 60 Minutes. Can't find link though =/

I also think the reason a person might not find a brother/sister attractive is because they know eachother so well or have been around them too long. However if this doesn't occur and that person has no idea who their brother or sister is much less that they even have one is interesting to say the least. I guess everyone would be none-the-wiser unless you had a DNA test done.

It's not directly genetic. They gave strong evidence that prenatal hormones are the cause.

Scientists have stopped testosterone in developing male mice, and they act "gay".

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: goku
Porn is different, how about an uber hot woman in real life, both of you face to face everything revealed? (or maybe just her)

How about we put you in a room with an uber hot guy in real life, both face to face. You'll pop a boner right? Oh wait.. you won't? How come? No physical attraction? Starting to see the flaw in your logic?

 

[JDrake]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: goku
Porn is different, how about an uber hot woman in real life, both of you face to face everything revealed? (or maybe just her)

How about we put you in a room with an uber hot guy in real life, both face to face. You'll pop a boner right? Oh wait.. you won't? How come? No physical attraction? Starting to see the flaw in your logic?

I think his logic was that any man will 'pop a boner' to a really attractive woman, whether they or straight or not.

If goku were a women and women could pop boners, then I guess he would pop one if there was a really hot man, lesbian or not.

 

[aidanjm]

You know what is really funny... straight people speculating on whether or not gay people choose to be gay. Right, like you people would have SO much insight into something like that.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: LcarsSystem
So Jagec, are you for or against gay rights?

For. But I don't believe they should have to rely on the genetics argument, which is misleading.

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
How long do you think the sickle cell gene would last? There may be tremendous reproductive advantages to a female chimp to have a gay brother and or sister, as well as advantages to the whole tribe. Evolution is not about individuals but genes.

Since the sickle cell gene confers an advantage in malaria resistance, it has a reason for sticking around.

 

[JDrake]

Originally posted by: aidanjm
You know what is really funny... straight people speculating on whether or not gay people choose to be gay. Right, like you people would have SO much insight into something like that.

I think the point of 'their' arguments is that there is NO difference, it's just a choice. So it'd be like a person whose favorite color is blue arguing that purple is the worst, even though you may have chose it as your favorite.

 

[kogase]

Originally posted by: joedrake

Originally posted by: aidanjm
You know what is really funny... straight people speculating on whether or not gay people choose to be gay. Right, like you people would have SO much insight into something like that.

I think the point of 'their' arguments is that there is NO difference, it's just a choice. So it'd be like a person whose favorite color is blue arguing that purple is the worst, even though you may have chose it as your favorite.

Horrible analogy. There's no need for one, either, this is pretty much a situation of straight men arguing about why gay men are gay.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: aidanjm
You know what is really funny... straight people speculating on whether or not gay people choose to be gay. Right, like you people would have SO much insight into something like that.

Considering how bad your average human is at self-analysis, I doubt you have much insight either.

 

[JDrake]

Originally posted by: kogase

Originally posted by: joedrake

Originally posted by: aidanjm
You know what is really funny... straight people speculating on whether or not gay people choose to be gay. Right, like you people would have SO much insight into something like that.

I think the point of 'their' arguments is that there is NO difference, it's just a choice. So it'd be like a person whose favorite color is blue arguing that purple is the worst, even though you may have chose it as your favorite.

Horrible analogy. There's no need for one, either, this is pretty much a situation of straight men arguing about why gay men are gay.

Well if a gay man were pro-"gay is a choice" and made the realization, then they would convert back to being "normal"
so how the heck are you going to have a "gay" person argue that ?? I'd be like a murderer arguing that murder is wrong??
They have converted people from gay -> straight, in fact, I know someone who did this and they have 2 kids and have been married to the opposite sex for 14+ years, happily

 

[kogase]

Originally posted by: joedrake

Originally posted by: kogase

Originally posted by: joedrake

Originally posted by: aidanjm
You know what is really funny... straight people speculating on whether or not gay people choose to be gay. Right, like you people would have SO much insight into something like that.

I think the point of 'their' arguments is that there is NO difference, it's just a choice. So it'd be like a person whose favorite color is blue arguing that purple is the worst, even though you may have chose it as your favorite.

Horrible analogy. There's no need for one, either, this is pretty much a situation of straight men arguing about why gay men are gay.

Well if a gay man were pro-"gay is a choice" and made the realization, then they would convert back to being "normal"
so how the heck are you going to have a "gay" person argue that ?? I'd be like a murderer arguing that murder is wrong??

Through great effort and vast mental strain I believe I have succeeded in understanding these string of almost nonsensical sentences, only to discover that they are indeed nonsense, and therefore nonsensical. Therefore we bring this full circle, Amen.

Why would gay people who believed it was a choice "convert" back to being straight? If they know it's a choice and remain gay, they must like it.

They have converted people from gay -> straight, in fact, I know someone who did this and they have 2 kids and have been married to the opposite sex for 14+ years, happily

Yeah, sure they have. *pats joedrake on the head* Who's a smart boy? Who's a smart boy? Who's a wittle smoogy smooches woogy woofums? Oooooo, oooooo, ooooo, yes you are! You are!

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: LcarsSystem
So Jagec, are you for or against gay rights?

For. But I don't believe they should have to rely on the genetics argument, which is misleading.

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
How long do you think the sickle cell gene would last? There may be tremendous reproductive advantages to a female chimp to have a gay brother and or sister, as well as advantages to the whole tribe. Evolution is not about individuals but genes.

Since the sickle cell gene confers an advantage in malaria resistance, it has a reason for sticking around.

Well duh! That was my point. Homosexuality confers survival advantages too.

 

[Baked]

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
I actually like gay people. I don't like fairy's

I always thought they're the same. Does Gay People ? Fairies.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: LcarsSystem
So Jagec, are you for or against gay rights?

For. But I don't believe they should have to rely on the genetics argument, which is misleading.

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
How long do you think the sickle cell gene would last? There may be tremendous reproductive advantages to a female chimp to have a gay brother and or sister, as well as advantages to the whole tribe. Evolution is not about individuals but genes.

Since the sickle cell gene confers an advantage in malaria resistance, it has a reason for sticking around.

Well duh! That was my point. Homosexuality confers survival advantages too.

yup, we go hunting. leave homo with the women
u trust a straight man?

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: joedrake

Originally posted by: skace
How about we put you in a room with an uber hot guy in real life, both face to face. You'll pop a boner right? Oh wait.. you won't? How come? No physical attraction? Starting to see the flaw in your logic?

I think his logic was that any man will 'pop a boner' to a really attractive woman, whether they or straight or not.

If goku were a women and women could pop boners, then I guess he would pop one if there was a really hot man, lesbian or not.

And you still don't fvcking get it. A gay man popping a boner at a woman is the same as a straight man popping a boner at another man. The problem with your entire argument is that you ASSUME a gay guy would pop a boner simply because you find a girl hot and don't really believe they are gay. You think it's a choice that they made to get attention and other retarded reasons. You think that if they find a woman hot enough, they won't be able to resist their "normal, straight" urges.