I wonder about religion often...

[Arkitech]

and whether or not it actually makes a difference if we believe in God or not. I've always believed that logic and clear thinking about a certain problem or situation could often lead to an answer or solution. But for some reason that method does'nt always work well with religion.

For example we know that parents who love their children will do anything to protect them from harm and try to raise them as responsible adults. But when you apply that example to God things start to fall apart. Since every human on Earth is considered a child of God, logically it should mean that we all have the best protection from harm that is possible. But of course thats not the case because people get raped, killed, mutilated and hurt every single minute of the day. And outside of a few questionable books (the quaran, bible, etc.) we have no direct instruction from God. In fact there is no conclusive proof or evidence that God has had a hand in human affairs.

Another thing that does'nt make sense when viewed in a logical manner is the concept of heaven, hell and inherited sin. Why would a God go through the process of producing a planet with infinite variations in life forms and other amazing creations only to use it as means to test people before they went to heaven or hell. Of course as a JW I was taught that everyone did'nt go to heaven and no-one went to a fiery hell. But there still is the issue of why would a intelligent God who supposedly has an infinite amount of love and compassion allow 2 people to screw up the lives of billions and billions of people. Was it to prove a point? Is it because God does'nt care?

I don't even watch the news anymore because I get tired of hearing about people dying everyday. And it does'nt help to be reminded constantly that my own life is so fragile that it would'nt take much for it to be brought to an end. Of course knowing that our lives are not guaranteed and could end at any given moment you would think every last person on Earth would be partying like its 1999. But instead most people like myself are stuck at jobs that they hate and forced to do things they dislike just to make ends meet and thats if you're lucky. On the flipside of the coin you have people in 3rd world countries who can't even get clean water and making it past puberty is a medical miracle.

I don't have a point to any of this, I'm just tired of the world I live in, but I also love living to much to ever even contemplate ending my life prematurely.

 

[StageLeft]

I do too and I am fairly certain that without God life is an empty meaninglessness. At the samet ime that belief doesn't help me believe in God, so it's rather a predicament I'm in.

 

[Arkitech]

I believe in God as well but I'm starting to slowly come to the conclusion that either (A) God simply does not care enough about mankind to intervene in his affairs or (B) perhaps a being that is truly immortal lacks the ability to empathize with creatures who have a finite lifespan. Neither conclusion is really appealing.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Arkitech
I believe in God as well but I'm starting to slowly come to the conclusion that either (A) God simply does not care enough about mankind to intervene in his affairs or (B) perhaps a being that is truly immortal lacks the ability to empathize with creatures who have a finite lifespan. Neither conclusion is really appealing.

Well I don't know about B) Afterall humans are quite capable of feeling loss of pets that have lifespans that pale in comparison to ours, and I think when a kid mourns over the loss of a fish they are not keeping in mind their own mortality, but simply in pain over the loss of something.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I do too and I am fairly certain that without God life is an empty meaninglessness. At the samet ime that belief doesn't help me believe in God, so it's rather a predicament I'm in.

I'm kind of in the same place. The more I delve into things, the more I begin to realise that I'm not very likely to get anything resembling conclusive proof either way. Proving non-existance is impossible, of course. And the evidence for existance is circumstantial at best. I too have a desire to understand the way that this supposed God works, it's just my nature to always want to understand how something functions. I have a lot of trouble with the idea that humans cannot grasp His reasons.

ZV

 

[Mr N8]

I struggle with these things, too. I grew up in a "church" family, but have only in the past few years started drawing my own conclusions and questioning the meaning of what I was raised to believe.

I think you logic of comparing the entire human race to children is wrong. What I think is the teaching in the Bible is that humans only become the children of God when they believe that he is God and accept that Jesus was his son and also God. Am I wrong?

Still, bad things happen to people all the time. I struggle with the normal answer that God has a plan, though it may not be obvious to us. I haven't got the answer, but I believe like Skoorb does, that life becomes meaningless and unfulfilling without God in it.

 

[Nitemare]

I believe in a higher power and that most die hard religious types are hypocrites.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Arkitech
I believe in God as well but I'm starting to slowly come to the conclusion that either (A) God simply does not care enough about mankind to intervene in his affairs or (B) perhaps a being that is truly immortal lacks the ability to empathize with creatures who have a finite lifespan. Neither conclusion is really appealing.

Regarding A, sometimes, for reasons that the child doesn't understand, a parent will knowingly allow the child to screw up because in the long run it's better for the child. I theorise that God is doing the same thing except in a game with much, much higher stakes.

I mean, if everything came about perfectly, we'd all just be a bunch of spoiled brats.

ZV

 

[Mr N8]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Arkitech
I believe in God as well but I'm starting to slowly come to the conclusion that either (A) God simply does not care enough about mankind to intervene in his affairs or (B) perhaps a being that is truly immortal lacks the ability to empathize with creatures who have a finite lifespan. Neither conclusion is really appealing.

Regarding A, sometimes, for reasons that the child doesn't understand, a parent will knowingly allow the child to screw up because in the long run it's better for the child. I theorise that God is doing the same thing except in a game with much, much higher stakes.

I mean, if everything came about perfectly, we'd all just be a bunch of spoiled brats.

ZV

That does make a lot of sense. I guess the same logic could be applied that we are allowed to make our own choices, which could eventually point out our own futility when it comes to living life. Then, coming to an understanding that we actually do need God. Kind of like he doesn't want to be our crutch, especially if we are only willing to believe in him when we think we need God the most.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: MogulMonster
I haven't got the answer, but I believe like Skoorb does, that life becomes meaningless and unfulfilling without God in it.

No, a life without God does not become meaningless. This is one of those arguments that I've never understood. The life we have is the life we have, whether we believe or not. The beauty is still there every day in everything. If this day is all I have, if there is nothing else after this and I again become absolutely nothing, everything is worth it. Life is worth experiencing for its own sake, if you feel that you have to add more meaning beyond life itself, then you're not quite seeing everything. When you can look with genuine wonder and amazement at the patterns rain makes in a muddy field, you're seeing.

ZV

 

[XtremepH]

I myself believe in God and the bible. The reason being is that scientists have yet to disprove the Bible. There is a still a list of major problems with religion and I understand completely why most people don't believe in it or don't go to church. It is simply because everyone twistes and manipulate what they believe religion should be in there eyes and don't follow the bible directly then they force it upon other people to believe there crap. The truth of the matter is most people who go to church are hypocrits and most of the Pastors on TV and locally are just in it for the money.

 

[Arkitech]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Arkitech
I believe in God as well but I'm starting to slowly come to the conclusion that either (A) God simply does not care enough about mankind to intervene in his affairs or (B) perhaps a being that is truly immortal lacks the ability to empathize with creatures who have a finite lifespan. Neither conclusion is really appealing.

Regarding A, sometimes, for reasons that the child doesn't understand, a parent will knowingly allow the child to screw up because in the long run it's better for the child. I theorise that God is doing the same thing except in a game with much, much higher stakes.

I mean, if everything came about perfectly, we'd all just be a bunch of spoiled brats.

ZV

There's some logic there but there's also some serious issues as well. Would a parent allow his kid to get hit by a car just to teach the child the lesson that playing in the street is dangerous? I've heard that argument before that God is letting mankind make his mistakes before he steps in to clean things up. But unfortunately that argument does'nt address the influence of Satan and his demons, the fact that Adam and Eve had opportunities that no other humans have had. Obviously I don't know the answers but considering the fact that each and every human was given logic and intelligence to figure certain things out for themselves it really disturbs me that the answers I'm coming up with are'nt more reassuring.

 

[xcript]

Originally posted by: XtremepH

I myself believe in God and the bible. The reason being is that scientists have yet to disprove the Bible.

I believe in Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy. The reason being that scientists have yet to disprove either.

Sorry, I'm just being a bitch.

 

[MegaloManiaK]

I would like to point out that coming to a tech forum where any topic about religion is populated by a group of atheists who think people with religion are dumb, arguing with a group of religious people who think that somehow they can ever change the mind of someone over the internet.

If you have questions about what it means to not believe in god ask them here. If you have questions about what it means to believe in god you should ask it somewhere that is not as hostile about the issue. These threads always start off as a reasonable discussion until one side says something sarcastic and the other side takes it personal then Boom, its over.

Don't expect to get any real answers here, do expect this topic to be filled with 200+ messages of argumentive drivel.

 

[XtremepH]

Originally posted by: xcript

Originally posted by: XtremepH

I myself believe in God and the bible. The reason being is that scientists have yet to disprove the Bible.

I believe in Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy. The reason being that scientists have yet to disprove either.

Sorry, I'm just being a bitch.

Well the fact that they discovered Noah's arc in a mountain is just one reason.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: MogulMonster
I haven't got the answer, but I believe like Skoorb does, that life becomes meaningless and unfulfilling without God in it.

No, a life without God does not become meaningless. This is one of those arguments that I've never understood. The life we have is the life we have, whether we believe or not. The beauty is still there every day in everything. If this day is all I have, if there is nothing else after this and I again become absolutely nothing, everything is worth it. Life is worth experiencing for its own sake, if you feel that you have to add more meaning beyond life itself, then you're not quite seeing everything. When you can look with genuine wonder and amazement at the patterns rain makes in a muddy field, you're seeing.

ZV

Well it's like memory. If you lost your entire memory from present to the past and could only live in the future most of what you've experienced would have been meaningless. Other than changes you affected on the world anything you've done for yourself (like enjoyed a movie, gone on vacation, etc.) would have been pointless, since you can't reemember them. In the same way I see life withoug God as utterly meaningless. Yes atheists can enjoy life while they're living it but when they're gone that's it. And the university will continue on for billions more years without a care for htem. So, if they can't carry on in the afterlife or heaven or whatever it just seems so pointless.

 

[Arkitech]

Originally posted by: XtremepH
I myself believe in God and the bible. The reason being is that scientists have yet to disprove the Bible. There is a still a list of major problems with religion and I understand completely why most people don't believe in it or don't go to church. It is simply because everyone twistes and manipulate what they believe religion should be in there eyes and don't follow the bible directly then they force it upon other people to believe there crap. The truth of the matter is most people who go to church are hypocrits and most of the Pastors on TV and locally are just in it for the money.

I understand exactly where you come from, unfortunately for me this is one of the things that makes somewhat believe that perhaps God does't care about what goes on with humans. If you have millions and millions of people who are searching through various religions for the right way to serve God why does'nt God actually intervene and make it known what he expects of him in a way that others can't water it down or change it.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: MegaloManiaK
I would like to point out that coming to a tech forum where any topic about religion is populated by a group of atheists who think people with religion are dumb, arguing with a group of religious people who think that somehow they can ever change the mind of someone over the internet.

If you have questions about what it means to not believe in god ask them here. If you have questions about what it means to believe in god you should ask it somewhere that is not as hostile about the issue. These threads always start off as a reasonable discussion until one side says something sarcastic and the other side takes it personal then Boom, its over.

Don't expect to get any real answers here, do expect this topic to be filled with 200+ messages of argumentive drivel.

Yep you called it in regards to the post just above yours

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: XtremepH
I myself believe in God and the bible. The reason being is that scientists have yet to disprove the Bible.

That's nice for you, but unfortunately it is logically impossible to prove the non-existance of something. Science cannot ever completely disprove the Bible. Anyone who claims that science can is seriously deluded and lacks even a basic understanding of science. We can no more prove the non-existance of God than we can prove the non-existance of the invisible pink unicorn.

I want to be clear that I'm not suggesting that you should not believe, I'm just pointing out that the reasoning you list isn't going to be able to sway others. Of course, I have strong doubts that anyone who does not find Him of their own efforts can truly have a strong faith.

ZV

 

[StageLeft]

Of course, I have strong doubts that anyone who does not find Him of their own efforts can truly have a strong faith.

True. One's faith is easily shaken if it's merely the result of being brought up in the environment and never thinking deeply about it or havnig it tested.

 

[xSauronx]

Originally posted by: Arkitech
I believe in God as well but I'm starting to slowly come to the conclusion that either (A) God simply does not care enough about mankind to intervene in his affairs or (B) perhaps a being that is truly immortal lacks the ability to empathize with creatures who have a finite lifespan. Neither conclusion is really appealing.

maybe
if there is god
hes beyond our comprehension, and none of us will really every figure god out

just a thought

 

[MegaloManiaK]

Originally posted by: Arkitech

Originally posted by: XtremepH
I myself believe in God and the bible. The reason being is that scientists have yet to disprove the Bible. There is a still a list of major problems with religion and I understand completely why most people don't believe in it or don't go to church. It is simply because everyone twistes and manipulate what they believe religion should be in there eyes and don't follow the bible directly then they force it upon other people to believe there crap. The truth of the matter is most people who go to church are hypocrits and most of the Pastors on TV and locally are just in it for the money.

I understand exactly where you come from, unfortunately for me this is one of the things that makes somewhat believe that perhaps God does't care about what goes on with humans. If you have millions and millions of people who are searching through various religions for the right way to serve God why does'nt God actually intervene and make it known what he expects of him in a way that others can't water it down or change it.

He did, they cruicified him for it. Today people discredit anything written becuase they didn't actualy see it with their own eyes. He would have to come down and stick around forever to accomplish what you are asking.

 

[Wuffsunie]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Well it's like memory. If you lost your entire memory from present to the past and could only live in the future most of what you've experienced would have been meaningless. Other than changes you affected on the world anything you've done for yourself (like enjoyed a movie, gone on vacation, etc.) would have been pointless, since you can't reemember them. In the same way I see life withoug God as utterly meaningless. Yes atheists can enjoy life while they're living it but when they're gone that's it. And the university will continue on for billions more years without a care for htem. So, if they can't carry on in the afterlife or heaven or whatever it just seems so pointless.

Totally untrue. If this is all we get, if this is all we can possibly know, we must savor it. The point is that soon it'll be gone. You could live to be 100, you could get hit by a car on the street tomorrow. And then it would all be over. Religious types can reassure themselves by telling themselves that regardless of what happens to them here, they still have all of eternity to look forward to. Their lives can be totally pointless and unproductive, aside from their devoition to Jesus, and it's alright, because they have infinity in which to do other things. For those that don't get an afterlife, they're left picking and choosing how best to live out things with the hand they've been dealth before the axe falls, every single day of their finite life. Yes, we all must do things we don't like (job, etc) in order to survive, but fun and enjoyment should be had whenever possible.

As to Arkitech's (cute name) original comment, I have many of the same beefs. However, I think he needs to take it one step further. I don't blame God for letting the misery and suffering and unenlightenment and hate flouish in the world like He does now, I blame him for creating the system in the first place. It's like the Monty Python song All Things Dull and Ugly. God created the whole batch, not just the nice and pretty. He created sin and built Hell. He set up the circumstances under which Adam and Eve fell, knowing full well that they'd do so. (All powerful, all seeing, etc). He creates his tools and then condems them to fiery eterninity if they're not memebers of select groups, even when they've not had the privledge of even hearing about those groups.

God built the system and set the rules. And this is what we've ended up with.

-- Jack

ps. I've always though that this place would make a far better Pergitory (no indisputable proof of God, no way of knowing when you might leave, a$$holes all around. Perfect test) than a starting point.

We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing, all-powerful God, who creates faulty humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes.
-- Gene Roddenberry

 

[TMPadmin]

Seems like we are not alone these days. Maybe it's just coincidence but I have noticed more people questioning their faith, and more people firming up their faith lately. Either way it's comforting to know I'm not completely alone in my doubts.

The other day I had a scary thought. (I think I posted this somewhere here) Many religions don't believe that animals have a soul, only humans. If this is the case then our Homo Erectus probably didn't have a soul or if they did maybe have to go further back. Anyway, what if we are no different then them? What if we are just another evolutionary step towards the "chosen people"? If God does not accept all species as "His flock" What makes us different? The fact that we can see our end and don't like it? I really, really want to believe. I brought two boys into this world and if there is nothing for them after they die then I feel bad for what I have done. You may think that extreme but through life there is a natural progression where there SHOULD be an ultimate outcome. At least that's what my limited functioning brain tells me. Does this now bring us to reincarnation? Why!? Why would anyone want to come back? Or, are our souls like Q on STTNG, and earth is a jail or a school or something else? I can go on with all my wild eyed ideas but none are so far off from what is accepted as a religion, just not as much time behind them.

The big question is WHY? Why spend so much energy? The universe is consuming large amounts of energy there must be a reason. But let's picture existence before the big bang. NOTHING. That can't even properly describe it but there is God. Just sitting there for eternity. Whatever He was doing. Can you grasp eternity in the past? I can't. There is no reason for it. There is no reason for God either. But all our thoughts are from what we consider as intelligent. We use what 10% of our brain's potential? Increase that to 50% and I'm sure we would be a little closer to understanding. Can you imagine 99% processing power? We will never know the answers. Maybe that is to be comfort enough.

Did I write all that? I have more but don't want to bore you anymore.

 

[Tret]

I'm agonistic