I wonder about religion often...

[Rilescat]

Go to church this upcoming Sunday. Sit through the sermon for the one hour and then go home. While at home, turn on the Discovery channel or history channel and watch for one hour.

Compare the two.

Which seems more plausible?

Every single time I do that, History/Discover blows God away.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Luagsch

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Luagsch

Originally posted by: Arkitech
Just noticed you were raised as a Jehovah's witness.

Lots and lots of GUILT is built into raising their children.

tell me about it...
i'm still not completly over it... which sux a$$ cause i think of myself being atheist... damn subconscious. :frown:

You gotta make up your mind one way or the other.

Just send them a letter asking that you be dropped from their "member list".

JW's think of themselves as the only true religion (the only ones "preaching the 'good news' " earthwide)- like god's only means of survival as was Noah's ark. Unfortunately, they are showing themselves no different than any other cult since they can't get their dates or prophecies right and their support for their "widows and orphans" sucks.


EDIT: "Personal Testimony" is going to help no one but the person feeling it. And "drugs" can give one the same feeling.

well i'm outta there since 6 years but sometimes just seeing my parents lets the old guilt feelings come up again. time to get over it i guess

Ah, the 'rents massaging the old guilt feelings.

Just tell them you are NOT interested. Then ask them what's up with 1914 and that 'generation [not] passing away'.



Looks like JW's have to modify something (again) SOON.

 

[TravisT]

Originally posted by: Rilescat
Go to church this upcoming Sunday. Sit through the sermon for the one hour and then go home. While at home, turn on the Discovery channel or history channel and watch for one hour.

Compare the two.

Which seems more plausible?

Every single time I do that, History/Discover blows God away.

A sermon isn't going to tell you everything about God that you need to know. Its something you have to do yourself. Study the bible for yourself, then that will give you a better feel for what its about. There are many ways to interprete the bible. Some i don't completely agree with and you have to figure out which denomination believes as closely as you do before you'll be able to feel comfortable there.

If you've only sit through a sermon a few times then you probably only know very little about it.

 

[optoman]

Originally posted by: Rilescat
Go to church this upcoming Sunday. Sit through the sermon for the one hour and then go home. While at home, turn on the Discovery channel or history channel and watch for one hour.

Compare the two.

Which seems more plausible?

Every single time I do that, History/Discover blows God away.

lol, how true it is. My question that I keep asking but can not get answered is, who does God worship?

Everytime I have been to church lately, I notice that everyone acts like they are in some kind of cult. They say things in unison like god is great. Reminds me of the Simpsons episode were the guy forms a cult with the citizens of Springfield and steals all their money only to be a fraud.

 

[zogg]

Here is food for thought

food for thought

 

[Rob9874]

For example we know that parents who love their children will do anything to protect them from harm and try to raise them as responsible adults. But when you apply that example to God things start to fall apart. Since every human on Earth is considered a child of God, logically it should mean that we all have the best protection from harm that is possible. But of course thats not the case because people get raped, killed, mutilated and hurt every single minute of the day.

But like a parent, God can't prevent bad things from happening. If you're going to compare a loving parent to God, then why not ask how can a loving parent not protect their child from rape and murder? Life would be pretty meaningless if God dictated our every moves.

 

[Wuffsunie]

Originally posted by: Rob9874

For example we know that parents who love their children will do anything to protect them from harm and try to raise them as responsible adults. But when you apply that example to God things start to fall apart. Since every human on Earth is considered a child of God, logically it should mean that we all have the best protection from harm that is possible. But of course thats not the case because people get raped, killed, mutilated and hurt every single minute of the day.

But like a parent, God can't prevent bad things from happening. If you're going to compare a loving parent to God, then why not ask how can a loving parent not protect their child from rape and murder? Life would be pretty meaningless if God dictated our every moves.

*Twitch... blink... LAUGH* God MADE the world! He created the concepts of rape and murder. And every other horrible act we can persue. He permits this by the very design of the universe. God also has the power to circumvent the laws of this universe which he has created. He can bring the dead back to life should He want to and other astounding things. God ALLOWING things is not so much the vital question as why He even permitted them to exist at all!

 

[MonkeyK]

Originally posted by: XtremepH
I myself believe in God and the bible. The reason being is that scientists have yet to disprove the Bible.

no one is going to disprove the Bible. There are too many copies floating around. It's content, on the other hand, can easily be shown to be inconsistent at best (unless predicated on the existence of God --in which case you will not accept those inconsistencies anyways).

 

[jyates]

Originally posted by: Nitemare
I believe in a higher power and that most die hard religious types are hypocrites.

That's a pretty wide paint brush you are painting with there.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I do too and I am fairly certain that without God life is an empty meaninglessness. At the samet ime that belief doesn't help me believe in God, so it's rather a predicament I'm in.

That's the purpose of religion. We as thinking, feeling humans want so desperately for our lives to mean something that we're completely happy to invent a steaming pile of nonsense to give us that illusion. Do you honestly think the universe cares? Do you honestly think anything about your life will make the slightest difference in a cosmos billions of lightyears and more across and billions of years old?

Perhaps you do... *shrug*

 

[Ameesh]

Originally posted by: XtremepH

Originally posted by: Ameesh

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: XtremepH

Originally posted by: xcript

Originally posted by: XtremepH

I myself believe in God and the bible. The reason being is that scientists have yet to disprove the Bible.

I believe in Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy. The reason being that scientists have yet to disprove either.

Sorry, I'm just being a bitch.

Well the fact that they discovered Noah's arc in a mountain is just one reason.

Considering there IS NO ark...that's a neat trick.

no no! i read it, noah himself found and put a pair of all 1.5 million species of animals in a boat that he made and fed them and cleaned their poop and everything for 40 days and 40 nights. It happened! Believe me or else!

LOL you guys are hilarious. The Plain truth is that as humans it is hard to believe something unless you see it come true right in front of your eyes. And with that said I don't blame anyone who doesn't believe in God.

i cant see radioactive decay but i do believe in it

 

[WinkOsmosis]

There is no god.

 

[xirtam]

Originally posted by: Wuffsunie

Originally posted by: Rob9874

For example we know that parents who love their children will do anything to protect them from harm and try to raise them as responsible adults. But when you apply that example to God things start to fall apart. Since every human on Earth is considered a child of God, logically it should mean that we all have the best protection from harm that is possible. But of course thats not the case because people get raped, killed, mutilated and hurt every single minute of the day.

But like a parent, God can't prevent bad things from happening. If you're going to compare a loving parent to God, then why not ask how can a loving parent not protect their child from rape and murder? Life would be pretty meaningless if God dictated our every moves.

*Twitch... blink... LAUGH* God MADE the world! He created the concepts of rape and murder. And every other horrible act we can persue. He permits this by the very design of the universe. God also has the power to circumvent the laws of this universe which he has created. He can bring the dead back to life should He want to and other astounding things. God ALLOWING things is not so much the vital question as why He even permitted them to exist at all!

"He created the concepts of rape and murder. And every other horrible act we can persue. "

Actively (by thinking them) or passively (by allowing His creation to think them)?

He permits this by the very design of the universe.

This implies passively. In other words, since without God the world would not exist, and since some bad things exist now, God has passively introduced bad things into the world. That's not the same thing as actively introducing rape and murder.

My answer to your question as to why He even permitted these bad things to exist at all is the same answer for why he ALLOWS things, since they're one and the same. God allowing something bad to be created is the reason why it exists, therefore the two questions are the same. And the answer: complexity. Consider a game of chess wherein every move is anticipated. Now consider that you are not allowed to make a wrong move, because every time you start making a wrong one, you are forced by your opponent to make the best possible move. Will you ever learn chess? No -- in fact, you would be incredibly bored with it. Will you lose a lot of games of chess before you develop into a stronger chess player if you are not offered this support? Yes.

A couple more questions: if by making you lose a metaphorical chess game, God makes you a better person, has He committed an injustice? Where does intuition come from?

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Wuffsunie

Originally posted by: Rob9874

For example we know that parents who love their children will do anything to protect them from harm and try to raise them as responsible adults. But when you apply that example to God things start to fall apart. Since every human on Earth is considered a child of God, logically it should mean that we all have the best protection from harm that is possible. But of course thats not the case because people get raped, killed, mutilated and hurt every single minute of the day.

But like a parent, God can't prevent bad things from happening. If you're going to compare a loving parent to God, then why not ask how can a loving parent not protect their child from rape and murder? Life would be pretty meaningless if God dictated our every moves.

*Twitch... blink... LAUGH* God MADE the world! He created the concepts of rape and murder. And every other horrible act we can persue. He permits this by the very design of the universe. God also has the power to circumvent the laws of this universe which he has created. He can bring the dead back to life should He want to and other astounding things. God ALLOWING things is not so much the vital question as why He even permitted them to exist at all!

And if God were to remove all option of us behaving badly, this whole thing would be pointless. We'd all be mindless little robots with no choices of our own at all. It's not as though He's deciding who gets raped or murdered, He is simply allowing the rapists and murderers free will. He didn't create rape and murder, He created in us free will and we created rape and murder on our own. All He did was allow us to make our own choices, we screwed those choices up royally on our own.

In short, such things are permitted to exists because they are a necessary effect of free will being bestowed upon being who are imperfect and flawed. He could rid the world of such things, but then we would not have free will and there would be no point because we would never learn anything on our own. We would, in effect, be a mass of clockwork oranges.

ZV

EDIT: All of your questions carry the implied assumption that there is nothing after this existance. You are concerned greatly with the suffereing inherent in this existance while you give no thought at all to how such suffering might benefit us by making us "better" in the next existance.

Oh, and by the way, just as an aside; I am very happily surprised that this thread has not degenerated into a massive flame war. Both sides of this discussion deserve great credit for that.

 

[WarCon]

I would just like to add a stray thought to all of this discussion. If you were able to step back out of the flowing stream of time and look at events and lifetimes as static objects, then you might come to realize all of our actions are permanent. They are forever written into the very fabric of reality. They also have permanent and forever effect on everything down(time)stream. This is the view (albiet in a limited sense as I can't truly understand Omniscient and Omnipresent) of our Maker. Time doesn't erase us, nor will death. If I were an eternal being (and I believe I am), I am truly going to be shamed to look upon the darkness I wrought upon the fabric of a once perfect creation. I didn't come to believe in a Savior because of this thought, but have been thankful since that He will repair the damage I have done and make right my path forever more.

See I more than believe in God, I believe in His Salvation for my eternal nature (soul).

Food for thought.

I won't try to convince anyone that there is God, as it took what I consider direct intervention for me to change my thoughts on the matter. So I won't waste the time of an atheist, as they think they only have this lifetime and that they might (not for me to say). What I really don't understand is why atheists would waste what time they are given trying to convince those that believe in God that he doesn't exist? What a perfect waste of the limited time you believe alloted to you with the end result (if successful) being another human thinking there is no eternity and realizing the overall hopelessness of the whole thing (assuming finality as the answer). Kind of sounds like the old saying about "Misery loving company". Please don't consider these words a flame as they aren't. Just me not understanding.

Warren

 

[Haller]

Originally posted by: XtremepH

Originally posted by: Ameesh

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: XtremepH

Originally posted by: xcript

Originally posted by: XtremepH

I myself believe in God and the bible. The reason being is that scientists have yet to disprove the Bible.

I believe in Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy. The reason being that scientists have yet to disprove either.

Sorry, I'm just being a bitch.

Well the fact that they discovered Noah's arc in a mountain is just one reason.

Considering there IS NO ark...that's a neat trick.

no no! i read it, noah himself found and put a pair of all 1.5 million species of animals in a boat that he made and fed them and cleaned their poop and everything for 40 days and 40 nights. It happened! Believe me or else!

LOL you guys are hilarious. The Plain truth is that as humans it is hard to believe something unless you see it come true right in front of your eyes. And with that said I don't blame anyone who doesn't believe in God.

Ironically enough the plain Truth was right in front of everybody's eyes, and continues to be in those that follow Jesus Christ. I can't remember who, but somebody stated that there are no modern miracles. I would have to disagree of course, because I am an admitted Christian. For example, the way The Bible came together is a miracle. The fact that jews still exist is so socially impossible that it has to be attributed to God's promise to the Sons of Abraham. Now, let's not blow that out of proportion and say it's an anti semitic statement. It's just that historically speaking, the jews have been conquered, hated, and subject to attempts at genocide in almost every century by almost every other ethnic group.

 

[Haller]

Originally posted by: xirtam

Originally posted by: Wuffsunie

Originally posted by: Rob9874

For example we know that parents who love their children will do anything to protect them from harm and try to raise them as responsible adults. But when you apply that example to God things start to fall apart. Since every human on Earth is considered a child of God, logically it should mean that we all have the best protection from harm that is possible. But of course thats not the case because people get raped, killed, mutilated and hurt every single minute of the day.

But like a parent, God can't prevent bad things from happening. If you're going to compare a loving parent to God, then why not ask how can a loving parent not protect their child from rape and murder? Life would be pretty meaningless if God dictated our every moves.

*Twitch... blink... LAUGH* God MADE the world! He created the concepts of rape and murder. And every other horrible act we can persue. He permits this by the very design of the universe. God also has the power to circumvent the laws of this universe which he has created. He can bring the dead back to life should He want to and other astounding things. God ALLOWING things is not so much the vital question as why He even permitted them to exist at all!

"He created the concepts of rape and murder. And every other horrible act we can persue. "

Actively (by thinking them) or passively (by allowing His creation to think them)?

He permits this by the very design of the universe.

This implies passively. In other words, since without God the world would not exist, and since some bad things exist now, God has passively introduced bad things into the world. That's not the same thing as actively introducing rape and murder.

My answer to your question as to why He even permitted these bad things to exist at all is the same answer for why he ALLOWS things, since they're one and the same. God allowing something bad to be created is the reason why it exists, therefore the two questions are the same. And the answer: complexity. Consider a game of chess wherein every move is anticipated. Now consider that you are not allowed to make a wrong move, because every time you start making a wrong one, you are forced by your opponent to make the best possible move. Will you ever learn chess? No -- in fact, you would be incredibly bored with it. Will you lose a lot of games of chess before you develop into a stronger chess player if you are not offered this support? Yes.

A couple more questions: if by making you lose a metaphorical chess game, God makes you a better person, has He committed an injustice? Where does intuition come from?

To answer your question using the words of the man you doubt...here's a passage that deals with what concerns you.

"Then he put another parable before them. "The kingdom of Heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were asleep his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the crop came up and ripened, the weeds appeared as well. Then the owner's servants came up to him and said, 'Sir didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where did all these weeds come from?' 'Some blackguard has done this to spite me,' he replied. 'Do you want us then to go out and pull them all up?' said the servants. 'No, if you pull up the weeds now, you would pull up the wheat with them. Let them both grow together till the harvest. And at harvest-time I shall tell the reapers, 'Collect all the weeds first and tie them up in bundles, ready to burn, but collect the wheat and store it in my barn." Matthew 13:24-30

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Haller

Ironically enough the plain Truth was right in front of everybody's eyes, and continues to be in those that follow Jesus Christ. I can't remember who, but somebody stated that there are no modern miracles. I would have to disagree of course, because I am an admitted Christian. For example, the way The Bible came together is a miracle. The fact that jews still exist is so socially impossible that it has to be attributed to God's promise to the Sons of Abraham. Now, let's not blow that out of proportion and say it's an anti semitic statement. It's just that historically speaking, the jews have been conquered, hated, and subject to attempts at genocide in almost every century by almost every other ethnic group.

It was I.

I'll repeat: there are no verifyable modern miracles.

The Bible "came together" in the 1st Century, within 70 years of Jesus' death. No miracle as the Jews already had the OT and the new christian congregation put together the rest of the gospel and apostles letters.

God ended his promise to Abraham's "natural sons" with the "adoption" of the new christian covenant and new "gentile sons". The Jews lost favour, their temple was destroyed and they were scattered. The entire emphasis of the NT is on "spiritual Israel", not the "fleshly Jews". Read Paul's letter to the Hebrews if you have any doubt.

So, what modern miracles?

 

[zogg]

Is the old testament god a diferent god then the new testament god?
It sure seems like it when I compare excerpts from the ot versus the nt.