Question I7-10700KF is making me weak in the knees.

[GodisanAtheist]

Amazon has it going for $270. Paired with a ~$220 motherboard (what Z490 boards seem to be going around these days) it would be a relatively affordable way to springboard to a solid 8/16 core set-up to carry me for the next several years.

Basically everything else in the sig-rig would play it forward into the new one.

Have some concerns about putting down $500+ clams for what amounts to some extra CPU cores without any real forward looking tech, but who knows if and when any of those things (resizable BAR, PCI-E 4.0, DDR5, etc) actually become entrenched and really required for performance. By then (6-8 years down the line) I'll be ready for my new graphine chiplet based 64 core processor upgrade.

Drop in a new GPU when that market settles down and should be in good shape.

What am I missing, and why isn't everyone doing this?

 

[Kenmitch]

PCI-E 4.0 doesn't mean crap to me. It doesn't do anything for SSD or GPU performance unless you sit around and transfer massive files all day. Game loading, OS startup, and pretty much every other normal usage sees no improvement. SSD performance leveled out a long time ago. I "upgraded" to a Samsung 970 EVO NVME drive for the OS coming from an old regular sata SSD and the difference there is minimal to non existent. The OS loads a tiny bit faster and games might load a pinch faster? Going from this to a 4th get SSD is not on my list of things to care about, probably ever.

Most of your self justification will be thrown out the window once Microsoft's DirectStorage is implemented.....You know you could have easily gotten a Ryzen 5xxx rig if you truly wanted one.

 

[Adul]

-I have to admit I'm a little shocked by how capable the 5600x is, especially given the narrative about AMD finally "catching up" with Intel... Looks like they got intel pretty handily beat at the moment.

My understanding is the 11xxx gen isn't really a huge improvement over 10xxx either.

Haven't had an AMD build since my now ancient A64 3800x2 and would love to go with an AMD build... But I am going 8 core hell or high water. 5800x is a bit rich for my blood at the moment hope we get a 5700 or some more affordable varient on 8/16 format.

Maybe the idea is just to keep waiting until AM5 with DDR5 is out and see what happens then... But my current build will be pretty badly outdated by that point.

I'll sleep on the 5600x suggestion and see how I feel about it. Figure boards are much more plentiful and affordable for AM4 as well, but I'll have to look.

Edit: Holy crap 5600x's going for $350-400 around here. Guess that puts a fork in that...

you can also go with a good B550 MB as well to save on cost further. Some great options there as well.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

I'm not up on PCI interfaces. How does my Haswell system compare to PCIe 4.0? Must be pretty primitive in comparison I imagine?

Not really. Haswell supports PCIe 3.0, as does the previous Ivy Bridge. The main issue with the Haswell LGA-1150 platform is that the PCH is only connected by a DMI 2.0 link, which in effect means a PCIe 2.0 x4 link. Which is shared among all devices connected to it. So that kind of limits what you can get out of it.

This means you have to sacrifice 8 lanes from the CPU if you want to use a PCIe 3.0 SSD. I still have a running Haswell system, it's no big deal fortunately. There are a few boards (Asrock Z97-Extreme6 or 9) which have a PCIe 3.0 x4 M.2 slot already, but they're hard to find, unless you got one back then. Otherwise, a PCIe-to-M.2 adaptor does the trick.

Further, older (8-series) LGA-1150 boards do not support booting from an NVMe drive. You need a Z97-based board for that.

 

[Magic Carpet]

Further, older (8-series) LGA-1150 boards do not support booting from an NVMe drive. You need a Z97-based board for that.

It’s even possible on older chipsets, but may require some modding.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

It’s even possible on older chipsets, but may require some modding.

Forgot about that. It's just out-of-box support that's lacking.

 

[moonbogg]

Most of your self justification will be thrown out the window once Microsoft's DirectStorage is implemented.....You know you could have easily gotten a Ryzen 5xxx rig if you truly wanted one.

By the time Microsoft direct storage actually means anything to me I'll probably be looking at a next-gen platform or already have one. Alderlake and the next Zen is right around the corner. Z490 was just a cheap stop-gap for me to improve VR performance and do better in Battlefield 6 when it drops this year if I haven't upgraded.
My opinion stems from my own experience of observing little to no difference going from sata to M.2. Windows loads faster and maybe games load a little faster, but these differences are minimal and I never found myself wishing for faster hard drive performance anyway. The returns for everyday use are rapidly diminishing past sata drives. Going from gen 3 NVME to anything faster isn't a reason to chase a particular platform. The reason I don't have a Zen 3 is because they were both unavailable and too damn expensive anyway. I also may have dodged a bullet with that USB bug. I can't image how enraged I would have been if my headset was cutting out and there was nothing I could do to fix it. Unbelievable. I could sell the 10700K I just got and get a 5800X, but it's not happening. That kind of behavior is a symptom of mental illness more than anything else and right now AMD's prices make me kind of sick anyway to be honest.
I might end up forgetting all about PC gaming anyway with the stupid GPU prices (even during normal times) if PS5 VR is as interesting as it's shaping up to be.

 

[chrisjames61]

I might end up forgetting all about PC gaming anyway with the stupid GPU prices (even during normal times) if PS5 VR is as interesting as it's shaping up to be.

There might not be anymore pc gaming unless AMD and Nvidia start making cards that people can afford and actually purchase. It seems like it is a slippery slope right now. You need a healthy gpu market in the long term and it is anything but that.

 

[moonbogg]

There might not be anymore pc gaming unless AMD and Nvidia start making cards that people can afford and actually purchase. It seems like it is a slippery slope right now. You need a healthy gpu market in the long term and it is anything but that.

Apparently they haven't been charging enough for their GPUs because they fly off the shelves no matter what. $1,200 2080Ti, $1,500 3090 flew off the shelves. RTX 3080 sells for $2000 on ebay like it's a pack of skittles. The only problem with Nvidia's prices are they haven't been high enough. If I was a shareholder I'd be enraged right now and would definitely sue them. If I were a shareholder and I just learned that mid range GPU's from 4 years ago are currently selling like hotcakes for $800 on ebay, I'd sue the piss out of Nvidia.
This entire time they've been selling high-end cards for under $1000?? Idiots. Anything capable of 1080p gaming needs to be $800+. If it's 1440p capable it should be $1500+ and for God's own sake, if it can game at 4K and Nvidia doesn't charge $2500+ from now on, then they deserve to get sued into oblivion where they will sip tea and reminisce with the lost souls of 3DFX.

 

[killster1]

Don't forget Microsoft is working on DirectStorage for PC to reduce I/O overhead on NVMe drives so those super fast drives actually show a benefit in gaming.

So while I don't care about PCIe 4.0 now, eventually a faster SSD will make a meaningful difference in gaming performance. If you plan to keep your system several years then getting something with PCIe 4.0 capability seems like a no-brainer.

if you are keeping it so long then pcie5.0 would be even less of a brainer? ;P pcie4 has been out a long while and nothing uses it . no idea what direct storage is but i guess i can read on it now, not that it will be affordable or usable while pcie4 is around i use a x470 and couldnt be happier. a z590 would bring me the same joy.

 

[VirtualLarry]

The only problem with Nvidia's prices are they haven't been high enough. If I was a shareholder I'd be enraged right now and would definitely sue them. If I were a shareholder and I just learned that mid range GPU's from 4 years ago are currently selling like hotcakes for $800 on ebay, I'd sue the piss out of Nvidia.

That's an interesting insight, and, given the current situation, it SEEMS to be true. That Nvidia (and by corollary, AMD) have been vastly undercharging for GPUs, compared to what the market will bear (at this moment).

 

[krumme]

I have a bad feeling Mikes Ryzen 5 will hammer Intel cpu to the ground. Result as in the past: 10 years of 6 core cpu as mainstream with little changes at +300 usd. Anyways; pales in comparison to midrange gpu of 600 usd.

 

[moonbogg]

That's an interesting insight, and, given the current situation, it SEEMS to be true. That Nvidia (and by corollary, AMD) have been vastly undercharging for GPUs, compared to what the market will bear (at this moment).

At this point I no longer believe that there is a practical limit to what the market will bear, at least nothing remotely close to what we have traditionally expected GPU's to cost. Nvidia could increase prices across the entire board by 3X and every GPU would sell out instantly, even during normal times. AMD would raise prices accordingly and if you want a GPU, that's what you pay, and people would pay it.
Sure, vast numbers of people would no longer be able to game at all, but honestly who cares? Nvidia shouldn't. There are plenty of people who can afford to game at those prices. Additionally, people love to rub their status in the faces of others, so PC gaming would simply be a status thing, propelling it to new heights. It would actually work.
Same goes for cars. People scoff at cars that cost more than their house, but those cars sell out instantly too. At some point society needs to move past the gripes and groans of the bitter poor and cater to those willing to pay for the fruits of an advanced civilization. Maybe those who can't afford to buy a PC should take up farming or something and just go somewhere really far away and raise cattle or something, although I'd expect them to just complain about the price of fertilizer or whatever else they don't want to actually pay for.

 

[fleshconsumed]

Calm down people. Inadequate supply with surging crypto prices is what's keeping the prices sky high. Miners are snapping up cards because it's profitable even at inflated prices like that. Did I enjoy paying $500 for a midrange card that should have been $300-350 tops? No, but I can mine when I'm not gaming to offset the high cost. Once the crypto aspect goes away with ETH going PoS demand will fall and video card prices will fall.

 

[moonbogg]

The 10700K is at Microcenter for $250 right now. Good lord that's an unbelievable deal. You just don't see things like that. I think that's more performance for the price than anything we've seen in many years, seriously.

 

[scineram]

Zen 2 was the best deal in the world for a whole year. Now it’s Intel’s turn.

 

[chrisjames61]

Calm down people. Inadequate supply with surging crypto prices is what's keeping the prices sky high. Miners are snapping up cards because it's profitable even at inflated prices like that. Did I enjoy paying $500 for a midrange card that should have been $300-350 tops? No, but I can mine when I'm not gaming to offset the high cost. Once the crypto aspect goes away with ETH going PoS demand will fall and video card prices will fall.

All valid points but what what is going to keep this cycle from repeating and becoming the norm? At what point are 99% of the gamers completely squeezed out and throw in the towel?

 

[Mopetar]

All valid points but what what is going to keep this cycle from repeating and becoming the norm? At what point are 99% of the gamers completely squeezed out and throw in the towel?

They won't, because at the end of the mining boom is the mining bust and all of those GPUs that were locked up mining for months will hit the market at the same time, which makes it incredibly easy to pick up a new GPU.

Once people get any card that has some kind of upscaling, there's a lot less pressure to upgrade since if you have a four year old card and need to stretch it through a mining boom you can just turn on DLSS or whatever the eventual AMD equivalent is called to compensate for having an older, less powerful card.

The gaming industry didn't die or vanish the last time there was a mining boom, so there's little reason to suspect that this time will be any different.

 

[CP5670]

At this point I no longer believe that there is a practical limit to what the market will bear, at least nothing remotely close to what we have traditionally expected GPU's to cost. Nvidia could increase prices across the entire board by 3X and every GPU would sell out instantly, even during normal times. AMD would raise prices accordingly and if you want a GPU, that's what you pay, and people would pay it.
Sure, vast numbers of people would no longer be able to game at all, but honestly who cares? Nvidia shouldn't. There are plenty of people who can afford to game at those prices. Additionally, people love to rub their status in the faces of others, so PC gaming would simply be a status thing, propelling it to new heights. It would actually work.
Same goes for cars. People scoff at cars that cost more than their house, but those cars sell out instantly too. At some point society needs to move past the gripes and groans of the bitter poor and cater to those willing to pay for the fruits of an advanced civilization. Maybe those who can't afford to buy a PC should take up farming or something and just go somewhere really far away and raise cattle or something, although I'd expect them to just complain about the price of fertilizer or whatever else they don't want to actually pay for.

JHH actually said at one point that he wants people to think of high end video cards like luxury cars or watches and not just electronics. You buy it because you want it and you deserve it for your hard work in life. That's also why there are so many AIB variants these days, the cards are supposed to be unique so people form emotional attachments to them.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

I would pay good honest hard earned money... Just to watch @moonbogg rant.

Worth way more than what hardware is selling for nowadays

Just finished watching some Always Sunny and heard it in the voice of an angry Dennis Reynolds.

 

[moonbogg]

I would pay good honest hard earned money... Just to watch @moonbogg rant.

Worth way more than what hardware is selling for nowadays

Just finished watching some Always Sunny and heard it in the voice of an angry Dennis Reynolds.

I'm a sensitive creature and this GPU drought feels like a jackhammer in my crotch.

 

[CP5670]

I think PC gaming and hardware is also way more mainstream these days, while 15 years ago it was a niche activity for nerds like us. Lots of people are into it now and are willing to pay absurd prices for video cards with the money saved from not going on vacations or other things. The next stimulus check is going to make it even worse.

 

[chrisjames61]

I think PC gaming and hardware is also way more mainstream these days, while 15 years ago it was a niche activity for nerds like us. Lots of people are into it now and are willing to pay absurd prices for video cards with the money saved from not going on vacations or other things. The next stimulus check is going to make it even worse.

At some point you will either need to be rich to buy a decent card or go into hock or do without other things. This will not make for a healthy pc gaming environment or ecosystem. To keep pc gaming viable you need to lower the barriers to entry. Instead many gamers will choose a console and pc gaming will become an afterthought for game developers.

 

[VirtualLarry]

At some point you will either need to be rich to buy a decent card or go into hock or do without other things. This will not make for a healthy pc gaming environment or ecosystem. To keep pc gaming viable you need to lower the barriers to entry. Instead many gamers will choose a console and pc gaming will become an afterthought for game developers.

Didn't the CEO of Nvidia basically state at some point in the past that he envisioned GPUs / PC gaming devices as a "Luxury item, like a SuperCar"?

Maybe this current condition is bearing out some of his expectations of the market, and coming true. Maybe GPUs will be incredibly expensive devices, things that are bestowed upon 18-year-olds upon HS graduation, for their future profession and lives, by well-off middle-class families. Other families, may never know what it's like to own a GPU. Sad to say.

 

[chrisjames61]

Didn't the CEO of Nvidia basically state at some point in the past that he envisioned GPUs / PC gaming devices as a "Luxury item, like a SuperCar"?

Maybe this current condition is bearing out some of his expectations of the market, and coming true. Maybe GPUs will be incredibly expensive devices, things that are bestowed upon 18-year-olds upon HS graduation, for their future profession and lives, by well-off middle-class families. Other families, may never know what it's like to own a GPU. Sad to say.

A great gpu won't do much good unless there are games being developed for the platform which there won't be if only a select few can afford them. We shall see how it plays out.

 

[podspi]

Didn't the CEO of Nvidia basically state at some point in the past that he envisioned GPUs / PC gaming devices as a "Luxury item, like a SuperCar"?

Maybe this current condition is bearing out some of his expectations of the market, and coming true. Maybe GPUs will be incredibly expensive devices, things that are bestowed upon 18-year-olds upon HS graduation, for their future profession and lives, by well-off middle-class families. Other families, may never know what it's like to own a GPU. Sad to say.

GPUs have way too much overhead involved in their production to make this practical. They will always be (at least tied to) high-volume products. I think once the mining-boom is over, the $200~$400 market is going to show a lot of life, new and used.