i7-9700k 8/16 core and others leaked? Is this legit?

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Dayman1225

Golden Member
Aug 14, 2017
1,153
982
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They haven't improved IPC since Skylake.

Since Skylake? They are still using the Skylake core in Kaby and Coffee with a few fixes here and there (errata etc). They haven't had a "new" arch since Skylake. Icelake changes that as well as a die shrink for desktop. I have big expectations otherwise i'll be heavily disappointed
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,785
136
They haven't improved IPC since Skylake.

They were clearly put off guard by the problems they are having on their process. Remember just a generation prior to their 14nm troubles, they were shouting from the rooftops how great they were. And, the 14nm troubles came. Often, the thought of feeling invincible is just moments before a crash.

Since a full design change takes 5-6 years to do so, and everything planned based on 10nm had to change, we see the ramifications of that.

By the way, I don't see Haswell and Skylake as a fresh architectural change. They are just iterative improvements over Sandy Bridge. It's better than they were back in the Netburst and Pentium III days, as any change came only every 5-6 years. Nowadays, they need those frequent changes because traditional Moore's Law based improvements have slowed.
 
Mar 10, 2006
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They haven't improved IPC since Skylake.

That's because they've been using the same CPU core in newer products due to the last minute natures of KBL and CFL. Of course IPC won't go up if the very IP block that determines IPC has not changed on a logical level.
 

Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,375
2,255
136
Since Skylake? They are still using the Skylake core in Kaby and Coffee with a few fixes here and there (errata etc). They haven't had a "new" arch since Skylake. Icelake changes that as well as a die shrink for desktop. I have big expectations otherwise i'll be heavily disappointed

I don't know. While I understand the expectation that something big should come from the next architecture, especially considering we've been on Skylake with minor optimizations for while now, I also think it's important to remember how far we've come. From the original 8086 to the 286, 386, and 486 there were many architectural "breakthroughs." 32 bits with the 386, math coprocessors, etc.. Then came the first superscaler x86 processor with the Pentium. Further optimizations occurred through the pentium years in the 90's and clockspeeds soared from 25MHz to 1GHz+ by the end of the classic Pentium era which I consider to the PIII.

The clockspeed wars also brought us the P4 which was a step backward for Intel but it allowed AMD to catch it's breath, and part of the market. Intel stormed back with the next breakthrough, the Core architecture which is with us today. Then there were 4 generations of core, from C2D, 2xxx, 4xxx, and now 6 though 9xxx. In additions even the process shrinks included architectural optimization that were significant with these generations of core. Core count for the desktop went from 2 to 6 and soon to be 8 for these parts, with clockspeeds topping out at nearly 5GHz.

And now after 40 years of architectural breakthroughs, incremental advances, numerous memory subsystem redesigns with the accompanying faster memory, increase in clockspeed and decreases in process size to the limit of current physics, and core count going increasing 600% we EXPECT something big from Intel. Is this realistic?

Would 8 cores on 10nm with 10% IPC improvement over Coffee Lake be BIG? Well that's where subjectivity comes in. Perhaps for some (like me) but not for others.

The low hanging architectural fruit was long ago picked, even the stuff requiring very large ladders, cherry pickers and fire trucks! Process size has shrunk to the point where physics is becoming a serious roadblock as is thermal density. And all the while Intel knows that the future is in mobile low power devices. So how much R&D really need be spent on the desktop except for features which are useful for mobile?

For better or worse we are nearing the end of one era of CPU development. Will we simply stall at this point with minor changes and continue to use CPU's that are "good enough" until modern physics advances? Or will there be a massive shift in how compute is achieved? Or something else entirely unforeseen and not predicted currently?

It's been 20 years since I first loaded up winsock and found this site. It's been a great ride so far and I'm very interested to see what happens over the next few years as process size and architecture start to hit the wall. Intel must look back fondly on the days when a die shrink meant going from 90nm to 65nm, easy peazy, smaller dies, faster switching, less power, more profit... bang there you go! Now we will see if Intel is the 800lb Gorilla they have always been. They pulled the proverbial rabbit out of the hat with C2D right when they needed it. Can they do it again?
 
Last edited:
Aug 11, 2008
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That's a lie unless you game at 720p which I don't.

At the resolution I game - 1440p there's a gpu bottleneck and it'll likely stay that way till coffeelake is outdated.

Hell even a sandybridge pulls even with a coffeelake at 1440p. So why should I spend so much money on a sidegrade over say a 1080ti or maybe a 2080 soon..

Maybe you should actually look at some data before calling someone out as a liar. There certainly are differences due to cpu, and one does not have to go to 720p to see it. There *is* this resolution of 1080p. Maybe you have heard of it? Actually it is the most popular gaming resolution. As shown, games are *not* gpu limited at this resolution. And as I said, i5 8400 is faster than *any* ryzen cpu, (14% faster than 1600x). link .
 

Bouowmx

Golden Member
Nov 13, 2016
1,142
550
146
I recall this image:
(no idea how the numbers were derived)
and this article: https://www.anandtech.com/show/9483/intel-skylake-review-6700k-6600k-ddr4-ddr3-ipc-6th-generation/9
Tested at 3 GHz, Skylake has 5.7% more IPC than Haswell in a suite of tests.

I expect 7-10% increase from Skylake to Ice Lake. It's a fair expectation, I believe.

Or will there be a massive shift in how compute is achieved?
That 'massive' (not really) shift for Intel, in the short term, appears to be bigger vectors: AVX-512 in your Cannon Lake and Ice Lake laptop, not just for servers. So you can x265 and Blend faster and more efficiently I suppose.
 
Aug 11, 2008
10,451
642
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I recall this image:
(no idea how the numbers were derived)
and this article: https://www.anandtech.com/show/9483/intel-skylake-review-6700k-6600k-ddr4-ddr3-ipc-6th-generation/9
Tested at 3 GHz, Skylake has 5.7% more IPC than Haswell in a suite of tests.

I expect 7-10% increase from Skylake to Ice Lake. It's a fair expectation, I believe.


That 'massive' (not really) shift for Intel, in the short term, appears to be bigger vectors: AVX-512 in your Cannon Lake and Ice Lake laptop, not just for servers. So you can x265 and Blend faster and more efficiently I suppose.
That Anand test used 2133 memory, if I am reading the article correctly. It would be very interesting to see the test repeated today, with much faster memory.
 
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coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
6,400
12,857
136
That Anand test used 2133 memory, if I am reading the article correctly. It would be very interesting to see the test repeated today, with much faster memory.
They also used 1600 memory for Haswell, so although I support the idea of testing with much faster memory, I wouldn't expect surprising gains except gaming and a few other isolated cases. After all, once you equip Skylake with 3200+ you're also bound to use 2400+ memory on Haswell as well.
 
Mar 10, 2006
11,715
2,012
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I recall this image:
(no idea how the numbers were derived)
and this article: https://www.anandtech.com/show/9483/intel-skylake-review-6700k-6600k-ddr4-ddr3-ipc-6th-generation/9
Tested at 3 GHz, Skylake has 5.7% more IPC than Haswell in a suite of tests.

I expect 7-10% increase from Skylake to Ice Lake. It's a fair expectation, I believe.


That 'massive' (not really) shift for Intel, in the short term, appears to be bigger vectors: AVX-512 in your Cannon Lake and Ice Lake laptop, not just for servers. So you can x265 and Blend faster and more efficiently I suppose.

An alternative way to try to figure out the IPC increase to expect from Ice Lake would be to use not typical IPC increase gen/gen but IPC increase over time.
 

TheELF

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2012
3,993
744
126
Look at Bouowmx's link, which one is the IPC of haswell? the ~2% improvement in 3dpm or the ~35% improvement in dolphin?
IPC is a hardware metric just like vram,do you run a bunch of games to determine how much Vram a card has or do you just look at the specs(number of mem chips x capacity of each) ?
If you try to measure IPC by using software that can't use all available instructions in each cycle then you'r not measuring IPC but something else.
 

Jan Olšan

Senior member
Jan 12, 2017
314
408
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I recall this image:
(no idea how the numbers were derived)
That's a good question actually. Wasn't that in fact from an official marketing material from Intel? I recall people pasting it a lot in the past not including that caveat to prove points, but it could be quite cherry-picked and hence overstating the uplifts (remember how i7-7700K was supposed to raise ST performance by 15% from i7-6700K?)


(Taken ffrom http://www.overclock.net/t/1588749/...-over-excavator-says-lisa-su/10#post_24821616 )
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,785
136
That's a good question actually. Wasn't that in fact from an official marketing material from Intel? I recall people pasting it a lot in the past not including that caveat to prove points, but it could be quite cherry-picked and hence overstating the uplifts (remember how i7-7700K was supposed to raise ST performance by 15% from i7-6700K?)


That claim is fine if you ignore Nehalem. If you take the difference for Nehalem and reduce every other far by it, you close to the same height for each and every one. I assume the IPC gain graph is using server workloads, and Nehalem does a lot on the memory subsystem department, which benefits server substantially.

PC workloads are different. Nehalem as a core was a small change over Penryn, in the range of a Tick. It was more of a system-wide change involving integrated memory controller, QPI, and Hyperthreading.

Look at Bouowmx's link, which one is the IPC of haswell? the ~2% improvement in 3dpm or the ~35% improvement in dolphin?

If you take enough tests, you can get a pretty good average. Average gains are important because they show whether the architecture is truly superior. Based on that graph you can see Haswell is the big jump over everything else.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,785
136
The "doomsayers" are, IMHO, spreading FUD. If Intel can't improve IPC by more than 5% after four years, then they're hopelessly incompetent.

I hope they can do far more than just 7-10%.

They are talking about a mid-2019 Icelake-SP having only 38 cores. They'll be heading off against either a 48 core or a 64 core EPYC. Either way, they'll have to account for the deficiency in lack of increase in cores with performance per core/thread.

If EPYC is 48 cores,

they need a 10% increase in performance core/thread in addition to what AMD will achieve in performance per core/thread.

Considering how high even the server chips clock they are going to need a solid 10% increase architectural level with 5% increase in clocks, if AMD does only 5% improvement in the same metric. And that's just to maintain a slim 10% lead in server they have now!

Really I think they need to do 15-20% gain without the clock increase. The timeline for Icelake is ripe for implementing new ideas since its 5-6 years since the last new idea, which was with Sandy Bridge. But its questionable such new ideas exist that can bring that big of a gain.

The alternative is AMD takes the absolute performance lead in server and we essentially end up with the repeat of the scenario we had with Athlon launch. First few years Intel is ok, but they screw up even more cementing AMD's lead. Which I see it as a possibility too.
 

epsilon84

Golden Member
Aug 29, 2010
1,142
927
136
But you forgot how much more that performance costs. $250 board and $380 cpu vs $70 board and $170 cpu.

Also with gaming its equal since 90% of gamers use a 60 hz display. It's like buying a F1 car for a 60 mph speed limit.

No, I didn't forget anything, in fact I didn't even mention the value aspect of the 1600 at all. I was simply stating that a 9700K would outperform an 8C/16T Ryzen 7 the same way a 8700K outperforms a 6C/12T Ryzen 5, even taking into account the projected 10% improvement from PR.

The value proposition is an entirely different discussion. Apart from your inflated prices for Z370 mobos ($250? Really? ) we don't even know the full range of mobos that will be available when the 9700K is released, so debating value right now is pointless as nobody knows what price the 9700K and competing PR chips will sell for.
 
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Insert_Nickname

Diamond Member
May 6, 2012
4,971
1,692
136
They pulled the proverbial rabbit out of the hat with C2D right when they needed it.

They didn't exactly pull it directly out of the hat. The architecture already existed as Pentium M. What was surprising was just how well it performed on a desktop power level.

Though there were indications. A few desktop boards, and a certain adaptor (CT479) for Asus Socket 478 boards, was produced. I had one of those boards (AOpen i915GMM-HFS). Even limited to 27W the PM still outperformed most P4's...
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,841
5,456
136
I hope they can do far more than just 7-10%.

I could see Intel with Icelake increasing SERVER base clocks by a decent amount, and also implementing MorphCore (or something similar, since they would need 4 threads/core for the Phi). Of course neither of these help client at all. That's sort of the problem with this theoretical 8 core ICL; the 8 core CFL would be better for gaming and even possibly 7 nm Ryzen if it clocks higher than ICL.
 

Hulk

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,375
2,255
136
I think it is getting increasingly difficult to pinpoint IPC with so many new instructions having been added to CPU's over the last 20 years. If a processor without certain instructions is tested against one with support, using software implementing these instructions, then IPC can show a massive increase. On the other hand when comparing strictly legacy code IPC increases are much smaller. The extreme example for legacy software would be CPUmark99. In this case IPC has pretty much stalled since Haswell.

Personally I could care less about performance in Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Outlook, Quickbooks, Coreldraw, and the like. I never wait on the computer even with my old 4770k.

For me it's video editing/transcoding and multitrack audio mixing where I can use the extra compute. Photoshop is kind of in that middle zone where generally my 4770k is fin.
 
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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,808
11,165
136
Look at Bouowmx's link, which one is the IPC of haswell? the ~2% improvement in 3dpm or the ~35% improvement in dolphin?

The answer to your question is, "Yes". It's an aggregate.

I think it is getting increasingly difficult to pinpoint IPC with so many new instructions having been added to CPU's over the last 20 years.

Generally correct, though what is relevant is how those new instructions (or new implementations of old instructions) affect your chosen workloads of interest. Interests also change. Can your system adapt to match your new hobby/job? That's one of the reasons why we have "general purpose" CPUs instead of a collection of fixed-function hardware strapped together. It's nice to have a system that can grow with you.
 
Mar 10, 2006
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I could see Intel with Icelake increasing SERVER base clocks by a decent amount, and also implementing MorphCore (or something similar, since they would need 4 threads/core for the Phi). Of course neither of these help client at all. That's sort of the problem with this theoretical 8 core ICL; the 8 core CFL would be better for gaming and even possibly 7 nm Ryzen if it clocks higher than ICL.

ICL isn't going to underperform any CFL chip in gaming.
 
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Bouowmx

Golden Member
Nov 13, 2016
1,142
550
146
An alternative way to try to figure out the IPC increase to expect from Ice Lake would be to use not typical IPC increase gen/gen but IPC increase over time.

I took Ivy Bridge (April 2012) to Skylake (August 2015).
August 2015 + (August 2015 - April 2012) = December 2018 -> Ice Lake (close enough)

Using AnandTech data:
(13.63/9.17 + 132/111 + 515/432 + 100.5/97.1 + 326.1/314.2 + 79.05/78.94 + 56/47 + 414.8/364.6 + 17.9/14.9 + 1240/962 + 14414/14006)/11 = 1.163

Removing Dolphin benchmark:
(132/111 + 515/432 + 100.5/97.1 + 326.1/314.2 + 79.05/78.94 + 56/47 + 414.8/364.6 + 17.9/14.9 + 1240/962 + 14414/14006)/10 = 1.130
 

IRobot23

Senior member
Jul 3, 2017
601
183
76
This is again Skylake IPC?

Well hopefully pinnacle ridge could hit 4,2-4,3GHz on all cores (6C/12T) and with some IPC ~ 5% (which is possible with optimizing ZEN core) for around 250€.
 

Dayman1225

Golden Member
Aug 14, 2017
1,153
982
146
This is again Skylake IPC?

Well hopefully pinnacle ridge could hit 4,2-4,3GHz on all cores (6C/12T) and with some IPC ~ 5% (which is possible with optimizing ZEN core) for around 250€.

Icelake isn't skylake.
 
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