IDE vs. SCSI reliability

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: Googer

The owners don't know what RAID is, but they are extemely concerned about protecting their data.

(snip)
SCSI has a 1 to 1.2 million mean time before failure
VS
IDE that has much lower 600,000 M.T.B.F.'

Refurbished IDE Drives are a Dime a Dozen.

fixed. If you're going to spew something as ethereal as MTBF, at least don't use FUD.
Cheatahs are rated at 1.2Mh, 'Cudas at 0.6Mh.
No one is arguing that ATA is superior--just that it is not crap, and SCSI is overkill.

(I still think not going with a RAID 1 is asking for trouble though, regardless of the durability of the parts used, or that the main SCSI is already in RAID 1)

 

[Googer]

You sound more like an accountant than an IT Geek. I dont know of one IT worker that is very concerd about cost, they leave that up to the boss and his number crunchers.



http://www.newegg.com/app/View...=22-111-136&depa=1

 

[Googer]

http://www.newegg.com/app/View...=22-111-141&depa=1

you will need at least two of these, and a third or fourth (depending on the raid type) for a standby replacement.

 

[Googer]

fixed. If you're going to spew something as ethereal as MTBF, at least don't use FUD.
Cheatahs are rated at 1.2Mh, 'Cudas at 0.6Mh.
No one is arguing that ATA is superior--just that it is not crap, and SCSI is overkill.

The mtbf varies from model to model and from manufacturer to manufaturer. So my numbers were just the mean.
Scsi is not overkill when it comes to running a buisness. I have seen buisness drop 15k on various types of eqipment and not flinch.
Information technology was never meant to be cheap, if you can't play then get out of the game.

 

[hafa]

One option I've not seen suggested in this thread is the WD raptor 72G drive. It is an enterprise-class drive with TCQ, 10,000RPM rotational speed, a 5-year warrantee and is approximately 1/2 the cost of a SCSI solution. With the savings realized, you'd be able to afford the requisite SATA adaptor and still spend far less.

 

[jose]

SickBeast,

How much drive space do you need ? You already have 2 -18g drives. Will adding 73g suffice ?
Check these prices....
http://www.hypermicro.com/dept.asp?dept_id=06-003

You could add 3 - 18g drives and do raid5 w/ 1 hot spare for about $240 .. That's using the original 2 drives + 3 addl. drives for a total of 73g storage.

A friend of mine has 5 MaxAttach nas devices, these have 4 - ide drives in raid5. They had 7 failures in which one or two hd's failed and broke the raid array.
All they do is store their engineering files on them, no high level traffic stuff.

You should present all viable possibilities to your employer, it's his business that is at risk. Most ppl. here tend to view purchase decisions as if it were their own money, but
you have to look at it from the owners perspective. How important is that data to his business, how much money would it cost him for down time. ie. lost clients, paying workers to sit around while a system is being rebuilt.. etc.

I think most of the ppl. pushing scsi are really trying to give you good advice, not only for you, but also for your employer..

Just take a look at the prices on 18g & 36g hd's, it's really cheap to do raid5 in scsi

Regards,
Jose

 

[0roo0roo]

you are really lucky if you've gone 20 yeares without an ide dying. i've gone through atleast 6 in less then half that.

 

[mechBgon]

Just checking again, since this may not have registered: what operating system is the server using? Not WinNT 4.0 Server, I hope, because AFAIK it is not capable of using a USB anything. Don't paint yourself into a corner here

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: mechBgon
Just checking again, since this may not have registered: what operating system is the server using? Not WinNT 4.0 Server, I hope, because AFAIK it is not capable of using a USB anything. Don't paint yourself into a corner here

It's Windows 2000 Server, sorry, I know you asked me that before.

I'll probably end up getting a firewire card for it; I prefer firewire over USB 2.0 for some strange reason.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Googer
You sound more like an accountant than an IT Geek. I dont know of one IT worker that is very concerd about cost, they leave that up to the boss and his number crunchers.

http://www.newegg.com/app/View...=22-111-136&depa=1

I've been building computers for people based on price/performance for years. I always try to get the best bang for the buck.

We have an annual hardware budget for the firm. How much that is I don't know. The $600 could definately make my life easier if spent on something useful though (I'm actually an intern architect in the firm, and the "IT guy").

IT guys *should* be concerned about cost. It's important in any industry, and especially when you're in a position where you're basically spending someone else's money.

In any event, thanks for the suggestion to give a few proposals. I'll definately do that along with some pros/cons of each.

 

[biostud]

At my work we had 13 out 14 SCSI drives crash when a fire alarm went off, I don't know if the two incidents are connected they just happened at the exactly same time. They even run on different electrical nets.

remember to keep the USB backup in a fireproof closet or another safe place

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
I've been building computers for people based on price/performance for years. I always try to get the best bang for the buck.

We have an annual hardware budget for the firm. How much that is I don't know. The $600 could definately make my life easier if spent on something useful though (I'm actually an intern architect in the firm, and the "IT guy").

IT guys *should* be concerned about cost. It's important in any industry, and especially when you're in a position where you're basically spending someone else's money.

In any event, thanks for the suggestion to give a few proposals. I'll definately do that along with some pros/cons of each.

I agree. If you can get the same work done with less of a budget that the last guy, it will reflect well on you.

 

[Googer]

fixed. If you're going to spew something as ethereal as MTBF, at least don't use FUD.
Cheatahs are rated at 1.2Mh, 'Cudas at 0.6Mh.
No one is arguing that ATA is superior--just that it is not crap, and SCSI is overkill.

The mtbf varies from model to model and from manufacturer to manufaturer. So my numbers were just the mean.

 

[Googer]

IT guys *should* be concerned about cost. It's important in any industry, and especially when you're in a position where you're basically spending someone else's money.

I agree.

But the data that is often stored on a BUISNESS hard drive has a much greater value than the drive itself. It is not worth cutting a corner to save a few dollars. The CO$T and effort that went in to creating those files is 100 times more valuble than the $600 you spend on the SCSI drives. I agree scsi maybe over kill for desktops but is a must have requirement for buisness long and short term storage. Protect your data and other places to cut costs, storage is one area you do not want to have fail on you. Just like my car, I could save a few dollars and get cheap brake pads and parts, but when I need them most they may fail me. An ounce of precention is worh a pound of cure. Brakes and HDD's are two areas that are not worth saving dough on.

If I found out my bank was using IDE drives or some other inferieor technology to store my account information I think I would have to look for another bank. I don't believe I could trust a bank that tried to cut corners in that way. They would loose my buisness.


Also I have seen people drop their USB drives and when they plug them back in they dont work. When I tell them I will cost $3k to get the data recoverd they almost have a heart attack. While great for making personal backups, I think there is a better option than a USB HDD. An iomega rev drive comes to mind, but there are other options like tape and remote off site storage.

Also have you considerd NAS?

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Googer

IT guys *should* be concerned about cost. It's important in any industry, and especially when you're in a position where you're basically spending someone else's money.

I agree.

But the data that is often stored on a BUISNESS hard drive has a much greater value than the drive itself. It is not worth cutting a corner to save a few dollars. The CO$T and effort that went in to creating those files is 100 times more valuble than the $600 you spend on the SCSI drives. I agree scsi maybe over kill for desktops but is a must have requirement for buisness long and short term storage. Protect your data and other places to cut costs, storage is one area you do not want to have fail on you. Just like my car, I could save a few dollars and get cheap brake pads and parts, but when I need them most they may fail me. An ounce of precention is worh a pound of cure. Brakes and HDD's are two areas that are not worth saving dough on.

If I found out my bank was using IDE drives or some other inferieor technology to store my account information I think I would have to look for another bank. I don't believe I could trust a bank that tried to cut corners in that way. They would loose my buisness.


Also I have seen people drop their USB drives and when they plug them back in they dont work. When I tell them I will cost $3k to get the data recoverd they almost have a heart attack. While great for making personal backups, I think there is a better option than a USB HDD. An iomega rev drive comes to mind, but there are other options like tape and remote off site storage.

Also have you considerd NAS?

I'm not familiar with the rev drive or the NAS (aside from the rap artist ). The uber tech told me that a backup solution for the volume of data we will have will be enormously expensive, and thus suggested the USB drive. He was similarly paranoid about ATA drives failing, but still suggested USB external. I'm going to propose a soft case for the USB drive along with possibly a lead bag (if that's even neccessary).

Remote off site storage may be a good option considering the fact that we'll soon have a 10MB/second internet connection.

I'll have to brainstorm for a bit. I'm definately suggesting the USB drive though. It's great in that our data can be brought to any remote location quickly and easily. Typically if you drop a hard drive while it's not spinning, the risk of data loss is minimal (unless you seriously drop it...really hard). My iPod has been dropped quite a few times and has no bad sectors...somewhat of a testament to this.

Googer, you seem to be forgetting that the IDE drive will be mirrored onto the USB drive. You keep suggesting that I'm risking losing data by going with IDE, but in reality there is zero chance of this. The data will be in two locations at all times! That's the rule of thumb I always go by, always keep all data in at least two locations at all times. Generally if you do this, your data is very safe. :beer:

 

[SickBeast]

Googer, I just looked into the rev drive. How is that more reliable than an ATA hard drive?

Do you have any idea how many Zip disks I've had go bad on me? I've lost count and stopped trusting iomega's storage mediums a long time ago. Optical is the way to go. Mall security scanners can corrupt zip disks, and I have a feeling the rev disks as well. I simply don't trust it at this point. Plus it's only 35GB. :thumbsdown: (We have tapes that do 20GB already.)

I also just looked into NAS. Thanks, that's a very interesting solution. Do you have any idea off the top of your head how much a low-end NAS solution goes for? 100GB or so should get us by for now, and really we don't need anything insane like the 4TB solutions that are out there. Just a very basic unit. I've got a serious inkling that it's overkill though and too expensive for us.

Keep in mind that we're an office of 13 when we're busy, not an office of 100-200 that could justify a massive hardware budget and enterprise-class solutions to match. Right now there are maybe 10 of us.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: hafa
One option I've not seen suggested in this thread is the WD raptor 72G drive. It is an enterprise-class drive with TCQ, 10,000RPM rotational speed, a 5-year warrantee and is approximately 1/2 the cost of a SCSI solution. With the savings realized, you'd be able to afford the requisite SATA adaptor and still spend far less.

That may be an option. Since I've already got the SCSI setup I might as well go with it though. IDE is a given, but I have to confirm that there's room in the case and sufficient IDE channels.

The naysayers will still argue that SCSI is more reliable. My issue is more that if I'm going to spend that much, I might as well spend the extra to go with SCSI. Having the drive in the external caddy is convenient, plus SCSI is faster in case we go with Gigabit Ethernet down the line.

If IDE is 1/7th the cost of SCSI it's a no-brainer IMO. When you're going with something that's maybe 1/2 the cost, I'd start to consider justifying going with SCSI.

 

[Googer]

Originally posted by: SickBeast
Googer, I just looked into the rev drive. How is that more reliable than an ATA hard drive?

Do you have any idea how many Zip disks I've had go bad on me? I've lost count and stopped trusting iomega's storage mediums a long time ago. Optical is the way to go. Mall security scanners can corrupt zip disks, and I have a feeling the rev disks as well. I simply don't trust it at this point. Plus it's only 35GB. :thumbsdown: (We have tapes that do 20GB already.)

I also just looked into NAS. Thanks, that's a very interesting solution. Do you have any idea off the top of your head how much a low-end NAS solution goes for? 100GB or so should get us by for now, and really we don't need anything insane like the 4TB solutions that are out there. Just a very basic unit. I've got a serious inkling that it's overkill though and too expensive for us.

Keep in mind that we're an office of 13 when we're busy, not an office of 100-200 that could justify a massive hardware budget and enterprise-class solutions to match. Right now there are maybe 10 of us.

I have not forgoten that you have a usb drive, but I know that the drives inside those usb enclosures are as fragile as your mothers favorite dishes. One small bump can destroy the drive, It happens all of the time. My neighbor across the street lost his that way.

I know the zip disks were junk, but the rev drive is based on existing proven technology and has removable media.

Did you get that link I sent you? It was for a 74gb scsi drive for less than $300.

http://www.newegg.com/app/View...=22-116-134&depa=1

http://www.newegg.com/app/View...=22-141-118&depa=1

NAS is nothing new and can cost anywhere from (USA) $500 to how big is your wallet. I understand that your budget is pennies compaired to Microsoft's annual hardware budget, but data storage is some where you never cut corners on in terms of reliablity.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Googer
Did you get that link I sent you? It was for a 74gb scsi drive for less than $300.

I did, thanks, but I'm in Canada and shipping/customs are brutal here (if the retailer will even ship to Canada, which NewEgg doesn't).

If I can find that drive locally for ~$250CDN I'll jump on it. Thanks, it's a great find.

 

[Googer]

Does your scsi controller use 68pin or 80pin connections?

 

[Googer]

http://www.google.com/froogle?...AP3735NP&scoring=p

What ever you do, never get a refurbished model. Double check and make sure it is new.

 

[Googer]

What if you purchased one on eBAY, I think it could pass customs with out paying a tariff.

this guy has 50 avalable for 214 usd.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...404&category=39975

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Googer
http://www.google.com/froogle?...AP3735NP&scoring=p

What ever you do, never get a refurbished model. Double check and make sure it is new.

That's alot of refurb Fujitsu drives. Maybe that's what my uber tech was referring to...

Honestly I don't like ordering hardware off the 'net unless it's used from the FS/FT forums here, and in that case it's for my own rig.

I need to find a local store that sells these drives. Ebay is a no-go. I don't trust it; too fly-by-night. The only e-tailer that remotely interests me is Monarch. Maybe I'll check them out. I've had too many bad experiences with online computer shopping. The border complicates matters, and NCIX (Canadian site) tends to be overpriced and lacks the instant gratification, price, and selection of Spadina Avenue here in Toronto. :beer:

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: Googer

Originally posted by: SickBeast
Googer, I just looked into the rev drive. How is that more reliable than an ATA hard drive?

Do you have any idea how many Zip disks I've had go bad on me? I've lost count and stopped trusting iomega's storage mediums a long time ago. Optical is the way to go. Mall security scanners can corrupt zip disks, and I have a feeling the rev disks as well. I simply don't trust it at this point. Plus it's only 35GB. :thumbsdown: (We have tapes that do 20GB already.)

I also just looked into NAS. Thanks, that's a very interesting solution. Do you have any idea off the top of your head how much a low-end NAS solution goes for? 100GB or so should get us by for now, and really we don't need anything insane like the 4TB solutions that are out there. Just a very basic unit. I've got a serious inkling that it's overkill though and too expensive for us.

Keep in mind that we're an office of 13 when we're busy, not an office of 100-200 that could justify a massive hardware budget and enterprise-class solutions to match. Right now there are maybe 10 of us.

I have not forgoten that you have a usb drive, but I know that the drives inside those usb enclosures are as fragile as your mothers favorite dishes. One small bump can destroy the drive, It happens all of the time. My neighbor across the street lost his that way.

I know the zip disks were junk, but the rev drive is based on existing proven technology and has removable media.

Did you get that link I sent you? It was for a 74gb scsi drive for less than $300.

http://www.newegg.com/app/View...=22-116-134&depa=1

http://www.newegg.com/app/View...=22-141-118&depa=1

NAS is nothing new and can cost anywhere from (USA) $500 to how big is your wallet. I understand that your budget is pennies compaired to Microsoft's annual hardware budget, but data storage is some where you never cut corners on in terms of reliablity.

Got to agree with Googer completely on this one. External drives aren't crap, but not the best thing if you're going to move them farther than across the server room (say, into a cabinet).

 

[Googer]

Originally posted by: Cerb

Originally posted by: Googer

Originally posted by: SickBeast
Googer, I just looked into the rev drive. How is that more reliable than an ATA hard drive?

Do you have any idea how many Zip disks I've had go bad on me? I've lost count and stopped trusting iomega's storage mediums a long time ago. Optical is the way to go. Mall security scanners can corrupt zip disks, and I have a feeling the rev disks as well. I simply don't trust it at this point. Plus it's only 35GB. :thumbsdown: (We have tapes that do 20GB already.)

I also just looked into NAS. Thanks, that's a very interesting solution. Do you have any idea off the top of your head how much a low-end NAS solution goes for? 100GB or so should get us by for now, and really we don't need anything insane like the 4TB solutions that are out there. Just a very basic unit. I've got a serious inkling that it's overkill though and too expensive for us.

Keep in mind that we're an office of 13 when we're busy, not an office of 100-200 that could justify a massive hardware budget and enterprise-class solutions to match. Right now there are maybe 10 of us.

I have not forgoten that you have a usb drive, but I know that the drives inside those usb enclosures are as fragile as your mothers favorite dishes. One small bump can destroy the drive, It happens all of the time. My neighbor across the street lost his that way.

I know the zip disks were junk, but the rev drive is based on existing proven technology and has removable media.

Did you get that link I sent you? It was for a 74gb scsi drive for less than $300.

http://www.newegg.com/app/View...=22-116-134&depa=1

http://www.newegg.com/app/View...=22-141-118&depa=1

NAS is nothing new and can cost anywhere from (USA) $500 to how big is your wallet. I understand that your budget is pennies compaired to Microsoft's annual hardware budget, but data storage is some where you never cut corners on in terms of reliablity.

Got to agree with Googer completely on this one. External drives aren't crap, but not the best thing if you're going to move them farther than across the server room (say, into a cabinet).

The discs they use in usb drives were ment to be stationary, and were never intended to be used a portable media. Moving them may cause damage. There are specially designed drives for mobile applications (I dont mean note book drives) that are ruggedized for automotive, marine, aviation, etc. they are heavly ruggedized: they can take large temperature extremes, extreme bumps, and g-forces.