If everyone grew up with a particular religion, and believe it to be right...then how is one religion right or wrong?

[Nefrodite]

Everyone always chooses what to believe. This is without exception. However, the ideas people give you may be limited.


not so much. fate weighs heavily on your choice of religion. imagine if you were born an alternate reality where your family was X religion. you would likely be that X religion.



Actually Nephro, the point is that something must be eternal. And, judging from the universe, that something is a designer. (as the fiddle faddle goes.)


course on the other hand perhaps nothing is eternal. its still a cop out arguement since it stops once it doesn't work for the purpose it was intended

 

[her209]

Okay okay... so let's assume that God exists.
Again, assume that man was created by God.

If God created man, then is man flawed since god is perfect?
If man was flawed by god, then can man be held accountable?

/me puts on flame retardent suit.

 

[Beau]

<< Okay okay... so let's assume that God exists. Again, assume that man was created by God. If God created man, then is man flawed since god is perfect? If man was flawed by god, then can man be held accountable? /me puts on flame retardent suit. >>




Or if man is created by god, and if god is perfect, then everything he made would be perfect, so therefore man is perfect


Or if god is created by man, and man is not perfect then.... Now I'm lost

 

[GiGoLo]

<< course gigolo by that intelligent designer theory a super god would have created god and on and on and on... >>


my whole point by that statement was exactly what lebe said. God is the designer of all things and is eternal. We all live in time because we all have a beginning and end. God is eternal meaning no beginning and no end... He is "above" time which is a concept very difficult to conceive



<< If God created man, then is man flawed since god is perfect? >>


this is a difficult topic to discuss because once again, different religions have different views. in the christian world, man is "flawed" because He gave us free will which makes us human instead of robots. we decided what we want and we ultimately pay the consequences for what we do. and also since we have free will, we are manipulated and tempted by sin which God is unscathed by. the only perfect human to ever live was Jesus Christ.



<< If man was flawed by god, then can man be held accountable? >>


if you want to blame God for giving us free will, then knock yourself out. personally i'd rather live in an imperfect world than live among millions of programmed robots who are forced to obey Him and be stripped of our freedom to individuality

 

[lebe0024]

Nephro. You choose what to believe, no matter what. If both of your parents are muslim, and they convince you that islam is the true world-view, then you choose your belief. In fact, EVERYTHING you do, you do it because you want to. You don't believe that God is real? Did someone force that onto you? You believe that the ultimate value in the universe is a green bean? If you believe it, then you choose to believe it. No one in the history of the universe was every truly forced to believe something they didn't want to.

 

[her209]

<< my whole point by that statement was exactly what lebe said. God is the designer of all things and is eternal. We all live in time because we all have a beginning and end. God is eternal meaning no beginning and no end... He is "above" time which is a concept very difficult to conceive. >>



Is he the designer of "bad" too?
God knows the fate of man?



<< this is a difficult topic to discuss because once again, different religions have different views. in the christian world, man is "flawed" because He gave us free will which makes us human instead of robots. we decided what we want and we ultimately pay the consequences for what we do. and also since we have free will, we are manipulated and tempted by sin which God is unscathed by. the only perfect human to ever live was Jesus Christ. >>



Free will is bad? If so, then God has no free will? If he does have free will, then could he ever make a wrong decision?



<< if you want to blame God for giving us free will, then knock yourself out. personally i'd rather live in an imperfect world than live among millions of programmed robots who are forced to obey Him and be stripped of our freedom to individuality. >>



Not sure what you mean here... in other words, is man with or without free will?

 

[joohang]

<< If God created man, then is man flawed since god is perfect?
If man was flawed by god, then can man be held accountable? >>


That is a debatable answer, but a possible answer to that it to look at different religions and cultures.

Generally, Judeo-Christian religions assume the imperfect nature of human beings.

Some other religions, on the other hand, believe that humans have the ability to be perfect, even though they may be imperfect in many ways. Examples of this belief in "perfectability" include Buddhism and the notion of nirvana, Confucianism/Neo-Confucianism and the achievement of Sagehood, etc.

On a related note, check out the following article on Korean religions and the Korean tendency to believe in human perfectability:
Linkie

It's a very interesting read.

 

[JC]

<< You choose what to believe, no matter what. If both of your parents are muslim, and they convince you that islam is the true world-view, then you choose your belief. >>



Most children are taught what the parents believe. Young children don't choose a religion! They don't have the maturity to make an informed decision, nor is it really a big issue for children. Perhaps
older kids/young adults may choose something different than they grew up with, but most children stick with what their parents taught them. It's no different than all the other things that children learn
from their parents.

JC

 

[her209]

<< Nephro. You choose what to believe, no matter what. If both of your parents are muslim, and they convince you that islam is the true world-view, then you choose your belief. In fact, EVERYTHING you do, you do it because you want to. You don't believe that God is real? Did someone force that onto you? You believe that the ultimate value in the universe is a green bean? If you believe it, then you choose to believe it. No one in the history of the universe was every truly forced to believe something they didn't want to. >>



ummm... what about the holy crusades and the pilgrims?

 

[lebe0024]

That doesn't matter. If I am forced at gunpoint to change my beliefs, my actual beliefs don't change no matter what I say to the gunman.

If I threaten to kill you if you don't convert, and you verbally "convert," your conversion is a sham and your beliefs don't change. They only way you believe something is if you choose to believe it. Period.

 

[JC]

Hmmm....but little kids are faced with "if you don't believe in God, you don't go to Heaven, you go to Hell" so chances are they will believe...

 

[Nefrodite]

That doesn't matter. If I am forced at gunpoint to change my beliefs, my actual beliefs don't change no matter what I say to the gunman.

If I threaten to kill you if you don't convert, and you verbally "convert," your conversion is a sham and your beliefs don't change. They only way you believe something is if you choose to believe it. Period.


perhaps so, but eventually it works as shown by the success of colonialism/missionaries. you might harbor doubt in your own mind, but they'll get to your children. and the arguement that you really have a choice is just sad. no one is served up with a buffet of religions to choose from when they hit an age old enough to truely decide. most people don't like defying their parents either.

 

[lebe0024]

But even the idea of hell needs to be believed first. That statement is meaningless unless you believe in eternal judgement. Right? Little children trust their parents, and they trust that what they say is true. They choose to believe in what their parents tell them because they don't know anyone more wonderful then their parents.

You still have the choice to believe if what they told you is true. You can have an infuence on people. That's obvious. But in the end, NO-ONE can will any belief onto anyone else.

Let's use another example. No one ever in the history of the world forced someone to truly love another person. You can't love someone unless you want to. You can't love apart from your will.

 

[her209]

<< That doesn't matter. If I am forced at gunpoint to change my beliefs, my actual beliefs don't change no matter what I say to the gunman.

If I threaten to kill you if you don't convert, and you verbally "convert," your conversion is a sham and your beliefs don't change. They only way you believe something is if you choose to believe it. Period. >>



So then, lets say that I believe that 1+1=3, while everyone else believes that 1+1=2. Every time I see 1+1 on a test, I put 3... then the teacher says, no you are wrong and marks it as wrong. Then say that you teach to your children that 1+1=3 but they go to school and everyone else tells your children that 1+1=2. They notice that they put 3, they are marked wrong. But if they put 2, they are rewarded. Chances are they will most likely put 2 regardless of its legitamcy because they are taught that 2 is right and 3 is wrong.

 

[Mookow]

NART

 

[lebe0024]

<< and the arguement that you really have a choice is just sad >>


I said choices are limited. How can you believe in Jesus if you have never even heard of him? You only believe things that you want to believe. You never believe things that you don't want to believe. I will make this arguement all day long. It's so obvious.
I think the problem is you guys have a much too external view of belief. I don't equate confession with belief.

edit: and if the student forsakes his belief of 1+1=3, he did it because he wanted to. His reason, or his teacher, convinced him, and he chose to believe that 1+1=2. Do any of you not want to believe that 1+1=2? Or that certain music sounds good? Or your beliefs on capital punishment? How about pizza?

 

[her209]

<< I said choices are limited. How can you believe in Jesus if you have never even heard of him? You only believe things that you want to believe. You never believe things that you don't want to believe. I will make this arguement all day long. It's so obvious.
I think the problem is you guys have a much too external view of belief. I don't equate confession with belief. >>



Are you saying that you have all knowledge of all other religions?

 

[lebe0024]

Of course not. That's exactly my point when I say "your choices are limited."

 

[thraashman]

lebe0024

all of your arguments make no sense. I don't think you understand where the concept of choice comes from. the ability to choose in life comes from intelligence. look at lower lifeforms, they act simply on instinct. the smarter, or more intelligent a sentient lifeform is the more likely it is to be able to make a choice. a young child doesn't "choose" to believe in what his parents say. That child knows nothing other than what his parents say. It's similar to baby animals imprinting into their minds who their parents are at birth.

A 3 year old child can't say "oh well, mommy and daddy have told me about this God character, but from what I've heard and read, my parents can't possibly know everything and therefore I should take everything mommy and daddy say with a grain of salt." No that doesn't happen. the parents force into the mind of this child that God exists, and once they are old enough to be intelligent enough to choose, what they believe is etched into their mind. It's like at that point choosing not to breathe. Try it, you can't for too long. Even once you pass out, your body starts breathing again. Or for the previous instance. Try "choosing" to believe that 1 + 1 = 3. you can't do it, I guarantee that no one in this thread can choose to believe that 1 + 1 = 3. Because as long as we've known 1 + 1 = 2. The only way you can change a belief is if you are shown absolute proof.

And I've seen many many thigns that have disproved my younger belief in God. And the reason I saw them as proof when others haven't. I've always been VERY open minded and I think, alot. And any truly thinking person can see that God is a farce.

 

[PistachioByAzul]

how could we possibly conceive that these things come from non-life?

Isn't it easy and arrogant to just say that they can't? What makes us think we have any kind of a grasp on the true nature of life?

 

[PistachioByAzul]

Everyone always chooses what to believe.

Aren't people conditioned to make certain choices? We don't make choices in a vaccum, we are shaped to think a certain way based on our upbringing, and from that we make "choices".

 

[lebe0024]

It's so obvious, it's almost a tautology. Anything you believe, you believe because you want to. You "accept" in your mind as truth.

Mistaken arguements of mine:
People are first presented with all possible beliefs, then they choose the best one. wrong.
People can choose to "believe" anything they want to believe whenever they want no matter what. wrong. Like the man said, I can't believe that 1+1=3, no matter how hard I try. Why? Because I know better, and therefore no matter what, I want to believe otherwise.

Restated arguments of mine:
Whatever you currently believe, you believe it because you want to believe it.
A child believes what his parents tell him because he trusts his parents.

 

[lebe0024]

Engine:
We can definitely be influenced. Even conditioned. We can have conditioned beliefs. In fact, I would argue that all of our beliefs, thinking, actions, etc... are conditioned to some degree, and NONE of them are totally "free." BUT, at the same time, even conditioned, we believe the things we believe because we actively do so. We actively want to believe them.

 

[bandXtrb]

<< Everyone always chooses what to believe. This is without exception. However, the ideas people give you may be limited. >>

Belief is not a choice. People cannot choose to believe something over something else. A belief a person holds is the only possible belief given what he or she knows about the given situation.

I agree with EngineNr, what people can believe is based strongly on their conditioning.

 

[lebe0024]

I admit, "choose" is a poor word. My point is that no one believes something for you. You believe only what you believe. No one believes in islam that doesn't want to believe in islam. No one likes pizza that doesn't want to like pizza. No one believes that God doesn't exists that doesn't want to believe that God doesn't exist. This is so obvious.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. You cannot believe something that you don't want to believe. Whatever you believe, you do so willingly.