If Intel, AMD, Asus, and Gigabyte can build PCs that last 10 years or longer?

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,452
10,120
126
Then why the F can't Sony and Microsoft get their act together and build consoles that last for more than two years? Seriously. That's one reason I haven't been into newer, higher-end consoles. I don't want to spend big bucks on games that I can't use in the future, because my console died, and I can't get a replacement.

I still have my NES, SuperNES, SMS, Genesis, Jaguar, 3DO, etc. They all still work.
I think I still have my (second) PSX.

Sony consoles just don't hold up. It's sad, and inexcusable.
 

Nvidiaguy07

Platinum Member
Feb 22, 2008
2,846
4
81
Think about the technology your getting on those consoles for such a cheap price. most 360's can be sent in if they crap out.

they probably could make consoles that would last, but at a higher price. i'm happy with paying 200 for an xbox that will last 2-3 years (even though i've had mine for a while and still no rrod)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk
 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
472
126
Because things like lead soldering being banned in the EU which means we have to use cheap tin solder which is crap. RRoD and YLoD are both because of crappy solder.
 
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alent1234

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2002
3,915
0
0
A lot of electrOnics in the last decade create a lot of heat. People put these things into tiny home theater furniture slots where they overheat
 

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,752
4,562
136
1. Consoles are much more cramped and have significantly less air space then desktops do. Bleeding edge gaming laptops often have the same problem, even when made by the vendors listed above.

2.Consoles were not nearly as powerful in ratio to how powerful they are today. In the SNES days consoles were a full generation behind PC gaming. They were low end systems designed to make Nintendo / Sega a profit on their hardware right out of the gate. Consoles today are so high end relative for their time that their chips run beastly hot so as to require elaborate means of cooling and their sellers take losses selling them to you at msrp. Most consoles didn't even need a fan or any kind of cooling at all. How much gaming hardware is stable and passively cooled today? Not much that isn't 5 or so years behind the cutting edge.

3.Rushed deadlines/poor layouts. Microsoft was so eager to get their product to market they overlooked how bad an idea it would be to place the sizzling hot gpu directly underneath the disc drive, or how stupid using X clamps to attach the cpu and gpu would be. Sony, their hand forced partly my Microsofts early arrival, shipping a little sooner then they would have wanted also and had some (but fewer) of the many same problems of their own.
 

mmntech

Lifer
Sep 20, 2007
17,504
12
0
RHOS killed electronics. Though it has been a boon to manufacturers who get to see you a new system just as the warranty conveniently expires.

Let's dissect the original Xbox 360. You have two hot processors. PowerPCs from the G5 era were notoriously hot running. Such so that Apple had to use liquid cooling for the PowerMac G5. The Radeon X series were also notoriously hot running. So Microsoft takes two high heat desktop grade components, and shoves them in a box 1/10 the size of a desktop PC. To top it off, the heat sinks and exhaust fans were far too small to adequately cool the system.

The PS3 suffers a similar issue. Instead of using two tiny fans, they went with a massive blower. This moves more air. The cooler has a lot more surface area for air to blow across. However, as crammed as the 360 is, the PS3 is even more tightly packed. It also has the addition of a large internal power supply. This bad boy gets very hot, and heats the surrounding components.

The result is that both are doomed by design. The PS3 will last longer due to its larger cooler, but both will inevitably fail.

Now let's look at a desktop. All the components of even small systems have a relatively large, spacious case. The air inside the case acts as a storage medium for heat. So as air enters the system, it circulates around, warms up slowly, and gets blown out the back. Desktops don't require as many compromises when it comes to the size of fans and coolers either.

Laptops have the same issues but typically aren't run at full bore all the time. It's also worth noting that desktops and laptops are also kept out in the open. Game consoles are usually kept in media centres with other high heat components near by. So they're sucking in air at a higher ambient temperature. That impacts cooling a lot. It's why so many consoles tend to die in the summer.
 

Rifter

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,522
751
126
RoHS solder, plain and simple. Its not like someone is going to lick a fucking circuit board use real solder and all would be well.
 

RampantAndroid

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2004
6,591
3
81
RRoD and YLoD are because of poor design.

No. Thermal cycling solder is known to cause issues, mainly that you can end up shifting the CPU off of the pads, given it's all surface mount.

The main reason that PCs don't have this issue is that GPUs and CPUs are generally through-hole soldered, and NOT surface mount. There's a huge cost difference though, for going with a ZIFF socket, or through hole.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,452
10,120
126
.

The main reason that PCs don't have this issue is that GPUs and CPUs are generally through-hole soldered, and NOT surface mount. There's a huge cost difference though, for going with a ZIFF socket, or through hole.

GPUs are BGA, not through-hole.
 

Nvidiaguy07

Platinum Member
Feb 22, 2008
2,846
4
81
RoHS solder, plain and simple. Its not like someone is going to lick a fucking circuit board use real solder and all would be well.

I think the concern would be that all these electronics would end up in a land fill and the lead in the solder would end up in our water supply.

I can't imagine the tiny amount that they use on these electronics would really have any effect on anything, but i really have no clue.

People throw tons of crap out that they shouldn't anyway. I think a better solution would be to have better programs for disposing and recycling of electronics.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
I think the concern would be that all these electronics would end up in a land fill and the lead in the solder would end up in our water supply.

I can't imagine the tiny amount that they use on these electronics would really have any effect on anything, but i really have no clue.

People throw tons of crap out that they shouldn't anyway. I think a better solution would be to have better programs for disposing and recycling of electronics.

There's a cost in whichever way you go. For the government it's cheaper and better for the companies to pick up the tab. Of course those companies pass it on to the consumers. All the better because people would rather pay for something tangent rather than get taxed and have that tax money go God-knows-where.
 

Soccerman06

Diamond Member
Jul 29, 2004
5,830
5
81
The ps2 I got at launch is the only console Ive had die since my original NES. I replaced it in like 2006 and nothing else has failed.

I own:
GB
GBA
DS lite
Gamegear
Genesis
Saturn
NES
SNES
N64
Dreamcast
PS1
PS2
PS3
Xbox 360

Hmm, now that I think about it, Ive had more pc components fail than consoles.
 

Rifter

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,522
751
126
I think the concern would be that all these electronics would end up in a land fill and the lead in the solder would end up in our water supply.

I can't imagine the tiny amount that they use on these electronics would really have any effect on anything, but i really have no clue.

People throw tons of crap out that they shouldn't anyway. I think a better solution would be to have better programs for disposing and recycling of electronics.

Yeah but it doesnt help with the throw aways either. I know dozens of people who have reflowed electronics(mostly reballing ps3's) to use lead solder and they are just going to toss them in the dump when they are done anyways, so rohs aint heling as much as people would like to think, i know people who run companies on the side doing nothing but reflowing broken electronis to use lead solder.

Sure lots of people wont bother reflowing and will just buy a new console but then you end up with many more whole consols as waste which im sure is worse for the enviorment than a little lead would ever be.

This whole rohs thing is a joke, use lead on all high temp joints and use rohs lead free crap on low temp joints, i really dont see the issue with using the best solder tech for the specified job.
 

RampantAndroid

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2004
6,591
3
81
Yeah but it doesnt help with the throw aways either. I know dozens of people who have reflowed electronics(mostly reballing ps3's) to use lead solder and they are just going to toss them in the dump when they are done anyways, so rohs aint heling as much as people would like to think, i know people who run companies on the side doing nothing but reflowing broken electronis to use lead solder.

Sure lots of people wont bother reflowing and will just buy a new console but then you end up with many more whole consols as waste which im sure is worse for the enviorment than a little lead would ever be.

This whole rohs thing is a joke, use lead on all high temp joints and use rohs lead free crap on low temp joints, i really dont see the issue with using the best solder tech for the specified job.

It isn't a joke when you consider old PC parts, VCRs, DVD players and such. It makes TOTAL sense then. I just wish we could figure out something to use other than lead.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Because things like lead soldering being banned in the EU which means we have to use cheap tin solder which is crap. RRoD and YLoD are both because of crappy solder.
Tin whiskers seems to have been solved quite some time ago, and they were the only, "oh ****," level lead-free problem.

Most P3, Athlon, Athlon XP, P4, etc., PCs are still going strong, with only minor parts replacements occasionally needed, and with the Athlon XP and P4 came ROHS.

It has been more recent big vendor PCs, with rage-inducing cost cutting, that have had the kind of mid-life failures that current consoles are known for, and for basically the same reasons.

Most business laptops from years ago are also still kicking along, generally just needing HDDs, batteries, inverters, video cables, etc., replaced, and most of them are Pb-free.

Most business desktops from several years ago are still going strong, as well, and like the business laptops, tended to go ROHS ASAP, instead of waiting for the final deadlines. I would bet good money that there has a lower failure rate of Thinkcentres and Precisions than of Presarios and Dimensions; likewise the same for Lattitudes and Thinkpads v. Inspirons and Pavillion notebooks; all ROHS compliant.

The thing is, with the above examples, you can just pop them open, and see that the business machines were engineered better: big caps farther from hot components (one reason I didn't use Optiplexes as an example!), more cooling of minor ICs, more caps and VRMs in general, more metal mass to all coolers, less dead space for cooling, more steel structural support pieces, less reliance on plastic tabs for mechanical integrity, and so on.

Lead-free solder is annoying, but it's not like it can't be worked around. OTOH, trying to cut pennies out of the cost of a several-hundred-dollar box, can and will have dire consequences. Lead-free solder joints may indeed fail, but that is a symptom of poor design and/or not testing in realistic environments (early XB360 and PS3s both faced cooling issues related to where real non-techies put them), more than it is the inherent problems with lead-free solder.

Poor cooling in spite of increasing thermal density will increase failure rates.

Power-saving features that exacerbate stresses from heating and cooling cycles will increase failure rates.

Not being paranoid about heat cycles, with fragile lead-free solder, will increase failure rates.

ROHS adds difficulties, but it's the obsession over price points and power consumption over part longevity, that is the root cause of high failure rates.

Nobody likes lead-free solder, but it is being used primarily as a scapegoat. The real problem is that consumers demand more performance in a small package, and want it cheap. They generally do not understand what that cheapness brings with it, over the long haul. If MS and the like get a big message from consumers that they would rather have part quality, and would actually pay for it, chances are that failure rates would drop like a rock, for the next gen consoles.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
8,645
0
76
www.facebook.com
Well, the older consoles might work, but I'm sure their video output looks like crap because the caps can't last 10 years without leaking. Same for the audio.

If I were to buy a Genesis today, it would be used (of course), so the first thing I'd do is go to a professional and have it's encoder and capacitators replaced with the best ones that are compatible.

I do, however, agree with the OP about Sony making non-durable consoles. The Sega Saturn and N64 were in sharp contrast to the PS, at least until the 7501 model came out. The Saturn was well worth the extra $50 dollars ($100 if you bought it with VF).
 

slag

Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
10,473
81
101
The ps2 I got at launch is the only console Ive had die since my original NES. I replaced it in like 2006 and nothing else has failed.

I own:
GB
GBA
DS lite
Gamegear
Genesis
Saturn
NES
SNES
N64
Dreamcast
PS1
PS2
PS3
Xbox 360

Hmm, now that I think about it, Ive had more pc components fail than consoles.

Me too, but they are all in a folder on my pc called "emulators"

 

LOL_Wut_Axel

Diamond Member
Mar 26, 2011
4,310
8
81
Yeah, I don't know what people are whining about here. Some don't seem to even know failure rates.

As far as failures go, the PS3 has about the same failure rate of the Wii, which is very low. You can go on about how everything is badly designed, but the YLOD is something that very, very few people experienced. Then there's the XBOX 360, and we all know how that went. The older white and black versions were notoriously unreliable, and failure rates for those are through the roof. The new glossy black version fixes most of those issues.

As far as the older consoles go, the original PS2 was very reliable, as was the Gamecube and the original XBOX. Then the "Slim" PS2 came mid-cycle, and reliability went down somewhat because it got hotter.

I still have my original PS1 which was bought in 1997 and it works.
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
11,912
2,130
126
Err, yeah - you got me :sneaky:

And that said, I now seem to remember people sticking dead 8800s in the oven and reviving them by reflowing the solder.

That was nV's fault, and is why they took that several hundred million dollar hit on replacements. ATI did not have that issue and they had to abide by the same rules.
 
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