If Plasma is superior to LCD, and cheaper, why is it not selling well?

[LegendKiller]

I think you're missing the point. Some of you would like to think that PQ is all that matters in a TV, but in reality, it's a baseless metric. What matters in the real world is "good enough". Is the LCD TV good enough? Yes. Is the plasma better with PQ, yes. But the LCD is still good enough. You're talking about small differences that, for 95% of users, will not be noticed. Most people buy a TV to watch a show or a movie before bedtime or during lunch, and that's about it. Not everyone sits there and stares at a TV and wants to calibrate it to make it pitch perfect.

And sorry, weight does matter, and it does sell. Even if you move your TV rarely, the lighter one will always be attractive because one day, you will have to move a TV, and you don't want it to be difficult. Not to mention, there's a lot of people buying TVs (think younger, 20s crowd) who have the money to spend on a TV, but don't have the stability of a permanent home. Apartments, college dorms, etc.

And not to mention, the black levels... won't be noticed in the majority of situations. You won't watch TV in dark rooms most of the time, it's usually on in the background while work is being done or near bright windows. In this case, vibrance does matter more.

Also, the burn-in issue and the limited lifetime issue of early plasmas.. that definitely helped to kill. Even if it has "gotten better", the first one in the door is the one that wins. And LCDs got the reliability image first.

PQ isn't everything. Practicality also matters.

Weight is a non-issue for anybody with a rational brain. I have moved about 13 times in the last 12 years and never had an issue with weight. I am not kidding, I have actually moved 13 times in that timeframe. Sometimes it was self-move with a tube TV that weighed 100lbs, other times it was pro movers or self move with a 55"+ tv. None of it matters. If you have a bigger TV, regardless of technology, get somebody to help you move it. How hard is that?

Heck, my wife and I moved our 60" Kuro ourselves from one apartment to the next in the same building. Doesn't matter. Even now I've had to move my Kuro a couple times to position it right and wire it up in our new home. My wife helps me move it around or my brother has.

Further, you aren't moving it all of the time, nor are you typically moving it without help.

Worrying about weight on a TV is akin to worrying about weight for couches. Do you give a shit if you buy a lighter couch even if both were made the same way?

If you're such a girlie-man that you're worrying about lifting your TV once a year without help then I don't have much sympathy for you. Go out and buy a handheld TV and curl that a few times to build some arm strength or go make some friends at a bar.

 

[ImpulsE69]

The easiest answer is some people simply don't care.

The next easiest answer is one from my wife. I don't want to watch tv in the dark.

It doesn't get any easier than that.

 

[poofyhairguy]

The easiest answer is some people simply don't care.

The next easiest answer is one from my wife. I don't want to watch tv in the dark.

It doesn't get any easier than that.

Yeah all these new open concept houses are a plasma nightmare.

 

[poofyhairguy]

Any of you plasma guys had problems with image retention with ESPN/ESPN's BottomLine?

I have a 65 inch sT50 and I am a football fan (even have direct ticket) and no issues.

My Samsung 50 inch had slight IR early in its life.

 

[HeXen]

Worrying about weight on a TV is akin to worrying about weight for couches. Do you give a shit if you buy a lighter couch even if both were made the same way?

When i was young, i used to buy Futon's over a couch so i could take it apart, haul it easily. I used to buy everything that was portable in that regard, stuff i could carry and haul by myself.
But sure, who doesn't want lighter everything if you can get it?

 

[SlitheryDee]

When i was young, i used to buy Futon's over a couch so i could take it apart, haul it easily. I used to buy everything that was portable in that regard, stuff i could carry and haul by myself.
But sure, who doesn't want lighter everything if you can get it?

The difference isn't significant. If you can handle the LCD, you can handle the modern plasma of the same screen size with little effort as well. If one is cheaper and potentially has a better picture in addition to being only negligibly more difficult to move, that one makes the stronger case for me.

 

[LegendKiller]

When i was young, i used to buy Futon's over a couch so i could take it apart, haul it easily. I used to buy everything that was portable in that regard, stuff i could carry and haul by myself.
But sure, who doesn't want lighter everything if you can get it?

You primarily bought a flip and fuck because it was cheap, could be washed, could be taken apart easily and led a double life. That it was lightweight was a function of it being cheap and rudimentary. If that concern was so huge, why not stick to Futons completely? Why even go to a couch when you have a nice house?

Who needs a nice big couch when you can get a cheapass Ikea futon that is light and can be such a nice feature when you try to bring a chick over. "Hey baby, let's go to my pad and make out on my futon" - said no 28 year old guy trying to court a hot chick who wants a successful dude.

 

[wirednuts]

snip

If you're such a girlie-man that you're worrying about lifting your TV once a year without help then I don't have much sympathy for you. Go out and buy a handheld TV and curl that a few times to build some arm strength or go make some friends at a bar.

jeezus dude... its a tv, not a car that protects your life. there is no advantage to having the tv heavier. it moves more then you say for various reasons, and the heavier it is the more likely it will get damaged or do damage.

and there is something to be said about having heavy things in the house/apt. the more you have the worse it gets. how often you roll out the fridge? pull out the stove? i bet its dirty as shit back there.. but it wouldn't be if they weighed 10lbs.

 

[LegendKiller]

jeezus dude... its a tv, not a car that protects your life. there is no advantage to having the tv heavier. it moves more then you say for various reasons, and the heavier it is the more likely it will get damaged or do damage.

and there is something to be said about having heavy things in the house/apt. the more you have the worse it gets. how often you roll out the fridge? pull out the stove? i bet its dirty as shit back there.. but it wouldn't be if they weighed 10lbs.

As I said, I moved 13 times in 12 or so years. There hasn't been once, even when I had a huge tube TV, that I have said "man, when I go buy a new TV, weight is going to be a big factor". Who gives a crap? You move it in, you move it out, it sits there for 365+ days and doesn't move an inch unless I am fooling with wires and then I don't usually lift it anyway, just slide it.

The fridge would still be dirty as shit. You know why? Nobody thinks of looking back there. During those 12 years I live in apartments and despite companies threatening to take your security deposit and them using a fridge as one way to keep it, nobody cleans back there even though they could logically lose $500 by not doing so. Why? Not because its heavy.

But I always clean back there. I guess weight isn't a concern to me, I am not a manlet.

As far as being damaged because of weight, it wouldn't matter if it was my 70lb Kuro or a 50lb LCD, as long as you aren't trying to deadlift either 60" or handle the whole width yourself, it will get damaged the same way. That is, as long as you aren't stupid.

 

[HeXen]

You primarily bought a flip and fuck because it was cheap, could be washed, could be taken apart easily and led a double life. That it was lightweight was a function of it being cheap and rudimentary. If that concern was so huge, why not stick to Futons completely? Why even go to a couch when you have a nice house?

Who needs a nice big couch when you can get a cheapass Ikea futon that is light and can be such a nice feature when you try to bring a chick over. "Hey baby, let's go to my pad and make out on my futon" - said no 28 year old guy trying to court a hot chick who wants a successful dude.

Some futons are anything but cheap. But i didn't have a cheap one, if you paid attention i said i had one back then so i can take it apart and haul it myself...it was far more portable when being in college and living in apartments and i didn't have to rent a U haul to take it with me...you can't be that daft. Why are debating someone's preference, do you not realize how utterly retarded and pointless that is? So why not light weight if that is what someone wants...don't answer that, it would change nothing at all. If i moved much i wouldn't have a large TV nor a large couch, that is just me, deal.

 

[Eug]

It's not the weight per se that's the issue. I've come across a lot of people who marvel at the thinness of the newest LEDs. Plasmas generally are noticeably thicker (and heavier). I personally don't care much though since I have my main TV (which is a plasma) in a cabinet.

The time when weight can matter is when they're mounted on telescoping mounts, although that's a pretty small group.

Also, re: thinness. It kind of reminds me of Apple. I own an iMac, and Apple is obsessed with making the iMacs (and other Macs) thinner, but thinness isn't a big concern for me or even for probably most geeks for iMacs. Consumers love it though, and it sells sh!tloads. Ironically, if we exclude the G4 iMacs, personally I liked the thickest iMacs' form factor - iMac G5 - the most, because those models were user serviceable.

 

[LegendKiller]

Some futons are anything but cheap. But i didn't have a cheap one, if you paid attention i said i had one back then so i can take it apart and haul it myself...it was far more portable when being in college and living in apartments and i didn't have to rent a U haul to take it with me...you can't be that daft. Why are debating someone's preference, do you not realize how utterly retarded and pointless that is? So why not light weight if that is what someone wants...don't answer that, it would change nothing at all. If i moved much i wouldn't have a large TV nor a large couch, that is just me, deal.

So you would buy a TV that you can take apart and has crap quality over one that you can't take apart that has a far better image?

This is exactly what is wrong with marketing, they take apples and organes and try to tell you and apple is better just because it usually has a stem attached.

We aren't talking about a *large* TV, we are talking about weight. A 60" GT is 85lbs. An Aquos LED backlit LCD is 76lbs.

OMFG, it amounts to 2 small bags of sugar. THE HORROR!!!!!!!

If somebody were complaining about that I'd tell them to go to target and buy some weights to improve their manlet arms.

 

[nusyo]

you guys can blame the uneducated customers, sales reps, stupidty etc

I know the difference between the 2 and I will take an LCD over plasma anyday ... it comes down to customer preference (what works best for the customer), location to be displayed (such as LVroom) and what is easy on the eyes (i get faster headakes from watching plasmas over a long period of time than watching on LCDs)

not everybody who buys lcd instead of plasma is stupid .... just saying

 

[reallyscrued]

Feels like I'm stepping into a mine field here; I'll choose my words carefully.

I replaced my 2008 Samsung LN LCD to the 2011 Panasonic U50 Plasma in my sig for my HT/Gaming PC. The main reason were black levels, I do most of my watching in a dark room.

Initially, I missed my Samsung LCD terribly. The sharp, pixel perfect reproduction of any native picture was replaced with this...slightly fuzzier image. I do a lot of browsing on my HTPC and text was no longer perfectly clear. The colors seemed very odd too, the Samsung felt neutral to me, the Panasonic had a green tint to everything, I couldn't put my finger on it. Yeah, the black levels were great, but everything else just seemed odd with the plasma.

Fast forward 1 month, I found an internal service menu to adjust RGB values and get the colors where I like them. I brought contrast and brightness to a perfect level where there is no dithering on solid black, getting rid of the fuzziness. And I've stopped walking up to the screen to inspect the image.

Seriously, the last part is important. exdeath's complaint was my exact complaint. I hated dithering, so I think there needs to be a new metric to whether or not a plasma is right for you: How close will you sit to the screen? If you are closer than 5 feet (any screen size), you will notice dithering and it will turn you off.

 

[BoberFett]

People who viciously defend their consumer products of choice are funny. Their identities are ridiculously wrapped up in their stuff.

 

[alcoholbob]

Same reason why people kept buying Intel CPUs at the beginning of the millenia even though they simultaneously cost more and performed worse than equivalent AMD product: advertising.

 

[iRONic]

I did my part.

 

[Stuka87]

Geeze, this thread is still going back and forth? sheesh....

 

[McWatt]

If you have above average hearing, the buzz on even the quietest models will make a plasma television unusable. Also, the flickering image is unwatchable if you're able to perceive the frequency of the flicker.

 

[reallyscrued]

If you have above average hearing, the buzz on even the quietest models will make a plasma television unusable. Also, the flickering image is unwatchable if you're able to perceive the frequency of the flicker.

These are legitimate complaints. My set does buzz on full white and it's flicker is noticable if you dart your eyes fast on full white. You lose a little, you get a little.

Black levels are not the end-all feature to have unless you're setting around watching the Alien Trilogy all the time (yeah, I'm leaving Resurrection out of this) and is way overplayed by plasma snobs.

There's nothing I can add to this thread that hasn't been said already, but I do think the main reason why it's not selling well is not only marketing, but people like the images they see on their laptops and mobile phones. That is neutral to them, and is what they gravitate toward. A plasma, with its dim lit image and slightly fuzzy reproduction appears inferior in most venues.

 

[purbeast0]

the masses flock to the tvs that they can hang on the wall. as someone else said, the picture is "good enough" for most people. hell i knew TONS and TONS of people, who when HD came out, thought their SD signal stretched to 16:9 was HD. the general consumer just doesn't care and isn't picky like a lot of people on tech forums are.

when i got my projector setup and i was showing my brother the setup for the first time, we were watching a football game. i showed him how i liked one setting over the other because it was more "life like" than the other settings. i then put it on the "normal" setting which appears brighter than the one i like.

he then told me he liked it because it looked brighter and more vibrant. i then went to explain to him how it was raining at the football game so it's not SUPPOSED to look bright and vibrant, it's an overcast day with rain. and my brother is into blurays and stuff so he isn't like a total noob, but to him he just prefers brighter more vibrant colors when watching stuff.

me i prefer more life like colors, which is what the producers of the show/movie want it to be like. and then when you have certain shows that tend to lean towards a certain shade (dexter for example has a very warm picture in general), when you don't have your set calibrated right it can look totally off.

but in the end, it's just a preference.

 

[evident]

the only display that came even close to the quality of my $1025 55inch Panasonic st50 plasma was the top of the line Sony hx750 for 2200. no brainer that plasmas are still the best price performance around

 

[evident]

Any of you plasma guys had problems with image retention with ESPN/ESPN's BottomLine? I'm in the market for a new 55-60" and really intrigued by the Panasonic ST60 coming out soon. I'm just a little apprehensive because I watch a crapload of ESPN and sports broadcasts. Is this even a legitimate concern with a modern quality plasma?

listen, I'll be honest with my plasma experience. I picked up a Panasonic p55st50 plasma a few months back. the first few hundred hours I was a bit paranoid and I ran some burin in slides e and varied my sources etc. then hurricane sandy hit and I had the news on for about 13 hours straight with the channel 10 news logo always at the bottom right of the screen. we lost power for a few days and when I turned the TV back on I noticed rigt away the albeit faded logo still there. I freaked out at first thinking I nmessd up my TV. however all I did was just continue to watch TV normally and after about 4 hours of watching dexter, breaking bad and some movie the logo was completely gone. to this day I haven't had any stuck or burned images. I will also add that I watched a week end worth of March madness NCAA with tons of tickers and logos on for 6-8 hours a day without any issues.

 

[kobyh15]

listen, I'll be honest with my plasma experience. I picked up a Panasonic p55st50 plasma a few months back. the first few hundred hours I was a bit paranoid and I ran some burin in slides e and varied my sources etc. then hurricane sandy hit and I had the news on for about 13 hours straight with the channel 10 news logo always at the bottom right of the screen. we lost power for a few days and when I turned the TV back on I noticed rigt away the albeit faded logo still there. I freaked out at first thinking I nmessd up my TV. however all I did was just continue to watch TV normally and after about 4 hours of watching dexter, breaking bad and some movie the logo was completely gone. to this day I haven't had any stuck or burned images. I will also add that I watched a week end worth of March madness NCAA with tons of tickers and logos on for 6-8 hours a day without any issues.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I'm going to wait until the 2013 models show up in stores and go take a look. I'm still going back and forth.

 

[Kaido]

I think reputation, availability, and thinness.

Plasmas have the rep for burn-in, high power usage, etc. And I see LED LCD's everywhere now, and a lot of them aren't just thin, they're SUPER thin. The consumer perception is that LED TV's are the "hot new thing", so that's what people buy. I think LED-backlit televisions are cool, but once you hang it on your wall, does it really matter how thin it is? Meh. I was checking out the Insignia brand at Best Buy and their regular LCD picture still looks a lot better than their LED LCD picture, but when people see how thin & light they are, and how little power they consume, it's hard to convince them to look at anything else. My main TV is a Mitsubishi DLP, which is about 17" deep. One of the best pictures I've ever seen, and yet I hardly know anyone who has one.