If possible: Forced birth control for those on welfare to stop the next generation of poor

[Commodus]

I am pro-choice, when you are responsible for your own finances. Your body, your money, do what you want.

That clear path out of poverty and education sure would be easier for them if they didnt have children while doing so.

So you're not really pro-choice, then, because you still believe it's okay to forcefully rip a basic aspect of life away from people when they don't fit your criteria of "acceptable."

And here's the thing: even if we bought into your idea, wouldn't it be smarter to fix the economic situation first so that these people actually have a clear way out of welfare (and no, I don't mean "workfare")? It's hard to argue for forced birth control when many welfare recipients don't have a realistic path to work that also lets them raise a child. Hey, you're finally allowed to have children! All you have to do is work 16 hours a day at two minimum wage jobs on the other side of town, guaranteeing that you'll only see your child for an hour. Welfare sucks, but is it "responsible" to work when the jobs that would give you the money to raise a child actually prevent you from raising a child?

This eugenics-disguised-as-responsibility idea comes from a very white, middle-class fantasy of how jobs and child rearing work. That you're going to jump from welfare to making $40,000 a year, and that decent pay always comes from a single job with a 40-hour work week. But that's not what happens in the US -- in many cases, you either can't find work or have to make extreme sacrifices to make it happen. You want living on welfare to be a brief condition, where waiting to have kids is realistic? Raise the minimum wage dramatically, on a federal level, and permanently tie it to inflation. Heavily subsidize college education. Pour much more money into urban schools, and promote the establishment of businesses in those areas. Denying children to welfare recipients doesn't get them out of welfare; education and opportunity do.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Rather than force Birth Control how about spending money on actually educating people? It should include correcting where the education system failed them, motivation to get off assistance but also teach about self-esteem and self-worth as well as explicit education on how their bodies work (there is a lot of misinformation out there).

I would agree with you, but there is problems with that solution as well. The first one is the moral issue, simply put too many people think it is amoral to teach people about how their bodies actually work, others disagree on what age we should teach them the truth, and want to continue to keep people in the dark about reproductive processes until well past the time that they are making choices about those processes.

Finally we have the problem that we have too many educational priorities and are trying to fit them all into the same amount of educational time. The amount of information we are attempting to teach students has increased considerably in the last 70 years, yet we have not really increased the amount of time we spend teaching it to them. The average amount of time spent in school per student in the US is still only 175 days the same it has been since at least 1945. So, while I fully agree that education could help this problem, it mostly just pushed the problem one step further down the road.

 

[nOOky]

No. Never. You're suppressing a fundamental human right. I would rather lead a revolution than let this happen.

People always say that, but why does their fundamental human right always become 100% my financial responsibility, and the tax paying public's when they can reproduce unchecked at will? Give me a box to check on my tax form to not contribute and I'm in.

 

[Younigue]

People always say that, but why does their fundamental human right always become 100% my financial responsibility, and the tax paying public's when they can reproduce unchecked at will? Give me a box to check on my tax form to not contribute and I'm in.

Why must you see it as your money? You live in a society and there are responsibilities involved, some of them you won't like. Of course there should be checks and balances on how the government spends but looking out for your fellow humans is a good thing. No I don't want to see people who can't afford children to continue having children but forcing birth control goes against their rights. What if it were proposed that because people cheat they also must be subjected to mandatory birth control?

 

[ivwshane]

People always say that, but why does their fundamental human right always become 100% my financial responsibility, and the tax paying public's when they can reproduce unchecked at will? Give me a box to check on my tax form to not contribute and I'm in.

Lol, how much, exactly, does your tax dollars go towards welfare of this type?

 

[nOOky]

Lol, how much, exactly, does your tax dollars go towards welfare of this type?

That's not really the point and you know it. The point is rewarding stupid behavior on the public dime.

 

[Puffnstuff]

People always say that, but why does their fundamental human right always become 100% my financial responsibility, and the tax paying public's when they can reproduce unchecked at will? Give me a box to check on my tax form to not contribute and I'm in.

Its kind of like that do you want to contribute to the presidential election campaign checkbox which of course I say no. We should only allow candidates x amount of money to spend forcing them to strategize their spending.

 

[Commodus]

People always say that, but why does their fundamental human right always become 100% my financial responsibility, and the tax paying public's when they can reproduce unchecked at will? Give me a box to check on my tax form to not contribute and I'm in.

So why do you have to pay for the police to watch over neighborhoods where most of the crime is from locals? Why pay to rescue others' burning homes in those times when it was the owner's carelessness at fault? Why pay to educate students who are struggling to pass?

It's simple: because some values are more important than whether or not people are being responsible. In all decent societies, the ability to have and raise a family is paramount, and denying it is considered an oppressive practice (see: eugenics, China's one child policy). It also carries horrific logic: if we're going to deny people the ability to have children because they need welfare, are we also going to deny children to people with low intelligence, so they're not a burden on the school system or the workforce? How about people with genetic conditions, since their kids may be a burden on Medicare when they're older? By your reasoning, those are entirely valid arguments.

 

[nOOky]

So why do you have to pay for the police to watch over neighborhoods where most of the crime is from locals? Why pay to rescue others' burning homes in those times when it was the owner's carelessness at fault? Why pay to educate students who are struggling to pass?

It's simple: because some values are more important than whether or not people are being responsible. In all decent societies, the ability to have and raise a family is paramount, and denying it is considered an oppressive practice (see: eugenics, China's one child policy). It also carries horrific logic: if we're going to deny people the ability to have children because they need welfare, are we also going to deny children to people with low intelligence, so they're not a burden on the school system or the workforce? How about people with genetic conditions, since their kids may be a burden on Medicare when they're older? By your reasoning, those are entirely valid arguments.

First off, I did not agree with the concept of forcing birth control on them, and I didn't specifically say that I do. I said I do not want to reward irresponsible behavior. Having kids out of wedlock isn't an accident, it's a choice. You don't slip and fall down and a penis gets inserted accidentally into your vagina. It doesn't help the situation out when women are screaming from the highest moral ground that they are 100% in control of their bodies and men should have zero say, until, like I said all of a sudden it's 100% my financial responsibility when they have an ooopsy.

But as for your other statements regarding how far it will go, let's consider mental illness as an example. Already this country has kicked mentally ill people to the curb, and it seems to be just fine. It costs a lot of money to treat someone with an identified mental illness, and it doesn't always work, so we just don't do it any more. We all seem to be just fine with that, even though mental illness isn't a choice, but an unwanted pregnancy is.

I do believe we should be doing everything possible to keep people from cranking out these welfare babies in the first place. Birth control should be handed out like candy free in the streets. I don't support forcing birth control on people, people make mistakes, but it's the repeat offenders that have learned the behavior that the more the merrier that bother me, how do you propose we solve this problem, throw more money at it? Where are the fathers and the family members in all of this?

 

[SMOGZINN]

People always say that, but why does their fundamental human right always become 100% my financial responsibility, and the tax paying public's when they can reproduce unchecked at will? Give me a box to check on my tax form to not contribute and I'm in.

It does not become 100% your financial responsibility, it becomes ~1/350,000,000th your responsibility. You are far from the only taxpayer in the US.

And, why is it any of your responsibility at all? Because you want fundamental human rights as well. You remove their fundamental human rights and someone else can remove yours. So, do you like freedom? If so, that is how you maintain it.

 

[bshole]

People should know that kids can turn out bad even if raised with everything given to them, including love.

 

[woolfe9998]

People always say that, but why does their fundamental human right always become 100% my financial responsibility, and the tax paying public's when they can reproduce unchecked at will? Give me a box to check on my tax form to not contribute and I'm in.

I don't like how much money we pour into the military. Can I get a box to check on my tax form to opt out of that as well?

 

[cytg111]

People always say that, but why does their fundamental human right always become 100% my financial responsibility, and the tax paying public's when they can reproduce unchecked at will? Give me a box to check on my tax form to not contribute and I'm in.

You think you are standing on your own? You are standing on the shoulders of the billions of people that came before you, billions and billions have given you the foundation you stand on right now while yelling "I dont wanna share"..
Jesus.

 

[Blackjack200]

It does not become 100% your financial responsibility, it becomes ~1/350,000,000th your responsibility. You are far from the only taxpayer in the US.

And, why is it any of your responsibility at all? Because you want fundamental human rights as well. You remove their fundamental human rights and someone else can remove yours. So, do you like freedom? If so, that is how you maintain it.

You probably composed this before the person you were responding to revealed themselves to a be some kind of mra weirdo.

Having kids out of wedlock isn't an accident, it's a choice. You don't slip and fall down and a penis gets inserted accidentally into your vagina. It doesn't help the situation out when women are screaming from the highest moral ground that they are 100% in control of their bodies and men should have zero say, until, like I said all of a sudden it's 100% my financial responsibility when they have an ooopsy.

Lovely.

 

[Puffnstuff]

People should know that kids can turn out bad even if raised with everything given to them, including love.

While true it does reduce the chances of that happening.

 

[Younigue]

First off, I did not agree with the concept of forcing birth control on them, and I didn't specifically say that I do. I said I do not want to reward irresponsible behavior. Having kids out of wedlock isn't an accident, it's a choice. You don't slip and fall down and a penis gets inserted accidentally into your vagina. It doesn't help the situation out when women are screaming from the highest moral ground that they are 100% in control of their bodies and men should have zero say, until, like I said all of a sudden it's 100% my financial responsibility when they have an ooopsy.

But as for your other statements regarding how far it will go, let's consider mental illness as an example. Already this country has kicked mentally ill people to the curb, and it seems to be just fine. It costs a lot of money to treat someone with an identified mental illness, and it doesn't always work, so we just don't do it any more. We all seem to be just fine with that, even though mental illness isn't a choice, but an unwanted pregnancy is.

I do believe we should be doing everything possible to keep people from cranking out these welfare babies in the first place. Birth control should be handed out like candy free in the streets. I don't support forcing birth control on people, people make mistakes, but it's the repeat offenders that have learned the behavior that the more the merrier that bother me, how do you propose we solve this problem, throw more money at it? Where are the fathers and the family members in all of this?

"When they have an ooopsy" FU*K YOU!

 

[soulcougher73]

I say we just open up a GoFundMe.gov website. You can donate to causes you want. Military, welfare etc. You'd have to let it run a year first to see how much money each category gets. Then the gov can create a spending plan with the allotted funds only. If people want more then they can advertise, educate, campaign etc. for certain things

 

[soulcougher73]

"When they have an ooopsy" FU*K YOU!

Care to elaborate why that you posted matters one bit? You seem awful angry over nothing.

If you need help. "They" refers to people on welfare. You know. The topic at hand.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Care to elaborate why that you posted matters one bit? You seem awful angry over nothing.

If you need help. "They" refers to people on welfare. You know. The topic at hand.

Actually, in context the 'they' there refers to women in general. While he is talking about people on welfare the specific things he said in that rant are not limited by needing welfare. Nothing about needing welfare would change how people get pregnant, or if doing so is a choice or not.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Double post.

 

[soulcougher73]

Actually, in contest the 'they' there refers to women in general. While he is talking about people on welfare the specific things he said in that rant are not limited by needing welfare. Nothing about needing welfare would change how people get pregnant, or if doing so is a choice or not.

Well they are the ones who are pregnant due to their actions, is that correct? Well its always a choice (outside of possibly rape) to get pregnant, and even that you can negate if you are smart. Youd have to be pretty paranoid about getting raped to take BC just because of that, but im sure someone has somewhere. And yes getting pregnant can happen to people not on welfare, but since the discussion of this thread is specifically about people on welfare only, i tried to stay on target.

I just dont think its the right way to go about it, letting a persons freedom to breed trump who has to pay for it. You want a child, you pay for it. Simple as that. (This only applies to people already on welfare). Obviously if you already had children beforehand that a different thing.

It has never once in my life crossed my mind that i should have a child and expect others to pay for it, and myself as well. And if they were taking care of me i sure as hell wouldnt heap more responsibilities onto them. I would expect them to have a lot of say over my life while taking care of me.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Well they are the ones who are pregnant due to their actions, is that correct?

It has been a while since I got my degrees, but when I learned about biology they taught us that it took more then just a women to get pregnant. Also, that it is not a choice, it is one of those things that happens with out conscious decision. Having sex is a choice, but we are not talking about giving them something to reduce their libido. I wonder why that is.

I just dont think its the right way to go about it, letting a persons freedom to breed trump who has to pay for it. You want a child, you pay for it. Simple as that. (This only applies to people already on welfare). Obviously if you already had children beforehand that a different thing.

In theory is sounds like a good idea, but there is a lot of practical problems with eugenics, and that is what we are talking about here. The first, and most basic, one is that there is not, at this time, a really safe and side-effect free form of birth control that can be administered in mass. Things like the aforementioned BC-injection has major enough side effects that every single women I know that has tried it did not do it more than once. In fact the best probable candidate for safe long term (reversible) BC is going to be the Vasalgel injection for men, but I don't see anyone talking about using that.

 

[Younigue]

Care to elaborate why that you posted matters one bit? You seem awful angry over nothing.

If you need help. "They" refers to people on welfare. You know. The topic at hand.

I am angry. It takes two people to get pregnant. How about forced castration for ALL men (because you know, some guys like to play on the wrong side of the tracks). The testicles could be kept on ice so the term temporary can be thrown in there. If a man is with a woman who has multiple children, raw-dogging it is a bad idea. Yeah, I'm mad. Do you think am ooopsy is all the woman's fault? Bullshit!

 

[Younigue]

Care to elaborate why that you posted matters one bit? You seem awful angry over nothing.

If you need help. "They" refers to people on welfare. You know. The topic at hand.

Also, you are a dick for trying to condescend to me and blowing it. "They" is not all it is about but even still I stayed true to the topic at hand. You'd have to be a simple fu*k not to deduce that. But thanks for the help asshole. I'm sure it made you feel clever and witty all while looking like an idiot. That's become far too trendy these days.

 

[ivwshane]

That's not really the point and you know it. The point is rewarding stupid behavior on the public dime.

Then you should be able to tell me how often this happens and quantify how big of a problem this is.