If the "soul" is more than just natural function of the brain...

[So]

Then, can someone explain to me why shocking someone's brain can temporarily change their personality, hitting the brain physically can permanently change it, and application of chemicals (drugs) can mold it in controlled ways?

 

[rezinn]

Who says the soul is a natural function of the brain?

 

[So]

Originally posted by: rezinn
Who says the soul is a natural function of the brain?

Most neurologists? Rather, I'm saying if there is some supernatural soul, rather than simply consciousness emergent from the natural physical functions of the brain.

 

[JohnCU]

everything we do is chemical based. thinking requires energy to flow and electrons to vibrate transporting that energy.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Who says the soul is even a thinking thing? Thought itself could be a purely physical occurrence while the soul, if there is one, is just life force or something.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
Who says the soul is even a thinking thing? Thought itself could be a purely physical occurrence while the soul, if there is one, is just life force or something.

Well, we need a definition of the soul -- I'm thinking the "christian" one -- the supposed nonphysical "you" that lives after death.

 

[shocksyde]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: rezinn
Who says the soul is a natural function of the brain?

Most neurologists? Rather, I'm saying if there is some supernatural soul, rather than simply consciousness emergent from the natural physical functions of the brain.

Uh, no.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: shocksyde

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: rezinn
Who says the soul is a natural function of the brain?

Most neurologists? Rather, I'm saying if there is some supernatural soul, rather than simply consciousness emergent from the natural physical functions of the brain.

Uh, no.

Maybe I'm not being clear, what I'm saying is that most neurologists don't believe in some supernatural soul. How do people who argue there IS such a thing explain "why shocking someone's brain can temporarily change their personality, hitting the brain physically can permanently change it, and application of chemicals (drugs) can mold it in controlled ways" etc.?

Also: the reason I started this thread.
http://www.newscientist.com/ar...s1_head_mg20026793.000

 

[Kadarin]

There is no evidence to support the idea that the soul even exists.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: Kadarin
There is no evidence to support the idea that the soul even exists.

Agreed. But those that assert it -- and granted, they'd need to show positive evidence anyway -- but how do they explain such a simple fact away?

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: So
Then, can someone explain to me why shocking someone's brain can temporarily change their personality, hitting the brain physically can permanently change it, and application of chemicals (drugs) can mold it in controlled ways?

I'm not sure I see the natural connection between "supernatural soul" and personality. Are you suggesting that personality changes therefore mean that a soul cannot exist?

 

[Mr Smiley]

Our memories are apart of our bodies. When you wake up in the morning, how do you know you were not someone else the night before?

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: rezinn
Who says the soul is a natural function of the brain?

Most neurologists? Rather, I'm saying if there is some supernatural soul, rather than simply consciousness emergent from the natural physical functions of the brain.

My neurologist (did spinal surgery for me) is a pastor of a charismatic church - no relation to why I picked him; he was referred to me by my atheist rheumatologist.

It wouldn't surprise me greatly if most neurologists did think the soul is the natural function of the brain, but it kind of would surprise me if there were statistics out there that addressed neurology specifically. Do you have any, for either neurology or the medical profession in general?

 

[DangerAardvark]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: So
Then, can someone explain to me why shocking someone's brain can temporarily change their personality, hitting the brain physically can permanently change it, and application of chemicals (drugs) can mold it in controlled ways?

I'm not sure I see the natural connection between "supernatural soul" and personality. Are you suggesting that personality changes therefore mean that a soul cannot exist?

He means that the only way to even know if someone has a "soul" or consciousness is by interaction with their personality. Yet, said personality is so easily malleable through purely physical means that it seems the simplest explanation, that consciousness is simply an emergent phenomenon of brains. It seems to me that souls are an unnecessary hypothesis.

 

[Shawn]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
Who says the soul is even a thinking thing? Thought itself could be a purely physical occurrence while the soul, if there is one, is just life force or something.

If a soul were to exist this would be it. Our life force may live on, but our memories, thoughts, personailty, etc die with us.

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: So
Then, can someone explain to me why shocking someone's brain can temporarily change their personality, hitting the brain physically can permanently change it, and application of chemicals (drugs) can mold it in controlled ways?

I'm not sure I see the natural connection between "supernatural soul" and personality. Are you suggesting that personality changes therefore mean that a soul cannot exist?

He means that the only way to even know if someone has a "soul" or consciousness is by interaction with their personality. Yet, said personality is so easily malleable through purely physical means that it seems the simplest explanation, that consciousness is simply an emergent phenomenon of brains. It seems to me that souls are an unnecessary hypothesis.

Ah, ok. I would probably disagree with the premise that somebody's personality or mental function reveals anything at all about a soul.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: So
Then, can someone explain to me why shocking someone's brain can temporarily change their personality, hitting the brain physically can permanently change it, and application of chemicals (drugs) can mold it in controlled ways?

I'm not sure I see the natural connection between "supernatural soul" and personality. Are you suggesting that personality changes therefore mean that a soul cannot exist?

He means that the only way to even know if someone has a "soul" or consciousness is by interaction with their personality. Yet, said personality is so easily malleable through purely physical means that it seems the simplest explanation, that consciousness is simply an emergent phenomenon of brains. It seems to me that souls are an unnecessary hypothesis.

Ah, ok. I would probably disagree with the premise that somebody's personality or mental function reveals anything at all about a soul.

That is the crux of my argument.

Now, what is this supposed "soul" if not your personality?

 

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: So
Then, can someone explain to me why shocking someone's brain can temporarily change their personality, hitting the brain physically can permanently change it, and application of chemicals (drugs) can mold it in controlled ways?

Your question answers itself. Because it is a natural function, it can be affected by changing its physical properties.

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: So
Then, can someone explain to me why shocking someone's brain can temporarily change their personality, hitting the brain physically can permanently change it, and application of chemicals (drugs) can mold it in controlled ways?

I'm not sure I see the natural connection between "supernatural soul" and personality. Are you suggesting that personality changes therefore mean that a soul cannot exist?

He means that the only way to even know if someone has a "soul" or consciousness is by interaction with their personality. Yet, said personality is so easily malleable through purely physical means that it seems the simplest explanation, that consciousness is simply an emergent phenomenon of brains. It seems to me that souls are an unnecessary hypothesis.

Ah, ok. I would probably disagree with the premise that somebody's personality or mental function reveals anything at all about a soul.

That is the crux of my argument.

Now, what is this supposed "soul" if not your personality?

I think if you ask ten people that question you'll get twelve answers. So in asking me, I suppose you're asking my personal opinion?

I would say that there's a material world and a spiritual world. Your body exists in the material, your soul exists in the spiritual. My opinion is that your experiences, personality and other things that make you you are part of what bridges the gap. Why do you think what you think? HOW you think is materially-derived, and what you think can be materially-influenced, but the sheer and absolute basis of what you think? If that's completely material, someday science will be able to dictate what you think by materially manipulating your brain. Is that all individuality is?

We know the brain stores information; is that information gone for good if something happens to the brain? Is a person's self gone for good if something happens to the body? I'd posit that the soul is, in part, the self apart from the body, apart from the brain.

In my opinion, there's not going to be a materially-based explanation and definition for something that's not material, so no matter what answer I supply it won't be satisfactory if you're measuring it against material measures. I know that in advance, so it doesn't bother me that my answer falls short of what you're looking for.

There are people who have a (what I would classify as new age-y) belief that the soul is some kind of electrical-related force that stores information apart from the body itself, that the material body restricts access to this for most people. So you could have a personality change but the pre-existing personality would still exist but not be accessible to you. They'd suggest there's a material cause for this; I don't buy that.

[edit] I realize I'm answering the question with supposition and more questions; this is an age-old human debate so I don't think there is a factual easy answer that will emerge from the thread. It's merely one more discussion in a series of discussions that will go one forever.

 

[fishjie]

Originally posted by: So
Then, can someone explain to me why shocking someone's brain can temporarily change their personality, hitting the brain physically can permanently change it, and application of chemicals (drugs) can mold it in controlled ways?

one of the things that shook my faith in college was when i learned about phineas gage and how he turned into a jerkoff whereas before he was a saint after an accident damaged his brain.

years later i finally became an atheist...

 

[DangerAardvark]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: So
Then, can someone explain to me why shocking someone's brain can temporarily change their personality, hitting the brain physically can permanently change it, and application of chemicals (drugs) can mold it in controlled ways?

I'm not sure I see the natural connection between "supernatural soul" and personality. Are you suggesting that personality changes therefore mean that a soul cannot exist?

He means that the only way to even know if someone has a "soul" or consciousness is by interaction with their personality. Yet, said personality is so easily malleable through purely physical means that it seems the simplest explanation, that consciousness is simply an emergent phenomenon of brains. It seems to me that souls are an unnecessary hypothesis.

Ah, ok. I would probably disagree with the premise that somebody's personality or mental function reveals anything at all about a soul.

That is the crux of my argument.

Now, what is this supposed "soul" if not your personality?

I think if you ask ten people that question you'll get twelve answers. So in asking me, I suppose you're asking my personal opinion?

I would say that there's a material world and a spiritual world. Your body exists in the material, your soul exists in the spiritual. My opinion is that your experiences, personality and other things that make you you are part of what bridges the gap. Why do you think what you think? HOW you think is materially-derived, and what you think can be materially-influenced, but the sheer and absolute basis of what you think? If that's completely material, someday science will be able to dictate what you think by materially manipulating your brain. Is that all individuality is?

We know the brain stores information; is that information gone for good if something happens to the brain? Is a person's self gone for good if something happens to the body? I'd posit that the soul is, in part, the self apart from the body, apart from the brain.

In my opinion, there's not going to be a materially-based explanation and definition for something that's not material, so no matter what answer I supply it won't be satisfactory if you're measuring it against material measures. I know that in advance, so it doesn't bother me that my answer falls short of what you're looking for.

There are people who have a (what I would classify as new age-y) belief that the soul is some kind of electrical-related force that stores information apart from the body itself, that the material body restricts access to this for most people. So you could have a personality change but the pre-existing personality would still exist but not be accessible to you. They'd suggest there's a material cause for this; I don't buy that.

We have a word for something which can't be observed and which in no way responds to physical interaction or is necessary to some sort of physical process: imaginary.

 

[Shawn]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: So
Then, can someone explain to me why shocking someone's brain can temporarily change their personality, hitting the brain physically can permanently change it, and application of chemicals (drugs) can mold it in controlled ways?

I'm not sure I see the natural connection between "supernatural soul" and personality. Are you suggesting that personality changes therefore mean that a soul cannot exist?

He means that the only way to even know if someone has a "soul" or consciousness is by interaction with their personality. Yet, said personality is so easily malleable through purely physical means that it seems the simplest explanation, that consciousness is simply an emergent phenomenon of brains. It seems to me that souls are an unnecessary hypothesis.

Ah, ok. I would probably disagree with the premise that somebody's personality or mental function reveals anything at all about a soul.

That is the crux of my argument.

Now, what is this supposed "soul" if not your personality?

Energy

 

[DangerAardvark]

Someone's going to mention quantum mechanics soon. I can sense it with my neurons.

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: So
Then, can someone explain to me why shocking someone's brain can temporarily change their personality, hitting the brain physically can permanently change it, and application of chemicals (drugs) can mold it in controlled ways?

I'm not sure I see the natural connection between "supernatural soul" and personality. Are you suggesting that personality changes therefore mean that a soul cannot exist?

He means that the only way to even know if someone has a "soul" or consciousness is by interaction with their personality. Yet, said personality is so easily malleable through purely physical means that it seems the simplest explanation, that consciousness is simply an emergent phenomenon of brains. It seems to me that souls are an unnecessary hypothesis.

Ah, ok. I would probably disagree with the premise that somebody's personality or mental function reveals anything at all about a soul.

That is the crux of my argument.

Now, what is this supposed "soul" if not your personality?

I think if you ask ten people that question you'll get twelve answers. So in asking me, I suppose you're asking my personal opinion?

I would say that there's a material world and a spiritual world. Your body exists in the material, your soul exists in the spiritual. My opinion is that your experiences, personality and other things that make you you are part of what bridges the gap. Why do you think what you think? HOW you think is materially-derived, and what you think can be materially-influenced, but the sheer and absolute basis of what you think? If that's completely material, someday science will be able to dictate what you think by materially manipulating your brain. Is that all individuality is?

We know the brain stores information; is that information gone for good if something happens to the brain? Is a person's self gone for good if something happens to the body? I'd posit that the soul is, in part, the self apart from the body, apart from the brain.

In my opinion, there's not going to be a materially-based explanation and definition for something that's not material, so no matter what answer I supply it won't be satisfactory if you're measuring it against material measures. I know that in advance, so it doesn't bother me that my answer falls short of what you're looking for.

There are people who have a (what I would classify as new age-y) belief that the soul is some kind of electrical-related force that stores information apart from the body itself, that the material body restricts access to this for most people. So you could have a personality change but the pre-existing personality would still exist but not be accessible to you. They'd suggest there's a material cause for this; I don't buy that.

We have a word for something which can't be observed and which in no way responds to physical interaction or is necessary to some sort of physical process: imaginary.

Very timebound perspective; throughout history there have been things we've been incapable of manipulating physically. Gravity is a great example. That didn't make it imaginary, it just meant we weren't sufficiently developed to manipulate it. It's possible that's the case here.

It's also possible that there's something that exists beyond the material world. Take the universe as an example. There was a big bang - what did it bang into? Everything material exists inside the universe; what's outside? It's not material, not as we define material. There are edges to the universe; what's on the other side?

I'm not suggesting the spiritual world is on the other side of the universe edge. I'm simply pointing out that simply because we can't manipulate it physically, or observe it materially, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Doesn't mean it does, but doesn't mean it doesn't.

Be careful of a statement of fact in areas like this. Things may be as simplistic as you state, but it's no shame to consider that they might not be; millions of people, including great minds, have grappled their whole lives with the same questions.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

The soul is not something you have. It is what you are.

That is all.