If there was nothing before God created the universe then how do you explain this?

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SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
Matter expanded at faster than the speed of light for many moments after the big bang.
Why did it bang, why did it disobey physics.

Go dissect a human body. You're insane if it doesn't change you into believing in SOME higher power. Too complex.

Let's talk about how the valve in the giraffe shunts blood flow at the top of its neck when he berms his head down to eat. Yeah go ahead and tell me that evolved. Way too complex to just happen by mutation.


Missed this thread earlier. I disagree with you, I don't see how the complexity of our body equates to the existence of god. There are so many ways to die, we are fragile, the universe could wipe us out at any time (and has wiped out lots of life in the past, changing the course of life on the planet), we have so many limitations. Remember, these things happen over millions, even billions of years.

While the human body is amazing, I just can't see that meaning there has to be a god.

What do you thnink about something like this?

(Giraffe dissection)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW2rVkod2VU
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
Missed this thread earlier. I disagree with you, I don't see how the complexity of our body equates to the existence of god. There are so many ways to die, we are fragile, the universe could wipe us out at any time (and has wiped out lots of life in the past, changing the course of life on the planet), we have so many limitations. Remember, these things happen over millions, even billions of years.

While the human body is amazing, I just can't see that meaning there has to be a god.

What do you thnink about something like this?

(Giraffe dissection)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW2rVkod2VU

Great explanatory video; I'll never look at giraffes the same way again.

But the ad for Poo-Pouri before the video: Priceless! 10/10
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
126
Missed this thread earlier. I disagree with you, I don't see how the complexity of our body equates to the existence of god. There are so many ways to die, we are fragile, the universe could wipe us out at any time (and has wiped out lots of life in the past, changing the course of life on the planet), we have so many limitations. Remember, these things happen over millions, even billions of years.

While the human body is amazing, I just can't see that meaning there has to be a god.

What do you thnink about something like this?

(Giraffe dissection)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW2rVkod2VU

http://www.weloennig.de/LaryngealNerve.pdf
Paper title:
The Laryngeal Nerve of the Giraffe: Does it Prove Evolution?

answer:

No.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
http://www.weloennig.de/LaryngealNerve.pdf
Paper title:
The Laryngeal Nerve of the Giraffe: Does it Prove Evolution?

answer:

No.


Does it prove intelligent design or god exists?

answer:

No.


The point of me posting that clip wasn't to prove evolution. It was to show that there are some oddities in life, even complex life, that would suggest something more random than an all powerful being who created or designed us.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
126
Does it prove intelligent design or god exists?

answer:

No.


The point of me posting that clip wasn't to prove evolution. It was to show that there are some oddities in life, even complex life, that would suggest something more random than an all powerful being who created or designed us.

And that point may well be made in error.

Evolution is already a fact, it doesn't have to be proven anymore.

Yep, I agree.
 

mrcharles

Member
Oct 26, 2014
27
0
0
the questions is wrong. When a question is asked in hopes of gaining a logical answer, the question itself has to be logical, otherwise, you don't receive a correct answer. and why ask a question if you don't want a truthful answer.
 

elitejp

Golden Member
Jan 2, 2010
1,080
20
81
I forget in the bible where it says but it is new testament John I think said:
In the beginning darkness was over the surface of the deep and the Spirit of God hovered over the waters.
I can't remember the rest of it but it implies that there was something there before God said"Fiat Lux"("Let there be light").
I think that there just might be something to the the big crunch.
The Bible goes into very little discussion about the creation of the universe or how this world works. However the things it has discussed have all been proved by science to be accurate.

The Bible however does describe life before Genisis 1:2 where God begins recreating the earth as we know it today. Finnis Jennings Dake gives a very good account of this when he explains the pre-adamic race. Im sure other Bible scholars explain it well but I like Finnis.
The essence of it is that the earth as we see it now was recreated and that happened within a 6 day time frame. Gen 1:1 only gives mention that the earth was here and has been here for a uncertain amount of time(which is just saying the Bible didnt tell us, not that God doesnt know) and other passages in the Bible indicate human life and animal life. Given this information the Bible never says the earth is 6000yrs old, even though many preachers may say otherwise, but rather idicates that this earth could be very very old inlcuding the evrything else out there. And this very much coincides with what science is currently proving with fossil records and what we see in the universe.
 

Caveman

Platinum Member
Nov 18, 1999
2,532
33
91
To answer the OPs post...

There are really 3 "beginnings" spoken of in the bible.

1) Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

This is the oldest beginning. How long ago it happened is assumed to be infinite. In Hebrew, it comes across as an "eternity ago", before the physical part of the universe...

2) Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

This is the 2nd oldest beginning. This is assumed to be ~4.5 Billion years ago... or whatever the prevailing thought is regarding the age of the earth. However old the record shows, that must be when it was created.

3) Gen 1:2  The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

This is the 3rd beginning, a restoration of something already there. Based on traceable genealogies, this is assumed to have happened approximately 6000 years ago. What was originally created had become without form and void (destroyed, chaotic).

Mainstream Christianity is completely out in left field. These verses, like many others, simply prove that science doesn't stand in the way of biblical accuracy; the opposite can also be said.

 
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
To answer the OPs post...

There are really 3 "beginnings" spoken of in the bible.

1) Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

This is the oldest beginning. How long ago it happened is assumed to be infinite. In Hebrew, it comes across as an "eternity ago", before the physical part of the universe...

2) Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

This is the 2nd oldest beginning. This is assumed to be ~4.5 Billion years ago... or whatever the prevailing thought is regarding the age of the earth. However old the record shows, that must be when it was created.

3) Gen 1:2  The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

This is the 3rd beginning, a restoration of something already there. Based on traceable genealogies, this is assumed to have happened approximately 6000 years ago. What was originally created had become without form and void (destroyed, chaotic).

Mainstream Christianity is completely out in left field. These verses, like many others, simply prove that science doesn't stand in the way of biblical accuracy; the opposite can also be said.

 

All anthropomorphic explanations of the world are suspect if you ever study physics, or really any of the hard sciences well enough. What you'll is that out of ego & ignorance we explain everything in simple visible terms that somewhat evolved plains apes can understand. For some perspective, imagine explanations of the world in a children's book; kids really do believe that's how things are.
 

Caveman

Platinum Member
Nov 18, 1999
2,532
33
91
All anthropomorphic explanations of the world are suspect if you ever study physics, or really any of the hard sciences well enough. What you'll is that out of ego & ignorance we explain everything in simple visible terms that somewhat evolved plains apes can understand. For some perspective, imagine explanations of the world in a children's book; kids really do believe that's how things are.

Apologies if English is a second language for you. I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't think you understood the post you responded to...
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
Apologies if English is a second language for you. I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't think you understood the post you responded to...

The bible and such are anthropomorphic narratives of the world, meaning written by humans to be easily read by humans. Studying science at an appreciable level reveals that the world isn't really what our senses & cognitive facilities readily reveal it to be. Some might lack this perspective, thus the analogy of graduating from children's books to adult lit to help illustrate what science advancement has been like.
 

cbrunny

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 2007
6,791
406
126
I think there was an episode of star trek that had something to do with the big bang.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
This is an explanation of the terms light and darkness. The Bible is often confusing because how is there light without the sun and the stars and the moon? This is actually the first time I have read this talk given by N. Eldon Tanner, entitles "The Light of the Gospel", from the October 1977 Ensign Magazine, published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS). In the LDS version of the King James version of the Bible there is a foot-note for the word "Create" as follows:

HEB shaped, fashioned, created; always divine activity; see Abr. 4:1, organized, formed. TG Creation; God, Creator.

The word we can understand is Organized or formed. This implies something was made from something else by some process. i.e. elements and or chemistry, genetics, etc.

Genesis talks about making the Heaven and the Earth. Heaven was made from the Earth.

Genesis 1:1
The first words of the Bible are:

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

“And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

“And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

“And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.” (Gen. 1:1–4.)

We note from this scripture that God knew there must be light, for light was good, and he divided the light from the darkness.

Why did God say, “Let there be light”?

First of all, we must establish just what light is. How would you define it? Too often we take for granted some seemingly commonplace things, but we cannot define them. The term light has several meanings in science and philosophy, but for simplification we will concentrate on Webster’s ideological definition, which calls it something that makes vision possible, or spiritual illumination.

Though scientists vary in their understanding of the nature of the substance of light, they do say that all energy has its origin in light (mostly from the sun).

We know that without physical light we cannot see the things around us or even where we are going; and without spiritual light we cannot have knowledge or understanding. We should note that many who cannot see with their physical eyes are not left in darkness, because they have the same opportunity as others for enlightening their minds through spiritual illumination.

Darkness is described as a condition devoid of light; not receiving, reflecting, transmitting, or radiating light; not clear to the understanding; or showing evil traits and desires. Complete darkness, then, would be the absence of light and truth and thus would not exist in intelligence.

Let us further clarify these meanings by referring to the scriptures.

We read in John: “Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.” (John 8:12.)

Jesus also said, referring to himself as the Son of God:

“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

“For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

“But he that doeth truth cometh to the light.” (John 3:18–21.)

Isaiah foretold the apostasy and the darkness which would cover the earth and the people. He said:

“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

“Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate.” (Isa. 24:5–6.)

“For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.” (Isa. 60:2.)

This period of the apostasy was known as the Dark Ages because the light of the gospel was withdrawn from the earth.

More recently, in modern revelation, the Lord has declared: “And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel.” (D&C 45:28.)

We are encouraged to remain faithful through a promise of increased light and knowledge, for He said:

“That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day.” (D&C 50:24.)

“And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.” (D&C 88:67.)

How glorious and how desirable! Who would not want to strive for such a blessing? Consider the following description of the Son of God:

“He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth;

“Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.

“… and is the light of the moon, …

“As also the light of the stars, …

“And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.

“And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;

“Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—

“The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.” (D&C 88:6–13.)

Reference has been made to the apostasy in the so-called Dark Ages. The Old Testament prophets repeatedly foretold the great apostasy and referred to a darkness that would cover the earth and the people. From the scriptures cited it is evident that only through the Spirit of Christ can we be enlightened and comprehend truth and that when the gospel was withdrawn from the earth, the progress of man was retarded. Since the restoration of the gospel, and the investiture once again of the power of God as given to man through the priesthood of God, it is remarkable to note the advances in all fields of learning. All truth is discerned through the Spirit of Truth or the Light of Christ, as the following scripture verifies:

“For the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is light, and whatsoever is light is Spirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ.” (D&C 84:45.)

While our Savior was enduring the agony of the crucifixion, there was darkness upon the face of the land. Luke records:

“And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.

“And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

“And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.” (Luke 23:44–46.)

At this same time the inhabitants on the American Continent were awaiting the events which their prophets had foretold concerning the crucifixion of the Lord. At the appointed time the signs and wonders appeared, and there were storms and tempests and lightnings such as had never been known; and great and terrible destruction changed the whole face of the land, after which there was thick darkness for the space of three days:

“There could be no light, because of the darkness, neither candles, neither torches; neither could there be fire kindled with their fine and exceedingly dry wood, so that there could not be any light at all;

“And there was not any light seen, neither fire, nor glimmer, neither the sun, nor the moon, nor the stars, for so great were the mists of darkness which were upon the face of the land.” (3 Ne. 8:21–22.)

The darkness was dispelled by the appearance of the resurrected Lord, who came to visit his “other sheep” referred to in John when he said:

“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” (John 10:16.)

We find further powerful evidence of the contrast between light and darkness in connection with the First Vision of Joseph Smith in preparation for the restoration of the gospel. In earnestly seeking to know which church to join, he came upon this passage of scripture in James which reads:

“If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.” (James 1:5.)

This he determined to do and retired to the woods to make the attempt. I read from his account and call your attention to the references to darkness and light:

“After I had retired to the place where I had previously designed to go, … I kneeled down and began to offer up the desire of my heart to God. I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak. Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.

“But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction—not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being—just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

“It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!” (JS—H 1:15–17; selected italics added.)

Joseph was told to join none of the existing churches. He followed this instruction and continued to pursue his “common vocations in life” until he felt compelled (some four years later) to seek again for guidance and, to quote from his own account, “forgiveness of all my sins and follies, and also for a manifestation to me, that I might know of my state and standing before him; for I had full confidence in obtaining a divine manifestation, as I previously had one.”

He relates: “While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, I discovered a lightappearing in my room, which continued to increase until the room was lighter than at noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at my bedside, standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor.

“… his whole person was glorious beyond description, and his countenance truly like lightning. The room was exceedingly light, but not so very bright as immediately around his person. When I first looked upon him, I was afraid; but the fear soon left me.” (JS—H 1:27, 29–30, 32; italics added.)

This personage was the angel Moroni, and he delivered a message concerning the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was to be translated. That event heralded the restoration of the gospel (also foretold by Old and New Testament prophets) and the additional light and knowledge which men can enjoy through acceptance of the teachings of Jesus Christ, and through the influence of the priesthood of God, which is the power of God given to men to act in his name.

Every individual has the right to and can have the Light of Christ in his life as an abiding influence. But he must earn that privilege and blessing. Each of us must so live as to be worthy for the blessings of the Lord to attend us. This means we must know and understand and keep his commandments. Through the saving principles of the gospel, we can use the light in our lives to dispel the darkness in the world and to thwart the plans of that Prince of Darkness, even Satan, who has vowed to destroy mankind and the glorious plan of life and salvation authored by God and his Son Jesus Christ.

We have a prophet of God upon the earth today, even Spencer W. Kimball, through whom God speaks to man just as he did in former days, and as we accept his counsel, we will receive further light and knowledge.

Parents have a particular responsibility to teach their children the importance of following the light and avoiding the darkness. This applies to both their spiritual and physical surroundings. It is a fact that most evil is perpetrated under the cover of darkness. The Lord has warned:

“And again, inasmuch as parents have children in Zion, or in any of her stakes which are organized, that teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ the Son of the living God, and of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands when eight years old, the sin be upon the heads of the parents.

“And they shall also teach their children to pray, and to walk uprightly before the Lord.” (D&C 68:25, 28.)

Our sons and daughters should know that they are actually spirit children of God and that he loves them and wants them to succeed and be happy. He will give to each of us, as he did to Joseph Smith and as he has done for his children from Adam until the present time, an answer to our prayers, the comforting influence of the Holy Ghost, and the light and knowledge we need to keep us from stumbling into the darkness.

A recently composed musical play (My Turn on Earth) by Carol Lynn Pearson and Lex De Azevedo has a very sweet little song with great appeal. It is entitled “Look for the Little Light” (p. 30) and has this message:

When it’s hard to tell what’s wrong and what’s right,

When it’s hard to know what to do,

When the way looks dark and you’re stumbling around,

Here’s a word for you.

Look for that bright little, right little light inside,

Growin’ brighter day by day.

It’ll show you the road that you should take,

And it will never grow dim.

Just keep in touch with your Father above,

’Cause it was lit by him.

We have the gospel in its fulness. We are continually being warned to walk by the light of the gospel, living and teaching it to all the world; and the Lord has said:

“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.” (Matt. 5:16.)

May each of us so live that through our works of righteousness, and with the light of Christ in our lives, we may contribute to and see the dawning of a brighter day in a dark and troubled world, I pray in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
 
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