If there's a glut of lawyers, then why are lawyer prices so high?

[SP33Demon]

It hasn't happened yet but it will eventually. Now that we're in the information age, I'm sure someone will soon streamline the process electronically where you can do it yourself or have a company do it super cheap. For example, formalizing divorce documents/filings or creating a will. People shouldn't be making 100-200/hr as glorified secretaries who simply type someone's name into a blanked out part of a document and mail it. Soon it will be just as easy as TurboTax for simple shit.

 

[Jeeebus]

It hasn't happened yet but it will eventually. Now that we're in the information age, I'm sure someone will soon streamline the process electronically where you can do it yourself or have a company do it super cheap. For example, formalizing divorce documents/filings or creating a will. People shouldn't be making 100-200/hr as glorified secretaries who simply type someone's name into a blanked out part of a document and mail it. Soon it will be just as easy as TurboTax for simple shit.

Errmmm - most people that do wills or other simple corporate formation documents generally charge a flat fee for the task. I've seen $500 flat fee for wills, $1000 flat fee for setting up a new LLC (including filing fees of roughly $200) - most of that "simple" stuff is not billed by the hour as it is. For me, I generally only charge hourly as most of my cases are complex business litigation cases that could last a month or several years, require motions, legal research, depositions, trial, etc. Very difficult to agree on a reasonable flat fee in those circumstances.

 

[dn7309]

It hasn't happened yet but it will eventually. Now that we're in the information age, I'm sure someone will soon streamline the process electronically where you can do it yourself or have a company do it super cheap. For example, formalizing divorce documents/filings or creating a will. People shouldn't be making 100-200/hr as glorified secretaries who simply type someone's name into a blanked out part of a document and mail it. Soon it will be just as easy as TurboTax for simple shit.

Pre-paid Legal is suppose to be the answer to overpriced Lawyers. I remember was dragged to the their sales pitch to become one of their team member that sell service (it was a pyramid scam). It sound good in practice but I have yet find anyone that used their service and say they love it.

 

[Clemenza]

Errmmm - most people that do wills or other simple corporate formation documents generally charge a flat fee for the task. I've seen $500 flat fee for wills, $1000 flat fee for setting up a new LLC (including filing fees of roughly $200) - most of that "simple" stuff is not billed by the hour as it is. For me, I generally only charge hourly as most of my cases are complex business litigation cases that could last a month or several years, require motions, legal research, depositions, trial, etc. Very difficult to agree on a reasonable flat fee in those circumstances.

This. I usually charged a flat fee for most of my services. Wills, simple divorces and most criminal defense cases don't require an hourly rate. More complex cases that stretch on for long periods of time do. I don't think I ever charged hourly except for the appointed cases that I took from the state and those were billed hourly at a statutory rate of 40.00 an hour and capped at a certain amount.

 

[poofyhairguy]

why isn't there a walmart of law firms

Um,

 

[SP33Demon]

Errmmm - most people that do wills or other simple corporate formation documents generally charge a flat fee for the task. I've seen $500 flat fee for wills, $1000 flat fee for setting up a new LLC (including filing fees of roughly $200) - most of that "simple" stuff is not billed by the hour as it is. For me, I generally only charge hourly as most of my cases are complex business litigation cases that could last a month or several years, require motions, legal research, depositions, trial, etc. Very difficult to agree on a reasonable flat fee in those circumstances.

Yeah, it may be but I remember a lady I was dating who was divorcing her husband ended up paying hourly. She was pissed b/c the lawyer kept charging her for extra/stupid shit like forgetting to ask her to sign the document before sending it. What should have been a cheap task for under $100 ended up costing her around $200-$300. All of that will hopefully be streamlined in a cheap software package for $25-$75.

 

[Markbnj]

Yeah, it may be but I remember a lady I was dating who was divorcing her husband ended up paying hourly. She was pissed b/c the lawyer kept charging her for extra/stupid shit like forgetting to ask her to sign the document before sending it. What should have been a cheap task for under $100 ended up costing her around $200-$300. All of that will hopefully be streamlined in a cheap software package for $25-$75.

I assume you know this was an amicable divorce and the agreements a mere formality, because breaking up a marriage and disentangling all the assets, liabilities, and responsibilities can be damn complicated.

 

[Thump553]

Doing well thus far. Temporarily holding my breath on a client that owes me $30k but is teetering on filing bankruptcy. Needless to say, it would be nice if I got paid before that happened.

I hate to be the bearer of distressing news, but you may want to look up the rule of preferences in bankruptcy. When that gets you depressed enough look at the rule for insiders-a one year look back period. Good luck, $30k is a lot of money-no way I'd carry any client that much.

 

[alkemyst]

Do you think they're really worth 40% on a personal injury?

What do you specialize in?

Not all personal injury cases are won and the lawyer's put up the costs up front.

To go after a workman's comp injury here the costs are about $150k to the firm.

Sadly, that makes small cases not worth taking on for them.

For every lawyer making $200K+ a year, you have 20+ working as 'clerks' for $30-40K.

 

[Jeeebus]

I hate to be the bearer of distressing news, but you may want to look up the rule of preferences in bankruptcy. When that gets you depressed enough look at the rule for insiders-a one year look back period. Good luck, $30k is a lot of money-no way I'd carry any client that much.

I do my fair share of bankruptcy litigation, so yes, well aware of preference and fraudulent transfer actions. As I always advise my clients that are potential preference defendants, possession is 9/10 of the law, bird in the hand better than two in the bush, etc. - point being that if you have the choice of getting the money now and possibly facing a lawsuit later, always take the money now. In my case, I'm not particularly worried about a preference as all payments to me have been made in the ordinary course and pursuant to the terms of our engagement letter. Always a risk, but I'd rather deal with the risk while having $30k in the bank.

 

[CptObvious]

You may be able find an unemployed new attorney or 4th tier law grad to take your case on the cheap, but like almost anything, you often get what you pay for.

As for why there isn't a big 'Walmart' type employer for lawyers, the fact is there is a huge demand for legal services from the low-income population but they can't afford to pay any meaningful amount to support even basic salaries. And unlike medicine, the government isn't subsidizing a huge money pit with the legal equivalent of Medicare/Medicaid.

 

[Corporate Thug]

Um,

legal zoom is not a law firm. they do not give legal advise. they are facilitators for filing paperwork for various things.

 

[Corporate Thug]

You may be able find an unemployed new attorney or 4th tier law grad to take your case on the cheap, but like almost anything, you often get what you pay for.

As for why there isn't a big 'Walmart' type employer for lawyers, the fact is there is a huge demand for legal services from the low-income population but they can't afford to pay any meaningful amount to support even basic salaries. And unlike medicine, the government isn't subsidizing a huge money pit with the legal equivalent of Medicare/Medicaid.

The problem is a large part of any settlement is based on your opponent. it is unlikely that you will get a favorable settlement if the other side does not fear/respect your attorney.

I'd rather have the best attorney handling a shit case rather than a shit attorney handling the best case.

 

[Imp]

Probably has something to do with tuition.

I seriously looked into becoming a lawyer and was very turned off by the tuition in my "state". Cheapest, no-name schools in small towns would set me back about $100k after including living expenses -- conveniently ignoring the opportunity cost of a regular job, even at minimum wage. I believe I need 3 years of undergrad to apply to law school here. If I were >$100k in debt, I would leave the field unless I got a well paying job. That may partly explain the price floor.

Make law a cheap, BA type degree and prices would probably drop -- fat chance considering how lucrative it is for schools and successful lawyers.

 

[CptObvious]

As for prepaid legal, the fact is a lot of simpler processes can be handled pro se by anyone who's somewhat intelligent and has Google. Lawyers have to specialize to make it in this economy. In my first gig after law school, I was sent to do some small claims cases to get practice. There are attorneys who do nothing but collections cases all day, and they look like they're just getting by and wishing they were dead.

 

[Clemenza]

As for prepaid legal, the fact is a lot of simpler processes can be handled pro se by anyone who's somewhat intelligent and has Google. Lawyers have to specialize to make it in this economy. In my first gig after law school, I was sent to do some small claims cases to get practice. There are attorneys who do nothing but collections cases all day, and they look like they're just getting by and wishing they were dead.

It seems like everyone here thinks that all lawyers are making 500k a year and rolling around in their money. This has not been my experience. I know some lawyers that do very well but I know many more that are doing jobs like you just described.

 

[artemicion]

Second "lawyers are horrible" thread I've seen today, so I'll offer this analogy.

Lawyers don't write crappy laws, legislators do. Lawyers will find the loopholes in crappy laws, but it's up to legislators to patch those up.

Lawyers are like beta testers and legislators are like programmers. Lawyers are very good at taking the law that legislators spit out and finding unexpected loopholes and such, but it's really on the legislators to address those issues by passing new laws.

I'll also say it's not entirely the legislators' faults, because a lot of solutions to the problems in the legal system are too complicated for stupid voters to understand, so they never get fixed. And any time you change a law, you're screwing SOMEONE over, even if it's better for the country as a whole, so a lot of things don't get changed. (E.g., it's difficult to amend employment laws in favor of employers, even when warranted, because most voters are employees and think they're getting screwed over because they can't see the big picture).

 

[Sho'Nuff]

for doctors, the AMA artificially keeps enrollment low thus nets high prices for them because of supply + demand.

for lawyers, law schools let anyone and everyone in.
there's an over supply of lawyers. so much so that even the military is turning them down for law positions.

so why are lawyers still commanding such high prices???

and why isn't there a walmart of law firms to take advantage of the over supply?

I practice patent law. Patent lawyers are expensive because we are required to be three professions in one, i.e., a scientist, a lawyer, and a technical writer. In many cases a masters or a PhD in a science is required to pass go (i.e., you won't get a job without one). Definitely not a glut of patent lawyers around. At least not patent lawyers with any amount of experience.

As to your more general point, there are low cost law firms around. But just as with anything else, you get what you pay for.

 

[Colt45]

Legislators and lobbyists are all lawyers too. the worst kind.

 

[Corporate Thug]

Probably has something to do with tuition.

I seriously looked into becoming a lawyer and was very turned off by the tuition in my "state". Cheapest, no-name schools in small towns would set me back about $100k after including living expenses -- conveniently ignoring the opportunity cost of a regular job, even at minimum wage. I believe I need 3 years of undergrad to apply to law school here. If I were >$100k in debt, I would leave the field unless I got a well paying job. That may partly explain the price floor.

Make law a cheap, BA type degree and prices would probably drop -- fat chance considering how lucrative it is for schools and successful lawyers.

That's not just feasible in a four year program. It would have to be longer (maybe 6 year) undergrad program. Besides, offering it as a undergrad degree would only serve to saturate the market.

 

[Dirigible]

Legislators and lobbyists are all lawyers too. the worst kind.

This is not true. A large portion of legislators are not lawyers. Here, to save you some googling is a link backing up my statement, saying only 40% of senators were lawyers in 2012 and the rate had been declining:
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/23/first-thing-we-do-lets-elect-all-the-lawyers/


It would probably be better if legislators were all lawyers. Seeing as they are in charge of making laws, it would be nice if they had experience of how laws actually work.

 

[Dirigible]

I practice patent law. Patent lawyers are expensive because we are required to have to be three professions in one, i.e., a scientist, a lawyer, and a technical writer. In many cases a masters or a PhD in a science is required to pass go (i.e., you won't get a job without one). Definitely not a glut of patent lawyers around. At least not patent lawyers with any amount of experience.

As to your more general point, there are low cost law firms around. But just as with anything else, you get what you pay for.

Have you seen prices you can charge to prepare and prosecute a patent go up in the past few years? If anything, what I've seen is prices being clamped down, and declining when inflation is taken into account.

 

[poofyhairguy]

legal zoom is not a law firm. they do not give legal advise. they are facilitators for filing paperwork for various things.

Sure I get that. I guess what I was saying is that the stuff where a lawyer feels like a rip (aka is just easy paperwork) then just do it yourself.

 

[Imp]

That's not just feasible in a four year program. It would have to be longer (maybe 6 year) undergrad program. Besides, offering it as a undergrad degree would only serve to saturate the market.

You only need 3 years of undergrad in Canada to apply to some law schools.
http://www.law.utoronto.ca/admissions/youth-outreach/so-you-want-become-lawyer

You used to be able to get an LLB (bachelor of laws) or JD here depending on which school you went to. Schools have been changing the name to JD over the past decade.
http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/the-letter-of-the-law/

Looks like schools in the UK allow you to enter law out of high school for a 3 year program.
http://www2.le.ac.uk/departments/law/undergraduate/canadian-applicants

And it looks like the US law market is plenty saturated as-is.

 

[Brian Stirling]

The law of supply and demand does not apply in the way you'd think for lawyers -- it's an inverse relationship. I town with one lawyer will have a poor lawyer, but the moment a second lawyer moves to town both will do OK. The more lawyers there are the more lawsuits there will be.

The only thing lawyers like more than lawyers is insurance salesman -- they provide the pool of money they can go after and insurance salesmen provide the financial protection from, wait for it, ........ lawyers.

Lawyers and insurance salesmen are mutually parasitic.


Brian