If You Could Choose Any Previous President...

[Luck JF]

Thomas Jefferson was not a racist. He had a black lover for a very long time.
He owned slaves that he inheritid and he treated them very well.

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: nick1985
i like how these liberals are voting for jefferson when he had slaves and wanted indian removal. i hope you guys know he believes in about the exact opposite things as you...

Jefferson Davis != Thomas Jefferson.

 

[Vadatajs]

Clinton.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: nick1985
and if jefferson was president you wouldnt care that he was a slave owner and an avid rascist right?

When discussing historical figures, please judge them in the context of their times and not by modern values. Otherwise, it's revisionist history, something you condemn the liberals of, right?

I agree with you, but with such a hypothetical question like this thread proposes, we either have to take them the way they were, transposed to our time, or imagine that somehow their sensibilities would lead them to adopt certain things we take for granted now. Some of those changes would be positive, some would be negative, and it's hard to say who they even would be if we start changing them.

And there is also the fact that there were people back in those days, like John Adams, who lived in the same world Jefferson lived in and yet could see how wrong slavery was. So maybe the old dudes don't really deserve a pass for stuff we wouldn't find acceptable these days.

 

[nick1985]

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: nick1985
i like how these liberals are voting for jefferson when he had slaves and wanted indian removal. i hope you guys know he believes in about the exact opposite things as you...

Jefferson Davis != Thomas Jefferson.

me != talking about you

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Luck JF
Thomas Jefferson was not a racist. He had a black lover for a very long time.
He owned slaves that he inheritid and he treated them very well.

Exactly.

Originally posted by: Tom
I agree with you, but with such a hypothetical question like this thread proposes, we either have to take them the way they were, transposed to our time, or imagine that somehow their sensibilities would lead them to adopt certain things we take for granted now. Some of those changes would be positive, some would be negative, and it's hard to say who they even would be if we start changing them.

And there is also the fact that there were people back in those days, like John Adams, who lived in the same world Jefferson lived in and yet could see how wrong slavery was. So maybe the old dudes don't really deserve a pass for stuff we wouldn't find acceptable these days.

You're still not being fair. Yes, it is true that Washington freed all his slaves and Jefferson didn't. But Washington's wealth came from marrying the widow of the largest landowner in the Colonies. Jefferson OTOH owned relatively little land and his wealth derived from the slaves he owned. And without that wealth, he likely would not have had a seat at the Constitutional table.

 

[jackschmittusa]

Gerold Ford

Never was a man so thoroughly investigated before and after assumming the Presidency. Innumerable people investigated everything he ever said and did and most everyone who ever knew him was interviewed. No one could anything illegal or dispicable in his past. And when he sent the Marines after the Mayaguez, nobody screwed with us again while he was in office.

He was likely the most honest man ever in the office, understood the use of military force in international politics, and was a decisive leader. All of this in the face of the greatest time of public distrust of politics and policians. He knew full well the political capitol that pardoning Nixion would cost him, but did it in the best interests of the country. It took a lot of guts to do that.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Luck JF
Thomas Jefferson was not a racist. He had a black lover for a very long time.
He owned slaves that he inheritid and he treated them very well.

Exactly.

Originally posted by: Tom
I agree with you, but with such a hypothetical question like this thread proposes, we either have to take them the way they were, transposed to our time, or imagine that somehow their sensibilities would lead them to adopt certain things we take for granted now. Some of those changes would be positive, some would be negative, and it's hard to say who they even would be if we start changing them.

And there is also the fact that there were people back in those days, like John Adams, who lived in the same world Jefferson lived in and yet could see how wrong slavery was. So maybe the old dudes don't really deserve a pass for stuff we wouldn't find acceptable these days.

You're still not being fair. Yes, it is true that Washington freed all his slaves and Jefferson didn't. But Washington's wealth came from marrying the widow of the largest landowner in the Colonies. Jefferson OTOH owned relatively little land and his wealth derived from the slaves he owned. And without that wealth, he likely would not have had a seat at the Constitutional table.

It's impossible to say. My own opinion is that Jefferson was a great man, who possibly could have been even greater without the conflict of engaging in something that he thought himself was immoral. At least I think I remember he felt that way about slavery at some point in his life.

If Jefferson and a few of the other people of that day had opposed slavery at the get go, and had succeeded in leading everyobdy to find a better way to make the South's economy work, then maybe we would never have had the Civil War, and 140 years of racism that followed it.(so far)

On the other hand, without the Civil War maybe we never would have gotten as strong militarily as we did, and the world might have lost WW1 or WW2 and we'd all be slaves of the 3rd Reich now.

Speculation is complicated.

 

[nick1985]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Luck JF
Thomas Jefferson was not a racist. He had a black lover for a very long time.
He owned slaves that he inheritid and he treated them very well.

Exactly.

Originally posted by: Tom
I agree with you, but with such a hypothetical question like this thread proposes, we either have to take them the way they were, transposed to our time, or imagine that somehow their sensibilities would lead them to adopt certain things we take for granted now. Some of those changes would be positive, some would be negative, and it's hard to say who they even would be if we start changing them.

And there is also the fact that there were people back in those days, like John Adams, who lived in the same world Jefferson lived in and yet could see how wrong slavery was. So maybe the old dudes don't really deserve a pass for stuff we wouldn't find acceptable these days.

You're still not being fair. Yes, it is true that Washington freed all his slaves and Jefferson didn't. But Washington's wealth came from marrying the widow of the largest landowner in the Colonies. Jefferson OTOH owned relatively little land and his wealth derived from the slaves he owned. And without that wealth, he likely would not have had a seat at the Constitutional table.

thomas jefferson wasnt a rascist?

"Thomas Jefferson himself, acting as governor of Virginia, wrote that "If we are to wage a campaign against these Indians the end proposed should be their extermination, or their removal beyond the lakes of the Illinois River. The same world would scarcely do for them and us."

yeah, he sure wasnt rascist...:roll:

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: nick1985
thomas jefferson wasnt a rascist?

"Thomas Jefferson himself, acting as governor of Virginia, wrote that "If we are to wage a campaign against these Indians the end proposed should be their extermination, or their removal beyond the lakes of the Illinois River. The same world would scarcely do for them and us."

yeah, he sure wasnt rascist...:roll:

Sigh... in that time and place, Indians were like the terrorists you're so afraid of but they attacked every day.


edit: do they even teach history in our schools anymore? Or just that revisionist sh!t that says all white men are evil? :roll:

 

[nick1985]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: nick1985
thomas jefferson wasnt a rascist?

"Thomas Jefferson himself, acting as governor of Virginia, wrote that "If we are to wage a campaign against these Indians the end proposed should be their extermination, or their removal beyond the lakes of the Illinois River. The same world would scarcely do for them and us."

yeah, he sure wasnt rascist...:roll:

Sigh... in that time and place, Indians were like the terrorists you're so afraid of but they attacked every day.


edit: do they even teach history in our schools anymore? Or just that revisionist sh!t that says all white men are evil? :roll:

so because times were different, wanting to exterminate indians and viewing them as sub humans isnt rascism? ok, now i understand.

yeah, you know how those cherokee in tennesse that assimailated to "white" culture and abandoned the nomadic way of life? good 'ol jefferson got the ball rolling on throwing them out, jackson finished the job. but since times were different, i guess this was "ok"....:roll:

maybe its you who needs a history lesson pal.

 

[BBond]

For those of you who complained about taking Jefferson out of historical context, I'd like to point out a more recent case of the same type of racist hypocirsy, Strom Thurmond.

The point of my post was the hypocrisy of the right in attacking President Clinton while ignoring the behavior of so many other U.S. politicians. The particularly viscious Karl Rove inspired attack against John McCain for having a "black daughter" during the South Carolina primaries in 2000 also comes to mind.

 

[wkabel23]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: nick1985
thomas jefferson wasnt a rascist?

"Thomas Jefferson himself, acting as governor of Virginia, wrote that "If we are to wage a campaign against these Indians the end proposed should be their extermination, or their removal beyond the lakes of the Illinois River. The same world would scarcely do for them and us."

yeah, he sure wasnt rascist...:roll:

Sigh... in that time and place, Indians were like the terrorists you're so afraid of but they attacked every day.


edit: do they even teach history in our schools anymore? Or just that revisionist sh!t that says all white men are evil? :roll:

Hold up there. Indians lived on the land first and were attacked first. Although claiming all white men are evil is wrong, claiming the indians were "terrorists" is just as false.

As for the OP I'd pick Truman, Clinton , or Hamilton, even though he was never a Pres.

 

[gutharius]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
clinton.

Only preseident to make sure everybody got some modicum of happiness, including himself.

 

[ajf3]

Not one of the valid choices, but my favorite would be Bush/Cheney in their 2nd term when neither of them have to worry about being re-elected

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: nick1985
so because times were different, wanting to exterminate indians and viewing them as sub humans isnt rascism? ok, now i understand.

yeah, you know how those cherokee in tennesse that assimailated to "white" culture and abandoned the nomadic way of life? good 'ol jefferson got the ball rolling on throwing them out, jackson finished the job. but since times were different, i guess this was "ok"....:roll:

maybe its you who needs a history lesson pal.

That was after Jefferson was governor of Virginia.

Originally posted by: wkabel23
Hold up there. Indians lived on the land first and were attacked first. Although claiming all white men are evil is wrong, claiming the indians were "terrorists" is just as false.

I was not trying to point blame. Merely put historical context into modern context. for nick's sake. I don't think he got it.

 

[Genesys]

TR

TR was the man when it came to foreign policy
He was also a tree hugger, but in the "national park" good way. Not the "a tree is more valuable than a life" BAD way.

 

[ericlp]

Originally posted by: classy
The best there is, the best that was, the best that ever will be

Bill Clinton

Hey! I agree. I thought he was great.

Best times I ever had. $$ was flowing and no one was trying to figure out if they had a job the next day.


Oh well.

 

[SwissArmyBilly]

thomas jefferson wasnt a rascist?

"Thomas Jefferson himself, acting as governor of Virginia, wrote that "If we are to wage a campaign against these Indians the end proposed should be their extermination, or their removal beyond the lakes of the Illinois River. The same world would scarcely do for them and us."

yeah, he sure wasnt rascist...


This quote does not support the conclusion that TJ is a racist. He was a realist and a man that spoke plainly and truthfully. He simply said that IF you wage a campaign you must exterminate them or get the so far away that they are not heard from. The white man and the NA ways of life could not coexist and he saw that.

Billy

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: nick1985

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: XZeroII
Thomas Jefferson. Hands down. That guy had wisdom up the ying yang. Unfortunately, he would probably rather die than live in present day US.

Strong points:
Strongly opposed to a strong central gov't.
Strongly opposed to a central bank.

Originally posted by: XZeroII

Originally posted by: classy
The best there is, the best that was, the best that ever will be

Bill Clinton

*clutch heart*



**THUD**

I'd pick President Clinton as well.

I find it odd that anyone who would choose Jefferson would oppose Clinton, XZero. After all, judging from recent Republican history, if Jefferson was president now the Republicans would attack him for cheating on his wife, having a mistress, and black children, right?

and if jefferson was president you wouldnt care that he was a slave owner and an avid rascist right?

 

[lordtyranus]

Clinton would have been a god had he been a republican.

 

[snidy1]

Originally posted by: classy
The best there is, the best that was, the best that ever will be

Bill Clinton

Take another hit off your crack pipe

 

[dmw16]

If I had to pick I'd say either Washington (the idealized figure of historic lore) or FDR cuz I liked how socially progressive he was. How about if I could pick any of the big guys from the early days of the country...how about Ben Franklin (yes I know he wasnt a president).

EDIT: You know, I would even go as far as to say Regan. At least he said "America would never be the aggressors in any war." Bush, did you hear that?

 

[bozack]

Ronald Reagan

 

[Mayax]

Lincoln wasn't much of a President. He ended slavery, true enough but that's not what he set out to do. The ending of slavery was a fortunate by-product. A lot of you would do well to research beyond the whitewashed version in the school books.

My vote would go to Thomas Jefferson.