If you put in 8 hours/day every week, should you receive a wage you can live upon?

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nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
It isn't up to the employer to do that, this is just a market inefficiency that we have to deal with due to our choice not to let people starve to death, etc. Right now employers like Walmart have their wage costs artificially depressed because they have been able to externalize some of those costs. That's bad economics, so we should change that.

The fact that an entry-level job cannot support a single mom with 2 kids is not a "market-inefficiency". It is a liberal values inefficiency. This should be obvious since a single mom with 2 kids requires a "living wage" ~30% higher than that for a married couple with 2 kids.
 

Agent11

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2006
3,535
1
0
Maybe Miss Single Mom should get married and or train to get a better job, at least, move closer to extended family who can help provide child care, ideally, And get on with her life.
 

Lithium381

Lifer
May 12, 2001
12,458
2
0
The fact that an entry-level job cannot support a single mom with 2 kids is not a "market-inefficiency". It is a liberal values inefficiency. This should be obvious since a single mom with 2 kids requires a "living wage" ~30% higher than that for a married couple with 2 kids.

Spot on.
 

Tango

Senior member
May 9, 2002
244
0
0
Maybe Miss Single Mom should get married and or train to get a better job, at least, move closer to extended family who can help provide child care, ideally, And get on with her life.

It's not only about the mother. The children have absolutely no responsibility on their situation.

Condemning children to poverty has extremely costly economic externalities, on top of being heinous on so many other levels.
 

WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
68
91
I would say that minimum wage jobs should probably be indexed to inflation, though honestly I haven't studied the issue enough. Most low wage retail jobs, restaurant, salesperson, etc. jobs have incredibly high turnover because they tend to be so low skilled that eventually people transition away from them naturally as they build experience. Lower skilled workers tend to not take risks either so it's even more difficult to convince them to move to another industry or move up to higher paying jobs.

This.

There should be no expectation that a part time job should keep a roof over your head. Working that same job at a full time status probably should get you at least close... and no, you are not going to be owning your own house or eating steak... You'll probably still be slumming it somewhere... and you shouldn't have any decent expectation of raising a family.

That said, I don't know how many employers actually see a need to have any minimum wage position be full time.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,499
136

Uhmm, duh? Our 'liberal values' of 'children shouldn't starve to death' makes it possible for unscrupulous companies to abuse the system. That's why we should work to stop that.

nehalem is just mad because women are involved somehow.
 

WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
68
91
It's not only about the mother. The children have absolutely no responsibility on their situation.

Condemning children to poverty has extremely costly economic externalities, on top of being heinous on so many other levels.

Humans only learn by example. Rewarding irresponsible decision making by throwing money at them for supporting their kids does nothing but raise one generation after another of public assistance lifers.

There should be hard limits, and there should be choices forced upon them... Already have two kids and on welfare? Want extra assistance? Let the state tie your tubes, or snip you. In fact, I'm all for offering tax free cash to those willing to undergo that procedure.
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,597
127
106
Humans only learn by example. Rewarding irresponsible decision making by throwing money at them for supporting their kids does nothing but raise one generation after another of public assistance lifers.

There should be hard limits, and there should be choices forced upon them... Already have two kids and on welfare? Want extra assistance? Let the state tie your tubes, or snip you. In fact, I'm all for offering tax free cash to those willing to undergo that procedure.

The keyboard sociopaths are here!
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,499
136
Humans only learn by example. Rewarding irresponsible decision making by throwing money at them for supporting their kids does nothing but raise one generation after another of public assistance lifers.

There should be hard limits, and there should be choices forced upon them... Already have two kids and on welfare? Want extra assistance? Let the state tie your tubes, or snip you. In fact, I'm all for offering tax free cash to those willing to undergo that procedure.

Ok, that's pretty gross. You're getting into nehalem256 territory here.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
Uhmm, duh? Our 'liberal values' of 'children shouldn't starve to death' makes it possible for unscrupulous companies to abuse the system. That's why we should work to stop that.

What abuse of the system are you talking about? Are you suggesting that minimum wage should be set to ~$25+/hr so that a single mom with 2 kids can be supported by an entry level job. Or that single mom's should be paid more simple because they made bad life choices?

Also, considering that liberal values pretty much encourage the starvation of children, along with them being beaten to death, molested*, etc I don't think liberals can claim they are the ones who care about the well being of children.

Liberals couldn't care less about the well being of children. What they care about is letting women do whatever they want. And they use children as hostages to get it. Funny that liberals, and you, threw a big fit about Republican debt hostage taking, when hostage taking is pretty much fundamental to liberalism.

*http://www.nbcnews.com/id/21838575/...igher-risk-nontraditional-homes/#.UM9XfIM701J
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
Ok, that's pretty gross. You're getting into nehalem256 territory here.

So holding women responsible for their CHOICES is pretty gross? D:

Limiting the number of children women can use as hostages to extort benefits from society is pretty gross? D:
 

Agent11

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2006
3,535
1
0
The government does need to send the message that single mothers should seek to improve their situation rather than live off the state. This means getting married to a man who can provide for their family or improving themselves and providing for their children. Extended family is important regardless because of the extreme cost of child care. It is a relatively new development in society that families are dispersed, estranged and unsupportive of close relatives. The government should not contribute to this trend, but it is.

I'm against any sort of eugenics however, and forcing people to neuter themselves is abhorrent in my opinion.
 

Lithium381

Lifer
May 12, 2001
12,458
2
0
Uhmm, duh? Our 'liberal values' of 'children shouldn't starve to death' makes it possible for unscrupulous companies to abuse the system. That's why we should work to stop that.

nehalem is just mad because women are involved somehow.

Im not advocating that children starve. Im advocating personal responsibility. Youre trying to push the mothers bad choices or unfortunate circumstances permanently onto corporations which have NO inherent responsibility to anybody.

Walmart does have FTE available that can support that mother in the situation you like to use. Companies aren't "abusing the system" as you put it. If they were, then change the system and the company will adjust. If you want to start your own company and pay your living wage there is nothing stopping you. Until then you don't get a say in how company X is run. It's not your place.

Thats the problem with the statist mindset... just one more law...one more piece of legislation and we will have our utopia... it basically stems from jealousy.
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,450
10,119
126
Im not advocating that children starve. Im advocating personal responsibility. Youre trying to push the mothers bad choices or unfortunate circumstances permanently onto corporations which have NO inherent responsibility to anybody.
It used to be, corporations were chartered "for the public good". They are responsible for that. If they are not, they should be disbanded, and their charters revoked.

Walmart does have FTE available that can support that mother in the situation you like to use. Companies aren't "abusing the system" as you put it. If they were, then change the system and the company will adjust. If you want to start your own company and pay your living wage there is nothing stopping you. Until then you don't get a say in how company X is run. It's not your place.

Thats the problem with the statist mindset... just one more law...one more piece of legislation and we will have our utopia... it basically stems from jealousy.

That's the problem with the corporatist mindset. Just one more freedom for corporations, that makes them more powerful and above the natural persons that they supposedly serve, will lead us all down the path to becoming corporate pawns and slaves.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
So you really believe if we cancel welfare Walmart will increase its wages? Do you REALLY believe that, or are you just being an idiot? NO ONE who studies economics, NO ONE who uses logic and facts to form an opinion will tell you that companies will give low skilled workers a raise if we cancel welfare. NO ONE.

Just for my future knowledge, is it normal for you to make up other people's arguments? I never argued to cancel welfare or that Walmart will increase its wages in that event. I will however argue that you're a clueless douchebag.
 
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Agent11

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2006
3,535
1
0
If you are worried about being made a slave worry about all the communist drivel being bandied about lately. Once the state owns you and all you own or produce what are you then?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,499
136
Im not advocating that children starve. Im advocating personal responsibility. Youre trying to push the mothers bad choices or unfortunate circumstances permanently onto corporations which have NO inherent responsibility to anybody.

Walmart does have FTE available that can support that mother in the situation you like to use. Companies aren't "abusing the system" as you put it. If they were, then change the system and the company will adjust. If you want to start your own company and pay your living wage there is nothing stopping you. Until then you don't get a say in how company X is run. It's not your place.

Thats the problem with the statist mindset... just one more law...one more piece of legislation and we will have our utopia... it basically stems from jealousy.

Of course we have a say in how walmart is run, don't be absurd. What do you think the law is?

Also, I'm explicitly advocating to change the system.

Finally, I'm also advocating for personal responsibility. You appear to be content with subsidizing walmarts wage policy. I am not.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
So lets end welfare and food stamps.

Problem fixed, since in your mind it is such a problem.

Once we end welfare and food stamps, I'm gonna arm all the poor people and send em to your house. Then maybe you'll understand why those programs exist in the first place.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
Once we end welfare and food stamps, I'm gonna arm all the poor people and send em to your house. Then maybe you'll understand why those programs exist in the first place.

What you are describing sounds an awful lot like extortion.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
Of course we have a say in how walmart is run, don't be absurd. What do you think the law is?

Also, I'm explicitly advocating to change the system.

Finally, I'm also advocating for personal responsibility. You appear to be content with subsidizing walmarts wage policy. I am not.

So then I assume you are in favor of minimum wage being raised to $25+/hr so that a single mother can support her 2 kids
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
82,854
17,365
136
Once we end welfare and food stamps, I'm gonna arm all the poor people and send em to your house. Then maybe you'll understand why those programs exist in the first place.

If you cant afford to give them food, how you gonna give them guns?

My idea is let them try to riot and steal and see what happens when they finally move outward and encounter armed suburbanites who've been shooting all their lives.
That would also so solve the problem right away.


These programs exist in the first place to keep the lower class down instead of letting them turn into animals and get killed, or giving them motivation to leave behind their old, uncivilized ways and join the productive part of society.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Once we end welfare and food stamps, I'm gonna arm all the poor people and send em to your house. Then maybe you'll understand why those programs exist in the first place.

Sounds good. When do we start? Now please?

I can guarantee they wouldn't last long in my neighborhood. All my neighbors know how to use long rifles and scopes and are armed to the teeth with 10s of thousands of rounds. when you get to where I am on life, you have means to protect what's yours, same as my neighbors.

Rioting is good, they only destroy their own neighborhoods. I say let 'em.
 
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