If you put in 8 hours/day every week, should you receive a wage you can live upon?

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Nov 25, 2013
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Why should a poor person own a car? Use public transportation like tens of millions of Europeans do. And why do they need an apartment all to themselves? Never heard of roommates?

Now you get to study the differences between public transit in pretty much the rest of the developed world and the United States.

I'll give you a hint, the US doesn't win.
 
Nov 25, 2013
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We dont "allow" business to exist. Did Compaq ask your permission to form? Did Intel decide to start its entire business for you? Of course not. Did the local hardware store get your permission to buy a building and stock it?

The idea business exists for the sake of citizens is some misaligned Socialist "We are the world" theory. Its not entirely wrong. If everyone on the planet died, certainly business would stop. But business doesnt exist "for the sake of" people.

Try opening a business without a business license and see where that gets you.

Go back to the beginnings of 'state' (i.e a social collective based on a common self identification) and 'business' (i.e. the concept that one can trade one thing for another thing and do so on a regular basis and feel that you gain something from each exchange) has always existed at the whim of the state.

[somewhat awkwardly phrased but it's understandable]
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Now the brain defective have diverted the thread into business rights etc. instead of the fact their ain't enough jobs to employ all the people who want to work. They just can't face the fact that the market doesn't work because when the supply of workers is high workers are worthless. The brain defective worship of the market is destroying people's lives and the collective horseshit worshipers are responsible for preventing any change.

Mike Rowe would strongly disagree with you. in fact he would (righlty) state there are millions of jobs simply waiting for someone to want to fill them. Of course it requires a bit of hard work, requires getting a bit dirty, so of course the special snowflakes of this generation have no desire whatsoever in doing them.

Why should they? Much simpler to blame their own failings on some unnamed corporate CEO I suppose.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
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If an FTE employee can qualify for public assistance, then an employer can use that as a negotiating tool during recruiting. In other words, the prospective employee who is willing to supplement his income with public assistance has an advantage over the employee who is not so inclined, as they will settle for a lower wage. And the employer is able to externalize a portion of their labor costs. This upsets the labor market and should be strongly discouraged.

So by your logic if we suspended social programs employers would give everyone a raise? Of course not. The social programs have no bearing whatsoever on what an employer chooses to pay its employees. Now, if the employer tells employees how to take advantage of social programs then thats their business but I assure you the employer wouldnt change his rate of pay regardless of the existence of social programs.
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,597
127
106
Mike Rowe would strongly disagree with you. in fact he would (righlty) state there are millions of jobs simply waiting for someone to want to fill them. Of course it requires a bit of hard work, requires getting a bit dirty, so of course the special snowflakes of this generation have no desire whatsoever in doing them.

Why should they? Much simpler to blame their own failings on some unnamed corporate CEO I suppose.

Fight that strawman! Fight him until he can get up no more so you can just create a new one.
 

Murloc

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2008
5,382
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if people who work get social aid, it's not a sustainable system.
The minimum wage should allow you to live, that means being able to rent a room and pay for food, clothes and transportation.
If too many people are on social aid, there's no incentive to work hard because wage raises just mean you pay more taxes and receive less social aid.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Now you get to study the differences between public transit in pretty much the rest of the developed world and the United States.

I'll give you a hint, the US doesn't win.
Our public transportation has lagged because of our relative wealth and because our population has historically been more independent and more spread out. Europe by contrast has been more poor and more concentrated. Even Canada, though sparsely populated as a whole, is concentrated into huge megacities. Now that we're conentrating into big cities, becoming poorer on average, and being educated on the benefits of the State, we'll catch up.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
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londojowo.hypermart.net
I think minimum wage should be raised to $9.00/hr for worker below 18 years of age and $12.00/hr workers 18 years old and above. Though it wouldn't surprise me if the unemployment numbers and those receiving government aid increases with these newer wage levels.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,775
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If an FTE employee can qualify for public assistance, then an employer can use that as a negotiating tool during recruiting. In other words, the prospective employee who is willing to supplement his income with public assistance has an advantage over the employee who is not so inclined, as they will settle for a lower wage. And the employer is able to externalize a portion of their labor costs. This upsets the labor market and should be strongly discouraged.

Exactly this. An employee clearly needs to have some minimum standard of living in order to successfully work. If their wages are not sufficient to provide this and the government picks up that tab, the employer is simply using the US government to externalize their wage costs to get a competitive advantage. That's bad economics, regardless of your ideology.

If Walmart can only keep their prices low because we subsidize their employees then their prices aren't actually low. This should be discouraged.
 

Murloc

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2008
5,382
65
91
Our public transportation has lagged because of our relative wealth and because our population has historically been more independent and more spread out. Europe by contrast has been more poor and more concentrated. Even Canada, though sparsely populated as a whole, is concentrated into huge megacities. Now that we're conentrating into big cities, becoming poorer on average, and being educated on the benefits of the State, we'll catch up.
Private transportation in the US is more affordable because it's much less taxed, so the poor don't need public transport, and there's also not much financing for public transport as a result.
But this is fiscal policy that makes owning cars affordable or not, not people being poor or rich.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
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There are reasons why employers are more receptive to foreign labor as each year goes by. Running a business in the U.S. is becoming increasingly complicated to the point where you have to generate large revenues and be very efficient at it, in order to have enough extra cash to afford lawyers to interpret and handle all the legal matters the government lays on the business.

Of course, do we really think large corporations want small start-ups growing and challenging them in the market?

Squelched by regulations the free market is not so free.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
To break down your argument, it basically goes, "Republicans during the 1980's did not implement an economic policy that worked as intended, therefore you must be wrong and I must be right."
Wrong, the policy worked exactly as Republicans intended. The wealth concentration at the top is not a side effect, it's the goal of trickle down supply side economics.
Fucking waste you are. Have fun continually begging for a high paying unskilled job, while I continue to provide for others from my skilled labor.

Wrong again.
I have advanced degrees and a high skilled job that pays six figures.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Exactly this. An employee clearly needs to have some minimum standard of living in order to successfully work. If their wages are not sufficient to provide this and the government picks up that tab, the employer is simply using the US government to externalize their wage costs to get a competitive advantage. That's bad economics, regardless of your ideology.

If Walmart can only keep their prices low because we subsidize their employees then their prices aren't actually low. This should be discouraged.

But thats not what is happening. In fact thats not even logic, thats just made up lies to try to garner emotional responses.

I promise you, in writing, Walmart will not raise its wages if you stop giving people welfare. I promise it. Walmart doesnt base its wages off what welfare pays. I promise you, they dont.

Thats the big lie the Democrats want you to believe, that the government is somehow having to subsidize companies who pay low wages. But its just patently not true. Employers set their wages without any regard to whether welfare is available or not.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Try opening a business without a business license and see where that gets you.

Go back to the beginnings of 'state' (i.e a social collective based on a common self identification) and 'business' (i.e. the concept that one can trade one thing for another thing and do so on a regular basis and feel that you gain something from each exchange) has always existed at the whim of the state.

[somewhat awkwardly phrased but it's understandable]

The problem there is for many centuries one didnt need the States approval to open a business. The entire concept of "business license" simply didnt exist. More over the idea of trade existed well before the idea of an organized state. Even animals exhibit the concept of trade and certainly animals arent forming governments and voting.
 

Lithium381

Lifer
May 12, 2001
12,458
2
0
Exactly this. An employee clearly needs to have some minimum standard of living in order to successfully work. If their wages are not sufficient to provide this and the government picks up that tab, the employer is simply using the US government to externalize their wage costs to get a competitive advantage. That's bad economics, regardless of your ideology.

If Walmart can only keep their prices low because we subsidize their employees then their prices aren't actually low. This should be discouraged.

Again, why is it up to the employer to provide your minimum dtandard of living (of which we'd probably disagree on the details). To provide a MSL for someone going to college while living at home is FAR different from the liberal posterchild single mom with two kids. Theyre not even allowed to ask about situations during the interview. Walmart actually privides jobs that would sustain either situation I provided.... but not necessarily an entry level position..
 

Lithium381

Lifer
May 12, 2001
12,458
2
0
But thats not what is happening. In fact thats not even logic, thats just made up lies to try to garner emotional responses.

I promise you, in writing, Walmart will not raise its wages if you stop giving people welfare. I promise it. Walmart doesnt base its wages off what welfare pays. I promise you, they dont.

Thats the big lie the Democrats want you to believe, that the government is somehow having to subsidize companies who pay low wages. But its just patently not true. Employers set their wages without any regard to whether welfare is available or not.

Its largely based on the skill level and available workers to di the task... that's why people with MDs get paid more... there are fewer people qualified to do ot.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
82,854
17,365
136
yup. labor also has to follow the rules of supply and demand.
Outsourcing work and letting illegals stay here had hurt the american worker more than anything else. It has nothing to do with corporate greed.
As greedy as walmart is, they dont choose the price of the goods, their consumers do.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
Exactly this. An employee clearly needs to have some minimum standard of living in order to successfully work. If their wages are not sufficient to provide this and the government picks up that tab, the employer is simply using the US government to externalize their wage costs to get a competitive advantage. That's bad economics, regardless of your ideology.

So then why isn't the Democratic party pushing to cut welfare programs? Do they like subsidizing evil corporations like Walmart?

If Walmart can only keep their prices low because we subsidize their employees then their prices aren't actually low. This should be discouraged.

As per the numbers I posted previously Walmart almost certainly pays a living wage for a single adult.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
But thats not what is happening. In fact thats not even logic, thats just made up lies to try to garner emotional responses.

I promise you, in writing, Walmart will not raise its wages if you stop giving people welfare. I promise it. Walmart doesnt base its wages off what welfare pays. I promise you, they dont.

Thats the big lie the Democrats want you to believe, that the government is somehow having to subsidize companies who pay low wages. But its just patently not true. Employers set their wages without any regard to whether welfare is available or not.

Companies "set" their wages according to the labor market, which varies wildly based on the job, the job requirements, the job location, and negotiations with individual job candidates.
In other words, there are no "set" wages except those "set" by the market. And the availability of public assistance dollars is affecting the bottom end of the labor market, holding wages down.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,775
49,434
136
Again, why is it up to the employer to provide your minimum dtandard of living (of which we'd probably disagree on the details). To provide a MSL for someone going to college while living at home is FAR different from the liberal posterchild single mom with two kids. Theyre not even allowed to ask about situations during the interview. Walmart actually privides jobs that would sustain either situation I provided.... but not necessarily an entry level position..

It isn't up to the employer to do that, this is just a market inefficiency that we have to deal with due to our choice not to let people starve to death, etc. Right now employers like Walmart have their wage costs artificially depressed because they have been able to externalize some of those costs. That's bad economics, so we should change that.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
197
106
If their wages are not sufficient to provide this and the government picks up that tab, the employer is simply using the US government to externalize their wage costs to get a competitive advantage. That's bad economics, regardless of your ideology.

Replace government with tax payers.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
It isn't up to the employer to do that, this is just a market inefficiency that we have to deal with due to our choice not to let people starve to death, etc. Right now employers like Walmart have their wage costs artificially depressed because they have been able to externalize some of those costs. That's bad economics, so we should change that.

So lets end welfare and food stamps.

Problem fixed, since in your mind it is such a problem.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Companies "set" their wages according to the labor market, which varies wildly based on the job, the job requirements, the job location, and negotiations with individual job candidates.
In other words, there are no "set" wages except those "set" by the market. And the availability of public assistance dollars is affecting the bottom end of the labor market, holding wages down.

So you really believe if we cancel welfare Walmart will increase its wages? Do you REALLY believe that, or are you just being an idiot? NO ONE who studies economics, NO ONE who uses logic and facts to form an opinion will tell you that companies will give low skilled workers a raise if we cancel welfare. NO ONE.
 
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