If you put in 8 hours/day every week, should you receive a wage you can live upon?

[Specop 007]

What government should do and what it actually does are of course two very different things.
However, the notion that the primary purpose of government is to protect private property is the fundamental basis of libertarian ideology. Which itself goes back to Locke and classical liberalism. Any actual conservative should appreciate this.

Edit: I did not at any time imply that a person does not or should not have the right to protect their own property. You're incapable of arguing without a straw man, aren't you?

sorry, libertarian ideals are not at all founded on the idea that government should protect property. Thats exactly the opposite in fact, many conservatives asked why public lands were closed during the government shutdown. Of course the Democrats thought that since the government wasnt around to take care of the land it should be closed, whereas conservatives wanted those lands open regardless of the government.

And by the way, whats your fascination with always bringing up "strawman" arguments. I dont think you really know what those are, but feel free to continue saying it. Maybe if you say it enough you'll believe it?

 

[Vic]

sorry, libertarian ideals are not at all founded on the idea that government should protect property. Thats exactly the opposite in fact, many conservatives asked why public lands were closed during the government shutdown. Of course the Democrats thought that since the government wasnt around to take care of the land it should be closed, whereas conservatives wanted those lands open regardless of the government.

And by the way, whats your fascination with always bringing up "strawman" arguments. I dont think you really know what those are, but feel free to continue saying it. Maybe if you say it enough you'll believe it?

I said protect PRIVATE property, asshole.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

What job are you going to force people in to, when we already have high unemployment? You supply siders just don't get it. If there is no demand, there are no jobs, all you are going to accomplish by forcing people into jobs is create oversupply of labor and drive down wages for the people working, which in turn will reduce their ability to spend and damage the economy.

Either do the government job asked of you, in order to get the government check.... Or stop getting the government check. Simple as that. Personally I would be ok with a third option... Don't want to work, but still want the handout? Agree to be sterilized.


And these aren't just jobs sitting out there... I'm saying create menial but beneficial jobs for people who are getting the handouts anyway. It wouldn't affect the labor market. A la the CCC.

 

[Specop 007]

Sorry, I guess you need another clue. No problem:

Its scary how for so long "We the people" simply meant individuals, but in the last 50 years or so so many people have decided "We the people" means a socialist government created to take money from the haves to give to the people who are the dregs of society.

Funny how you can change the entire meaning of a document which was quite clear to push your own personal agenda of a socialist state.

 

[senseamp]

Either do the government job asked of you, in order to get the government check.... Or stop getting the government check. Simple as that. Personally I would be ok with a third option... Don't want to work, but still want the handout? Agree to be sterilized.


And these aren't just jobs sitting out there... I'm saying create menial but beneficial jobs for people who are getting the handouts anyway. It wouldn't affect the labor market. A la the CCC.

So you want government creating jobs for people in time of high unemployment? Then we are in agreement.

 

[Specop 007]

I said protect PRIVATE property, asshole.

Trust me, libertarians are even less interested in having the government protect PRIVATE property.

Lets go full circle, thats what self defense laws are for. Libertarians do NOT want the government having armed soldiers or police run around with guns to protect private property. In fact, many disaster areas demonstarte that. Remember the pictures of groups of armed individuals protecting their homes and neighborhoods after a disaster? Yeah, thats what I mean. Libertarians damn sure dont need or want Daddy Government to protect their PRIVATE property.

Oh, since we seem to be acting like immature children. ASSHOLE.

 

[Incorruptible]

So you want government creating jobs for people in time of high unemployment? Then we are in agreement.

Government doesn't create jobs, they redistribute wealth and do just fine destroying jobs.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

So you want government creating jobs for people in time of high unemployment? Then we are in agreement.

What I do not want, is the government continuing to toy with minimum wage... Which is what this thread is about.


Minimum wage should not afford you a nice apartment in downtown NY along with a late model chrysler product.

 

[Vic]

Trust me, libertarians are even less interested in having the government protect PRIVATE property.

Lets go full circle, thats what self defense laws are for. Libertarians do NOT want the government having armed soldiers or police run around with guns to protect private property. In fact, many disaster areas demonstarte that. Remember the pictures of groups of armed individuals protecting their homes and neighborhoods after a disaster? Yeah, thats what I mean. Libertarians damn sure dont need or want Daddy Government to protect their PRIVATE property.

Oh, since we seem to be acting like immature children. ASSHOLE.

You're an idiot.

 

[TerryMathews]

You still haven't actually gone back to see why I mentioned those derailers have you?

Ive told you why I think. If you've got a point please man up and make it.

 

[fskimospy]

Government doesn't create jobs, they redistribute wealth and do just fine destroying jobs.

It's amazing how often you hear that nonsense; of course the government can create jobs. This is a basic, inarguable fact.

Maybe you don't think that government is the best way to create jobs in a certain situation or you think government is an inefficient creator of jobs, but to say government doesn't create jobs is beyond stupid.

 

[senseamp]

Government doesn't create jobs, they redistribute wealth and do just fine destroying jobs.

Yeah, yeah, we heard the supply-sider dogma, you don't have to repost these cliches.

 

[fskimospy]

Trust me, libertarians are even less interested in having the government protect PRIVATE property.

Lets go full circle, thats what self defense laws are for. Libertarians do NOT want the government having armed soldiers or police run around with guns to protect private property. In fact, many disaster areas demonstarte that. Remember the pictures of groups of armed individuals protecting their homes and neighborhoods after a disaster? Yeah, thats what I mean. Libertarians damn sure dont need or want Daddy Government to protect their PRIVATE property.

Oh, since we seem to be acting like immature children. ASSHOLE.

Do you have even the slightest knowledge of what libertarianism is?

 

[Incorruptible]

It's amazing how often you hear that nonsense; of course the government can create jobs. This is a basic, inarguable fact.

Maybe you don't think that government is the best way to create jobs in a certain situation or you think government is an inefficient creator of jobs, but to say government doesn't create jobs is beyond stupid.

They create government jobs by taking from the productive private sector but jobs are created by the private sector.

 

[senseamp]

What I do not want, is the government continuing to toy with minimum wage... Which is what this thread is about.


Minimum wage should not afford you a nice apartment in downtown NY along with a late model chrysler product.

I am OK with government creating jobs that raise wages indirectly through increased demand.

 

[TerryMathews]

What job are you going to force people in to, when we already have high unemployment? You supply siders just don't get it. If there is no demand, there are no jobs, all you are going to accomplish by forcing people into jobs is create oversupply of labor and drive down wages for the people working, which in turn will reduce their ability to spend and damage the economy.

I think you need to review the history of the CCC to see how little sense this post makes.

 

[Specop 007]

You're an idiot.

Why you strawman?!

Am I doing this right? I'm so confused.

 

[fskimospy]

They create government jobs by taking from the productive private sector but jobs are created by the private sector.

This is simply factually false. You may not like the jobs that government creates, but it can definitely create jobs if it chooses to do so. Or was everyone in the Soviet Union unemployed?

 

[Specop 007]

Do you have even the slightest knowledge of what libertarianism is?

Well, to be fair the definition tends to be somewhat abstract, as even self proclaimed libertarians probably couldnt agree 100% on what a libertarian believes. None the less it generally focuses on smaller government, freedoms, and individual rights.

 

[Incorruptible]

Yeah, yeah, we heard the supply-sider dogma, you don't have to repost these cliches.

Yeah, yeah, we know you're an idiot who prefers to ignore the truth. Socialism doesn't work and Capitalism is the way to prosperity.

 

[TerryMathews]

This is simply factually false. You may not like the jobs that government creates, but it can definitely create jobs if it chooses to do so. Or was everyone in the Soviet Union unemployed?

They had less food and money than the unemployed here, does that count?

 

[senseamp]

Yeah, yeah, we know you're an idiot who prefers to ignore the truth. Socialism doesn't work and Capitalism is the way to prosperity.

For the top 1% elites, maybe. It's been a road to nowhere for the middle and working class for the last 30 years.

 

[TerryMathews]

For the top 1% elites, maybe. It's been a road to nowhere for the middle and working class for the last 30 years.

So it worked for the first 237 years and has been broken for the previous 30 and you want to throw it out?

Logic dictates seeing what changed in the last 30 years. Of course, that will lead you to some inconvenient truths about both parties.

 

[fskimospy]

Well, to be fair the definition tends to be somewhat abstract, as even self proclaimed libertarians probably couldnt agree 100% on what a libertarian believes. None the less it generally focuses on smaller government, freedoms, and individual rights.

While I agree that libertarianism covers a large number of different philosophies, basically every one of them outside of the most extreme versions (which are basically anarchists) believes that the role of government is to protect private property. In fact I would say that libertarians view the protection of private property as the primary goal of government.

 

[senseamp]

So it worked for the first 237 years and has been broken for the previous 30 and you want to throw it out?

Logic dictates seeing what changed in the last 30 years. Of course, that will lead you to some inconvenient truths about both parties.

It worked for most Americans after the New Deal and it's socialistic policies. That's when the middle class truly emerged in America. Since Reaganites have started undoing these policies, it hasn't worked for anyone but those at the top.
Logic states that socialist policies were what worked.
Of course, that will lead you to some inconvenient truths about both parties.