If you want to be disappointed...........hire a contractor!!!!!!

[redgtxdi]

Welp.......today work's restarted.



Biggest question in my mind is.........

Would they have shown if I hadn't called???


Hmmmm....... :clock:

(P.S. Got an e-mail response to the voicemail I'd sent saying there was some confusion within the group as to who/where/when for Monday. Which of course prompts me to wonder about the previous 3 days, but oh well...........again C'est la vie)

 

[reallyscrued]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: HappyPuppy
I have never, ever, had a problem with a contractor. Of course I make sure it is written into the contract that there are 'no show' clauses and 'non completion' penalties. Every time the 'contractor' doesn't complete something by a set date he gets penalized. If I had wanted headaches I would have done the job myself.

oh, you're one of "those guys". We charge extra up front for you

I see.

So you charge extra if someone wants to be sure that their work is done on time?

What's the name of your business?

 

[redgtxdi]

Originally posted by: reallyscrued

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: HappyPuppy
I have never, ever, had a problem with a contractor. Of course I make sure it is written into the contract that there are 'no show' clauses and 'non completion' penalties. Every time the 'contractor' doesn't complete something by a set date he gets penalized. If I had wanted headaches I would have done the job myself.

oh, you're one of "those guys". We charge extra up front for you

I see.

So you charge extra if someone wants to be sure that their work is done on time?

What's the name of your business?

:thumbsup:

 

[sactoking]

Originally posted by: reallyscrued

Originally posted by: bctbct
oh, you're one of "those guys". We charge extra up front for you

I see.

So you charge extra if someone wants to be sure that their work is done on time?

What's the name of your business?

Agreed. That's why you ask for bids and THEN show them the contract language. The cost of the job should not be contingent upon the contract (barring particularly heinous language).

 

[MikeyIs4Dcats]

Originally posted by: sactoking

Originally posted by: reallyscrued

Originally posted by: bctbct
oh, you're one of "those guys". We charge extra up front for you

I see.

So you charge extra if someone wants to be sure that their work is done on time?

What's the name of your business?

Agreed. That's why you ask for bids and THEN show them the contract language. The cost of the job should not be contingent upon the contract (barring particularly heinous language).

contract language with penalties for "no shows" is not only likely unenforcable, but ridiculous. You hired a contractor, not a slave. you do not own him. He has a right to carry out business in a reasonable manner, which may involve him working on other projects simultaneously. As long as he keeps you informed and is reasonable, there should be no expectation he will work on your job and only your job.

 

[sactoking]

Originally posted by: MikeyIs4Dcats
contract language with penalties for "no shows" is not only likely unenforcable, but ridiculous.

I disagree, strongly.

A) Contract language that sets a firm date of completion is enforceable in every jurisdiction in the US

B) Contract language that sets liquidated damages if the completion date is not set is enforceable in every jurisdiction in the US

C) Absent a liquidated damages clause, pretty much every jurisdiction allows for consequential damages if the completion date is not met.

D) In every state I've done business in, clauses that state that "failure to provide adequate manpower to complete the job, at the discretion of Owner" is cause for termination have been enforceable.

I read 15-20 construction contracts a day and I state without reservation that penalizing contractors for not showing is not only legal, but an accepted business practice in the majority of the industry.

 

[Hacp]

DIY or GTFO!

 

[EGGO]

http://realestate.msn.com/arti...cp-documentid=20741445 Could be #3 here.

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: sactoking

Originally posted by: MikeyIs4Dcats
contract language with penalties for "no shows" is not only likely unenforcable, but ridiculous.

I disagree, strongly.

A) Contract language that sets a firm date of completion is enforceable in every jurisdiction in the US

B) Contract language that sets liquidated damages if the completion date is not set is enforceable in every jurisdiction in the US

C) Absent a liquidated damages clause, pretty much every jurisdiction allows for consequential damages if the completion date is not met.

D) In every state I've done business in, clauses that state that "failure to provide adequate manpower to complete the job, at the discretion of Owner" is cause for termination have been enforceable.

I read 15-20 construction contracts a day and I state without reservation that penalizing contractors for not showing is not only legal, but an accepted business practice in the majority of the industry.

And how much does that cost you in the end? We bid jobs all the time that have liquidated damages and they are normally fast track jobs like school work. Contractors put money in their bid to cover themselves if they even have a hint they may be assessed them.

We also will not bid some jobs because we are smart enough to know the risk is too high...for example a university stadium that had 50k per day damages.

Obviously OP has not hired a typical contractor since he expects them to work the weekend.

Dont forget that there are many legit reasons that any contrator can use to wiggle out of damages.

Here it takes written notice and certified mail delivery to fire a contractor. So while the law may allow remedies, its a pain in the ass to actually do it.

 

[MikeyIs4Dcats]

Originally posted by: sactoking

Originally posted by: MikeyIs4Dcats
contract language with penalties for "no shows" is not only likely unenforcable, but ridiculous.

I disagree, strongly.

A) Contract language that sets a firm date of completion is enforceable in every jurisdiction in the US

B) Contract language that sets liquidated damages if the completion date is not set is enforceable in every jurisdiction in the US

C) Absent a liquidated damages clause, pretty much every jurisdiction allows for consequential damages if the completion date is not met.

D) In every state I've done business in, clauses that state that "failure to provide adequate manpower to complete the job, at the discretion of Owner" is cause for termination have been enforceable.

I read 15-20 construction contracts a day and I state without reservation that penalizing contractors for not showing is not only legal, but an accepted business practice in the majority of the industry.

There is a huge difference between liquidated damages and trying to enforce arbitrary penalties for not showing up for a day's work.

Liquidated penalties are generally enforcable, though some jurisdictions outlaw them without corresponding bonuses for early completion.

Proving actual damages and getting a judgement is a lot harder than you make it sound. Especially outside the commercial realm. You would have to prove actual damages (loss of business, costs of leasing alternate space, etc.).

If you try to cancel a contract simply because you feel the contractor has not shown up enough to your standards, you will at best be made to pay him his full profit for the contract, at worst, you will be denied and found in breech yourself. This is why completion dates are set, and until he has NOT met that, he is not in breech. You may serve 72hr notice of failure to perform, but if he responds favorably, you have no grounds for termination.

<Commercial GC for 10 year, working for a company over 90 years in business.

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: reallyscrued

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: HappyPuppy
I have never, ever, had a problem with a contractor. Of course I make sure it is written into the contract that there are 'no show' clauses and 'non completion' penalties. Every time the 'contractor' doesn't complete something by a set date he gets penalized. If I had wanted headaches I would have done the job myself.

oh, you're one of "those guys". We charge extra up front for you

I see.

So you charge extra if someone wants to be sure that their work is done on time?

What's the name of your business?

I just work for myself on the side and if you came at me with a contract like that I would let you find someone else do the work because its an indicator you would be a pain in the butt.

On time is a matter of opinion, if I had a nickle for everytime I had my thumb up my ass waiting on a paint color....

 

[MikeyIs4Dcats]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: reallyscrued

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: HappyPuppy
I have never, ever, had a problem with a contractor. Of course I make sure it is written into the contract that there are 'no show' clauses and 'non completion' penalties. Every time the 'contractor' doesn't complete something by a set date he gets penalized. If I had wanted headaches I would have done the job myself.

oh, you're one of "those guys". We charge extra up front for you

I see.

So you charge extra if someone wants to be sure that their work is done on time?

What's the name of your business?

I just work for myself on the side and if you came at me with a contract like that I would let you find someone else do the work because its an indicator you would be a pain in the butt.

On time is a matter of opinion, if I had a nickle for everytime I had my thumb up my ass waiting on a paint color....

PITA factor

 

[sactoking]

Originally posted by: bctbct
And how much does that cost you in the end? We bid jobs all the time that have liquidated damages and they are normally fast track jobs like school work. Contractors put money in their bid to cover themselves if they even have a hint they may be assessed them.

We also will not bid some jobs because we are smart enough to know the risk is too high...for example a university stadium that had 50k per day damages.

Obviously OP has not hired a typical contractor since he expects them to work the weekend.

Dont forget that there are many legit reasons that any contrator can use to wiggle out of damages.

Here it takes written notice and certified mail delivery to fire a contractor. So while the law may allow remedies, its a pain in the ass to actually do it.

You INCREASE your bid to account for LDs? That's rather backwards.

Contractors view LDs wrong. If you have your choice between a school contract and a school contract with $1000/day which is better, ceterus paribus? Contractors tell me all the time that the contract without LDs is better. That is WRONG. Absent a LD clause in the contract your subject to actual and consequential damages. I'd much rather pay $1000/day than consequentially how much it costs to bus 3000 students across town b/c the roof isn't on and the building isn't certified.

 

[sactoking]

Originally posted by: MikeyIs4Dcats
There is a huge difference between liquidated damages and trying to enforce arbitrary penalties for not showing up for a day's work.

Liquidated penalties are generally enforcable, though some jurisdictions outlaw them without corresponding bonuses for early completion.

Proving actual damages and getting a judgement is a lot harder than you make it sound. Especially outside the commercial realm. You would have to prove actual damages (loss of business, costs of leasing alternate space, etc.).

If you try to cancel a contract simply because you feel the contractor has not shown up enough to your standards, you will at best be made to pay him his full profit for the contract, at worst, you will be denied and found in breech yourself. This is why completion dates are set, and until he has NOT met that, he is not in breech. You may serve 72hr notice of failure to perform, but if he responds favorably, you have no grounds for termination.

<Commercial GC for 10 year, working for a company over 90 years in business.

Contractually, there is no difference, but it has to be in the contract.

Getting consequential damages is not tough, if you have a construction attorney.

Canceling a contract for no shows is NOT a breach if it's in the contract. Again, language allowing the owner to terminate for cause for failure to provide adequate staffing is perfectly enforceable.

<Surety bond underwriter who reads more than a dozen contracts a day and is familiar with most of the western states and federal FAR>

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: sactoking

Originally posted by: bctbct
And how much does that cost you in the end? We bid jobs all the time that have liquidated damages and they are normally fast track jobs like school work. Contractors put money in their bid to cover themselves if they even have a hint they may be assessed them.

We also will not bid some jobs because we are smart enough to know the risk is too high...for example a university stadium that had 50k per day damages.

Obviously OP has not hired a typical contractor since he expects them to work the weekend.

Dont forget that there are many legit reasons that any contrator can use to wiggle out of damages.

Here it takes written notice and certified mail delivery to fire a contractor. So while the law may allow remedies, its a pain in the ass to actually do it.

You INCREASE your bid to account for LDs? That's rather backwards.

Contractors view LDs wrong. If you have your choice between a school contract and a school contract with $1000/day which is better, ceterus paribus? Contractors tell me all the time that the contract without LDs is better. That is WRONG. Absent a LD clause in the contract your subject to actual and consequential damages. I'd much rather pay $1000/day than consequentially how much it costs to bus 3000 students across town b/c the roof isn't on and the building isn't certified.

sure, you think contractors cant hedge risk? Truthfully missing a schedule is a bigger black eye than paying damages. Throw some money in the bid for OT. I am talking commercial work though...not residential.

You are not factoring in blame. I havent seen a complete, accurate set of drawings on a job in years.

Notify the architect of inaccuracies, count the days until he replies, submit lost days on pay request each month.

Like someone else said, you have to pin point who caused the delay and when...not so easy.

 

[Greenman]

Originally posted by: sactoking

Originally posted by: reallyscrued

Originally posted by: bctbct
oh, you're one of "those guys". We charge extra up front for you

I see.

So you charge extra if someone wants to be sure that their work is done on time?

What's the name of your business?

Agreed. That's why you ask for bids and THEN show them the contract language. The cost of the job should not be contingent upon the contract (barring particularly heinous language).

Why on earth would that make any difference at all? If I bid a project and there are conditions in the contract that affect the project cost I'll simply adjust my price accordingly.

 

[Greenman]

Originally posted by: sactoking

Originally posted by: MikeyIs4Dcats
contract language with penalties for "no shows" is not only likely unenforcable, but ridiculous.

I disagree, strongly.

A) Contract language that sets a firm date of completion is enforceable in every jurisdiction in the US

B) Contract language that sets liquidated damages if the completion date is not set is enforceable in every jurisdiction in the US

C) Absent a liquidated damages clause, pretty much every jurisdiction allows for consequential damages if the completion date is not met.

D) In every state I've done business in, clauses that state that "failure to provide adequate manpower to complete the job, at the discretion of Owner" is cause for termination have been enforceable.

I read 15-20 construction contracts a day and I state without reservation that penalizing contractors for not showing is not only legal, but an accepted business practice in the majority of the industry.

Liquidated damages clauses are generally only used on large projects. I've only once been asked to add a liquidated damages clause to a contract, I increased my bid price to cover the possibility of overtime and the owner decided he didn't need the clause.