Well, I mean, unless you were a class that couldn't solo and were unable to find a group. Those nights sucked. Badly. Or, say, if you played a class during a period where they were so bad they weren't wanted in raids. Or, say, if you were camping for a rare spawn, which could literally involve sitting and not moving for many hours.I played all the games mentioned. EQ was daunting, but it was a social, group game from the get go. You had fun the whole time, from day 1 to the end.
Well, I mean, unless you were a class that couldn't solo and were unable to find a group. Those nights sucked. Badly. Or, say, if you played a class during a period where they were so bad they weren't wanted in raids. Or, say, if you were camping for a rare spawn, which could literally involve sitting and not moving for many hours.
Prior to WoW, MMO's had a following, that was smaller, but still quite dedicated. People moved from one to the next if it was good. EQ2 was doing just fine before WoW, and still is going now.
I would bet MMO's would be more like many of us wish they were had WoW not come around and changed the game. They took a group necessary genre, with built in social qualities, and made it more accessible to the masses. Unfortunately for many of us who played MMO's prior to WoW, or even in Vanilla and Burning Crusades, we saw the genre move away from group necessary, tightly social games, into a solo friendly genre that has a much harder time retaining their players.
I played many MMOs leading up to WoW. EQ, AC, DAOC, AO, SB, etc. Some of my best memories were from the player created drama in SB but my experience in WoW Vanilla, BC, and some Wrath were by far my favorite in terms of the MMO genre.
I played many MMOs leading up to WoW. EQ, AC, DAOC, AO, SB, etc. Some of my best memories were from the player created drama in SB but my experience in WoW Vanilla, BC, and some Wrath were by far my favorite in terms of the MMO genre. I think part of that is because of the so called "dumbing down" and "simplification". As I got older and my game time decreased I found that to be a huge benefit.
How was FF12 influenced by WoW?
With FF12 they "westernized" the series to appeal to the kinds of people playing WoW. The format of every not-online previous Final Fantasy game (turn based menu driven battles, random encounters, etc.) was thrown out of the window.
I can't tell you how excited I was about FF12. I never wanted to play FF11 (or any MMORPG) so for me it didn't exist. But FF12 wasn't online anymore, and I figured that meant getting back to what Final Fantasies are all about. I preordered the game, went and picked it up day 1, and then proceeded to microwave the disc after playing the game for less than an hour. Heck I completely walked away from most mainstream gaming for a decade after FF12's WoWification I was so pissed off. I gave away my PS2.
Since that day I have prayed to the video game gods almost weekly for the series to completely crash and burn so that some JRPG phoenix could arise from the ashes. But here we sit in 2015 and Square is completely ignoring the success of Bravely Default as they also gut the JRPG elements out of FF7 in a remake. sigh. At least they gave me The After Years....
5.6 million * $15/month = $84 million per month.
I'm pretty sure Blizzard isn't too worried.
Hm, I think we talked about this in another thread.
Was it really made to be like WoW in a direct sense, or did WoW just influence the decision to move away from turn-based (which I'm OK with).
Either way, I do like how FF12 has no loading sequence on every battle. Surely that's not an integral part of the JRPG experience?
Final Fantasy 12 threw most of this formula out of the window. In fact the whole industry has outside of mobile games.
Ah, I see. Well, I edited my above post, I meant that I am OK with games being turn based. But I have to say, I enjoyed both FF12 and the games before it, the one thing I disliked of the others is the loading times in and out of combat, hate them with a passion!
You are only thinking of balance issues, which mostly didn't matter except for raiding, as everything else was made so easy, almost anything could tank.
I am talking about the whole purpose of an MMO. MMO's are social games at their core, and WotLK was when they started killing the social aspect of the game for new characters and especially new people to the game. Balance issues will always exist as long as classes are different.
WotLK started the downward spiral of killing off important social constructs in MMO's.
Examples:
1) Forming groups used to require a social interaction by talking to people. They also made your ability to play an important aspect as well, as people will remember if you suck or not. Taking away the need to form groups takes away a lot of social interaction needed to make friends in these games.
2) Cross server queues for groups made it where even if you managed to find someone you enjoyed grouping with, you couldn't talk to them again, because they were on another server.
3) In cross server RvR, you no longer had grudge matches, as no one ever showed up enough to remember.
4) Making almost everything so solo friendly, no one had a reason to group up before raiding any longer.
5) Making the elite dungeons so easy that any random group could complete easily, again made it so you no longer had to create core groups of friends to allow you to progress through them.
The only social aspect left is raiding and raiding is quite time consuming, so that leaves a lot of people out of that world. While I've done that a few times, it takes time to get geared up to be able to raid, which most people won't stick around for, due to the lack of social interaction up to that point.
If you have no friends, and lack the skill to make new friends, and lack the skill to function inside a guild, then yes, social games suck.LFG for Scholomance
LFG for Scholomance
LFG for Scholomance
LFG for Scholomance
*4 hours later*
LFG for Scholomance
Oh yeah, such a social game.
5.6 million * $15/month = $84 million per month.
I'm pretty sure Blizzard isn't too worried.
If you have no friends, and lack the skill to make new friends, and lack the skill to function inside a guild, then yes, social games suck.
I have very good memories of Scholomance in classic WoW. And Stratholm, DM, UBRS, and even LBRS. I only had problems finding groups for BRD. But once I got a few epic items, I could move around solo in BRD. I also enjoyed the heroic dungeons in TBC. But the dungeons in classic will always have a special place in my memories.
With Hearthstone, HoTS and StarCraft II, they're no longer an incredible game dev? If not incredible, still very credible.
- You mean mage, right? Elementalists weren't a thing in EQ.I played a class that was not wanted, but if you do make friends and show you can play your class well, eventually that is not a problem. I played an Elementalist and most people thought we were a liability. I helped change that perception on my server. I never raided much, although I did from time to time and I only camped spawns except while waiting on friends to get online.
Anyways, your post is the reason WoW turned out like it did, and turned the whole genre into a solo friendly genre. The only problem is the genre is terrible for solo play.
There definitely was problems with day one EQ, but Kunark, the 1st expansion, there was no excuse for camping. The only reason to camp in Sebilis, was to get to know people because none of your friends were online. That said, they could have improved drop rates for sure. I just took the a different approach to gaming in EQ than you. I didn't feel committed to a single object. Get what you could, when it dropped, and spend most your time dungeon crawling.
There were definitely 5 million people who had great memories of the game they played and got bit by the nostalgia bug. But I think you have to assume that least some of the group that didn't stick around wasn't going to stick around no matter how good WoD might have been. I think it's an open question as to how big that group is versus how many would have stuck around had WoD been better.Subscriptions soared during the release of WoD. They went back to 5 million players in the west. Do you know what that actually means ? It means there are 5 million people, maybe more, who are dying to play WoW. To play that awesome game from 2005-2010, of which they have great memories. They want that. They are willing to try again. But 3.5 million of those 5 million said: "know what ? the game sucks. I'm done". I'm not sure Activision realizes it. But there is a huge potential for them to earn $500+ million *more* per year than they do now. All they needed to do is execute. But they can't.
Wrath was awesome. Before Wrath, Warriors were far and away the best tank "for reasons". There was no balance at all. Remember any Tankadins? Pallies might as well have been given a second healing tree like Priests for all the good it was. For that matter if your class could heal, you DID heal. The other trees were trash. And Warriors speced for Fury outfitted in raid gear were like Rogues in plate, completely obliterating the hybrid dps Shadows and Rets and the like were doing.
The raid utility was so overboard that by TBC you had Paladins standing outside sunwell buffing everyone between wipes because the raid still needed their buffs, but needed room for boat loads of Shammies for their blood lust. What people played was dictated by the raid utility quota more than their preference in play style, and that utility quota was sky high. Wrath actually let to run with your friends, as opposed to "That guy who's a douche that unfortunately has the buff my raid needs".
You are only thinking of balance issues, which mostly didn't matter except for raiding, as everything else was made so easy, almost anything could tank.
I am talking about the whole purpose of an MMO. MMO's are social games at their core, and WotLK was when they started killing the social aspect of the game for new characters and especially new people to the game. Balance issues will always exist as long as classes are different.
WotLK started the downward spiral of killing off important social constructs in MMO's.
Examples:
1) Forming groups used to require a social interaction by talking to people. They also made your ability to play an important aspect as well, as people will remember if you suck or not. Taking away the need to form groups takes away a lot of social interaction needed to make friends in these games.
2) Cross server queues for groups made it where even if you managed to find someone you enjoyed grouping with, you couldn't talk to them again, because they were on another server.
3) In cross server RvR, you no longer had grudge matches, as no one ever showed up enough to remember.
4) Making almost everything so solo friendly, no one had a reason to group up before raiding any longer.
5) Making the elite dungeons so easy that any random group could complete easily, again made it so you no longer had to create core groups of friends to allow you to progress through them.
The only social aspect left is raiding and raiding is quite time consuming, so that leaves a lot of people out of that world. While I've done that a few times, it takes time to get geared up to be able to raid, which most people won't stick around for, due to the lack of social interaction up to that point.