Illegal US immigrants far likelier to be working than American men

[Subyman]

Right. I just made up the "Jobs Americans Won't Do (TM)" meme myself, right here, out of whole cloth. Just off the top of my head. No one's ever heard that before.

There is truth to the Jobs Americans Won't Do. It isn't exactly that they completely won't do a job, they simply won't do it for the same wage or speed that illegals do it. In some industries, such as farm work, paying a wage that will bring Americans to the job site to work the same speed as an illegal is cost prohibitive.

Take, for example, Alabama's HB 56 which wiped out illegal farm labor in the state was a good test case. In some cases, the farmers purchased machines to do the work, so no new jobs were created.

"This is a sector and an industry ... that a long time ago, going back to the 1940s and probably before that was abandoned," Papademetriou said. "It was abandoned to foreign workers."

Stan Eury, executive director of the North Carolina Growers Association, said location matters, too.

"Agriculture jobs are primarily in remote, rural areas. We see higher numbers of unemployed people in the big cities," he said.

Tomato farmer Wayne Smith said he has never been able to keep a staff of American workers in his 25 years of farming.

"People in Alabama are not going to do this," said Smith, who grows about 75 acres of tomatoes in the northeast part of the state. "They'd work one day and then just wouldn't show up again."

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/44981872/ns/us_news-life/

Morgan Spurlock embedded himself in an illegal immigrant family in a show called 30 Days (season 2 episode 1.) The speed at which they worked was insane. The key was their culture where the whole working family would hit the fields in a synchronized display of highly efficient harvesting. The typical American has a completely different view on labor than what is required in the type of ag work migrant laborers perform.

However, I think we've turned a blind eye to the exploitation of illegal labor for too long. Illegal labor has been relied on too much since the 20's when Americans by and large left the fields for factory jobs. I don't think Americans will want to move back to farm work, that seems regressive. IMO we need strong and relatively inexpensive legal migrant work policies. As of right now, it is very burdensome for smaller farms to hire through legal channels.

 

[SMOGZINN]

The saddest (and BLAZINGLY IRONIC) thing to me,

The saddest, and blazingly ironic, thing to me is that you think that slavery and low wages are any way similar.

So much so that we witness the idiotic idea that anyone hispanic is supposed to be RAH RAH for illegal immigration to the point of absolute hatred for anyone whose against it because it's somehow racist to NOT want to let people get away with exploiting their fellow race, at the expense of themselves and other Americans.

You think they are being exploited because you have never lived in a place where owning a pair of shoes is considered a luxury. Where the extended family might own a radio, but everyone has to chip in to afford batteries for it, so that the family can listen to an hour of music a night, because any more would be prohibitively expensive.

You are so spoiled by your extreme wealth that you never even stop to think that even those low wages that you are equating to slavery is a major life changing improvement for the people coming here to earn them. The RAH RAH for illegal immigration because they know what poverty really looks like, and that the lowest bum living in a cardboard box has it many times better then the average person from where they come from.

Did we try the "given a legal path to citizenship" for MILLION and MILLION of ILLEGALS in the 80's during Reagan's administration? Sure we did. What was the result? Do we have MORE or LESS of ILLEGALS now? Of course MORE and MORE, MILLION and MILLION MORE.

Yes, by those million and million that we made citizens. This is pretty easy math.

I mean, let's stop a minute and think about this.. do you really believe that do the same thing over and over again but expect different result is NOT stupid/insanity/crazy?

What result are you wanting? To end the illegal immigration problem? That is not going to happen until America is no longer better then the poverty that they come from. The goal of making them citizens was to bring them into the fold, to make them officially productive members of our society. That it succeeded at.

One more thing, there is no such thing as "undocumented". Try to go to Mexico or anywhere on Earth and pull the "undocumented" excuse when you do not have permission to stay in a sovereign nation and see what the local enforcement will say to you.

Illegal immigrant is a terrible term. It is like someone breaking into your house and you calling him an illegal houseguest. Undocumented is simply a better term. The person is not illegal, the action of coming here with out documentation, the act of working with out documentation is.

 

[Svnla]

Yes, by those million and million that we made citizens. This is pretty easy math.

What result are you wanting? To end the illegal immigration problem? That is not going to happen until America is no longer better then the poverty that they come from. The goal of making them citizens was to bring them into the fold, to make them officially productive members of our society. That it succeeded at.



Illegal immigrant is a terrible term. It is like someone breaking into your house and you calling him an illegal houseguest. Undocumented is simply a better term. The person is not illegal, the action of coming here with out documentation, the act of working with out documentation is.

So reward bad behavior/law breaking is ok? So let them ILLEGALS to become citizens ahead of people that wait for YEARS and YEARS to do it LEGALLY is ok? Gotcha. Why even bother to have immigration rule and law? What's that old saying? Something about rewarding bad behavior = will get more bad behavior. So we let about 6 MILLIONS of ILLEGALS to become citizens during the 80s and now we have EVEN MORE ILLEGALS but you guys are saying let do it again, bigger and more ILLEGALS. Hoooooray. Why bother to let in smart LEGALS such as Elon Musk, let get more of the unskilled ILLEGALS to compete with the poor in the US. Not very smart there.

I want the LEGALS to become citizens BEFORE the ILLEGALS. Is that too much to ask? Is that too much to ask people to follow immigration law and others to stop encouraging/supporting ILLEGALS?

Terrible term? OMG. A bleeding heart. Why bother to say "rapist"? How about "uninvited sex partner"? Why bother to say "burglar"? How about "unlicensed items collector"? Why bother to say "murderer"? How about "accidentally life taker"? Do you see how stupid it is?

How about stop breaking immigration law and do it the LEGALS way? No more excuses. Enough is enough.

No answer to this statement?

Try to go to Mexico or anywhere on Earth and pull the "undocumented" excuse when you do not have permission to stay in a sovereign nation and see what the local enforcement will say to you.

. Go ahead. I will wait.

 

[SMOGZINN]

So reward bad behavior/law breaking is ok?

You are very concerned about punishing people that you see as having done something bad. This is a very childish way of looking at the world. I prefer to solve problems than making sure that 'bad guys' get what is coming to them.

Why even bother to have immigration rule and law?

Perhaps we should be adult enough to admit that our laws are not accomplishing the goals that those laws were created for and instead of trying to punish people for breaking those bad laws we should change them.

Immigration is not like murder or stealing. This is not a moral issue. This is a technical one. Immigration laws are put into place to accomplish a goal. Our current laws do not accomplish that goal, so we need to change them. Blaming people that do not share our goal for not cooperating with us is stupid.

Terrible term? OMG. A bleeding heart.

I do have compassion, but more importantly I'm a realist. I solve problems. I don't really care who is in the wrong or right. I want to find a solution, and I'm not unreasonably attached to a specific methodology of reaching that solution as you seem to be.

Why bother to say "rapist"? How about "uninvited sex partner"? Why bother to say "burglar"? How about "unlicensed items collector"? Why bother to say "murderer"? How about "accidentally life taker"? Do you see how stupid it is?

I prefer to focus on the problem and not attempt to create some false moral hazard out of the issue. the term illegal immigrant attempts to do just that, while I prefer to use the label 'undocumented' because that is the real issue we are dealing with, one of documentation and control. That is why you are so angry about the issue, you have made it into a moral hazard, when really it is more of an issue of logistics.

 

[Svnla]

You are very concerned about punishing people that you see as having done something bad. This is a very childish way of looking at the world. I prefer to solve problems than making sure that 'bad guys' get what is coming to them.

Perhaps we should be adult enough to admit that our laws are not accomplishing the goals that those laws were created for and instead of trying to punish people for breaking those bad laws we should change them.

Immigration is not like murder or stealing. This is not a moral issue. This is a technical one. Immigration laws are put into place to accomplish a goal. Our current laws do not accomplish that goal, so we need to change them. Blaming people that do not share our goal for not cooperating with us is stupid.

I do have compassion, but more importantly I'm a realist. I solve problems. I don't really care who is in the wrong or right. I want to find a solution, and I'm not unreasonably attached to a specific methodology of reaching that solution as you seem to be.

I prefer to focus on the problem and not attempt to create some false moral hazard out of the issue. the term illegal immigrant attempts to do just that, while I prefer to use the label 'undocumented' because that is the real issue we are dealing with, one of documentation and control. That is why you are so angry about the issue, you have made it into a moral hazard, when really it is more of an issue of logistics.

You still do not get it, don't you?

So by your logic, why punish rapists/murders/killers and throw them in jails for years, why not set them free? Problems solved. No more cost to process them in court, no more cost to put them in jails and so on. I am sure you and those ILLEGALS supporters would be fine for them "uninvited sex partners" and "unlicensed life takers" to live in your neighborhood, right?

Our laws are NOT working because we let them NOT working. We know for a fact that big AMNESTY did not work so why not enforce the current law and not give them ILLEGALS another HUGE AMNESTY? Why reward bad behavior when we know for a fact that reward bad behavior = more bad behavior?


You do NOT want to solve a HUGE problem of ILLEGAL immigration, you and others that support ILLEGALS just want to continue to give them another HUGE AMNESTY, just like we did during the 80's but now for even more ILLEGALS.

AGAIN, I and MILLIONS of US citizens want EVERYONE to follow immigration law and regulation, not just for a few and let hordes and hordes of ILLEGALS to sneak in and then give them a free pass to citizenship while million and million wait for years to get it LEGALLY, again.

Still NO ANSWER to my question above? Here it is again.

Try to go to Mexico or anywhere on Earth and pull the "undocumented" excuse when you do not have permission to stay in a sovereign nation and see what the local enforcement will say to you.

What is the matter? Don't be a hypocrite.

 

[SMOGZINN]

So by your logic, why punish rapists/murders/killers and throw them in jails for years, why not set them free?

I don't care about punishing rapists/murders/killers. It is a waste of our societies resources. We should instead be working on rehabilitating them, or just permanently removing them from society. Punishing them and then releasing them back into our communities to do it again is one of the most insane things our society has done.

You do NOT want to solve a HUGE problem of ILLEGAL immigration, you and others that support ILLEGALS just want to continue to give them another HUGE AMNESTY, just like we did during the 80's but now for even more ILLEGALS.

I guess you need to decide on what problem you want to solve with these laws. If you are wanting to solve the problem of having undocumented workers then amnesty is a good solution. If you want to have less people then we need to think of other things. What we are doing is not working, either because the laws are not as easy to enforce as we think, or we simply don't have the will to do so, or perhaps for a third reason we haven't found yet. Any way around it doubling down on a failed system is not a winning strategy.

Still NO ANSWER to my question above? Here it is again. What is the matter? Don't be a hypocrite.

A lot like your argument, your question is nonsensical. I don't care about what other countries would do in a hypothetical nonsensical situation. Reframing the problem from a moral issue, to a logistical one is not an excuse to get away with anything. It is a different way to look at the situation.

One again you show a whole lot of anger at the issue. This is not a moral issue, why are you so mad?

 

[Svnla]

I don't care about punishing rapists/murders/killers. It is a waste of our societies resources. We should instead be working on rehabilitating them, or just permanently removing them from society. Punishing them and then releasing them back into our communities to do it again is one of the most insane things our society has done.

I guess you need to decide on what problem you want to solve with these laws. If you are wanting to solve the problem of having undocumented workers then amnesty is a good solution. If you want to have less people then we need to think of other things. What we are doing is not working, either because the laws are not as easy to enforce as we think, or we simply don't have the will to do so, or perhaps for a third reason we haven't found yet. Any way around it doubling down on a failed system is not a winning strategy.

A lot like your argument, your question is nonsensical. I don't care about what other countries would do in a hypothetical nonsensical situation. Reframing the problem from a moral issue, to a logistical one is not an excuse to get away with anything. It is a different way to look at the situation.

One again you show a whole lot of anger at the issue. This is not a moral issue, why are you so mad?

I can't debate with someone with your attitude (let wrongdoers get off).

These 3 items are UNDISPUTABLE FACTS:

1. The US did have a huge AMNESTY for about 6 MILLION (IIRC) of ILLEGALS during the 80's. We were told that things would be better because of that AMNESTY.

2. At the present time, there are at least 11 MILLION (could be 15 million or even 20 million or more, no one knows for sure the number but there are a lot MORE of ILLEGALS now vs. the 80's) in the US and there are people like you want to do another HUGE AMNESTY for ILLEGALS just because the last one worked out so great...NOT!!! And you have the nerve to say my points are nonsensical?

3. We have immigration laws and regulations as any sovereign nation would have and EVERYONE should follow them. Not just this group and that group but some other groups should NOT. Things do not work that way.

Yet you and people like you just want reward ILLEGALS for their blatantly/willfully act of defiance of US immigration laws/regulations by offering them citizenship.

Enough is enough. No more excuses.

I am not angry as you claimed several times. I want EVERYONE. TO. FOLLOW. IMMIGRATION. LAW.

PERIOD.

Not hard to understand.

 

[Subyman]

I can't debate with someone with your attitude (let wrongdoers get off).

These 3 items are UNDISPUTABLE FACTS:

1. The US did have a huge AMNESTY for about 6 MILLION (IIRC) of ILLEGALS during the 80's. We were told that things would be better because of that AMNESTY.

2. At the present time, at least 11 MILLION (could be 15 or even 20 or more, no one knows for sure the number but a lot of ILLEGALS) in the US and there are people like you want to do another HUGE AMNESTY for ILLEGALS just because the last one worked out so great...NOT!!! And you have the nerve to say my points are nonsensical?

3. We have immigration laws and regulations as any sovereign nation would have and EVERYONE should follow them.

Yet you and people like you just want reward ILLEGALS for their blatantly/willfully act of defiance of US immigration laws/regulations by offering them citizenship.

Enough is enough. No more excuses.

I am not angry as you claimed several times. I want EVERYONE. TO. FOLLOW. IMMIGRATION. LAW.

PERIOD.

Not hard to understand.

Can you prove that the US was not better off by the 6 million that were given amnesty? There are two separate issues here. The amnesty did not have anything to do with the 11 million undocumented immigrants here now. The problem is that we did nothing to stop the flow of undocumented workers. We solved a symptom but didn't change our policies to prevent this from happening again.

You can wish all you want that people will follow the immigration laws, but there are your wishes and what reality is. Obviously the immigration laws aren't working. Unless you want to wage a very, very costly "War on Immigration" to enforce those laws we need to figure out a better way to legally accommodate the work demand for the betterment of our society.

 

[SMOGZINN]

I can't debate with someone with your attitude (let wrongdoers get off).

Still all hung up on making sure that 'bad guys' get what is coming to them with out any care if it actually works? It has long been known that punishment is not a very good motivator or teacher.

These 3 items are UNDISPUTABLE FACTS:

Let me dispute your so called facts.

1. The US did have a huge AMNESTY for about 6 MILLION (IIRC) of ILLEGALS during the 80's. We were told that things would be better because of that AMNESTY.

And the 80-90's were pretty damn good. Maybe you are too young to remember, but the amnesty did not hurt us one bit, in fact it seemed to work.

2. At the present time, there are at least 11 MILLION (could be 15 million or even 20 million or more, no one knows for sure the number but there are a lot MORE of ILLEGALS now vs. the 80's) in the US and there are people like you want to do another HUGE AMNESTY for ILLEGALS just because the last one worked out so great...NOT!!! And you have the nerve to say my points are nonsensical?

Because, as I'm pointing, out they are. You seem to only be interested in the fact that someone broke the rules without even considering if those rules are any good. For any measurement other than 'do we still have illegals' amnesty worked. We made a whole bunch of new tax paying citizens, removed a whole bunch of people that would otherwise be, as you keep pointing out, criminals, and nothing bad happened.

3. We have immigration laws and regulations as any sovereign nation would have and EVERYONE should follow them. Not just this group and that group but some other groups should NOT. Things do not work that way.

How quaint. Stamp your foot some more. Maybe that will work this time.

I am not angry as you claimed several times. I want EVERYONE. TO. FOLLOW. IMMIGRATION. LAW.

So much anger. They are wrong! Punish them!
What purpose would that serve? Really? That is the question. Why should we spend a whole bunch of resources enforcing laws that don't accomplish any goal?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I can't debate with someone with your attitude (let wrongdoers get off).

These 3 items are UNDISPUTABLE FACTS:

1. The US did have a huge AMNESTY for about 6 MILLION (IIRC) of ILLEGALS during the 80's. We were told that things would be better because of that AMNESTY.

2. At the present time, there are at least 11 MILLION (could be 15 million or even 20 million or more, no one knows for sure the number but there are a lot MORE of ILLEGALS now vs. the 80's) in the US and there are people like you want to do another HUGE AMNESTY for ILLEGALS just because the last one worked out so great...NOT!!! And you have the nerve to say my points are nonsensical?

3. We have immigration laws and regulations as any sovereign nation would have and EVERYONE should follow them. Not just this group and that group but some other groups should NOT. Things do not work that way.

Yet you and people like you just want reward ILLEGALS for their blatantly/willfully act of defiance of US immigration laws/regulations by offering them citizenship.

Enough is enough. No more excuses.

I am not angry as you claimed several times. I want EVERYONE. TO. FOLLOW. IMMIGRATION. LAW.

PERIOD.

Not hard to understand.

says the guy who's sig reads like it was written by someone who's had a passing acquaintance with english grammar

 

[Svnla]

says the guy who's sig reads like it was written by someone who's had a passing acquaintance with english grammar

Do you have anything to say about my post? Don't like my sig? Too bad.

Oh, it is "English" and not "english" and a sentence should start with a capitalization.


What's that old saying? Those that live in the glass house...

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Do you have anything to say about my post? Don't like my sig? Too bad.

Oh, it is "English" and not "english" and a sentence should start with a capitalization.


What's that old saying? Those that live in the glass house...

intentionally left in lower case. I rarely capitalize religions, countries, etc. prattle on, prattle on.
and your post was already deconstructed by the previous posters.

 

[Svnla]

Still all hung up on making sure that 'bad guys' get what is coming to them with out any care if it actually works? It has long been known that punishment is not a very good motivator or teacher.


Let me dispute your so called facts.


And the 80-90's were pretty damn good. Maybe you are too young to remember, but the amnesty did not hurt us one bit, in fact it seemed to work.



Because, as I'm pointing, out they are. You seem to only be interested in the fact that someone broke the rules without even considering if those rules are any good. For any measurement other than 'do we still have illegals' amnesty worked. We made a whole bunch of new tax paying citizens, removed a whole bunch of people that would otherwise be, as you keep pointing out, criminals, and nothing bad happened.



How quaint. Stamp your foot some more. Maybe that will work this time.



So much anger. They are wrong! Punish them!
What purpose would that serve? Really? That is the question. Why should we spend a whole bunch of resources enforcing laws that don't accomplish any goal?

So by your own statements, the US was better during the 80's because of those 6 million ILLEGALS? Do you have anything to back up that statement or you are talking out of your butt?

Seem to work? You mean as in even MORE ILLEGALS now? Your definition of "seem to work" is not the same as mine for sure.

Oh, you seem to forget to mention MS-13 and other Latino gangs and other problems associated with ILLEGALS. Funny how no sovereign nation on Earth would jump in and take all the ILLEGALS just because you and other ILLEGALS supporters say so. Why is that? They must be stupid and not as smart as you guys?

How pathetic and ridiculous. Admit even more ILLEGALS with no skill to compete with the poor in the US. Very smart there. NOT!!!

No job, no housing, no citizenship, heavy fines/assets forfeit for those that harbor ILLEGALS. Let try that first before another AMNESTY.

intentionally left in lower case. I rarely capitalize religions, countries, etc. prattle on, prattle on.
and your post was already deconstructed by the previous posters.

As I said, those that live in the glass house shall not cast the first stone. And the debate is about ILLEGALS, not my sig.

Do you have anything to dispute/debate with my previous post that you quoted?

 

[Brian Stirling]

Much easier to get away with under paying and not even paying for hours worked when your worker has no recourse to complain.

It actually more formal than that. Companies like Walmart hire labor contractors to do things like cleaning and they therefore don't actually hire the workers themselves. If some/many/all of the workers are illegal and some/many/all are being paid sub minimum wages that's not Walmart's problem as they can just say, "hey, we hired the contractor in good faith and we did not know they were exploiting the workers". They then hire a new labor contractor where some/many/all of the workers are illegal and some/many/all are being paid below minimum wage.

Walmart is not alone in this...


Brian

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

So by your own statements, the US was better during the 80's because of those 6 million ILLEGALS? Do you have anything to back up that statement or you are talking out of your butt?

Seem to work? You mean as in even MORE ILLEGALS now? Your definition of "seem to work" is not the same as mine for sure.

Oh, you seem to forget to mention MS-13 and other Latino gangs and other problems associated with ILLEGALS. Funny how no sovereign nation on Earth would jump in and take all the ILLEGALS just because you and other ILLEGALS supporters say so. Why is that? They must be stupid and not as smart as you guys?

How pathetic and ridiculous. Admit even more ILLEGALS with no skill to compete with the poor in the US. Very smart there. NOT!!!

No job, no housing, no citizenship, heavy fines/assets forfeit for those that harbor ILLEGALS. Let try that first before another AMNESTY.



As I said, those that live in the glass house shall not cast the first stone. And the debate is about ILLEGALS, not my sig.

Do you have anything to dispute/debate with my previous post that you quoted?

Yes, punish the ever-loving shit out of the companies that are hiring them. Make it financially impossible for them to want to hire illegal immigrants. Personally I cannot vilify someone wanting to have a better life, and that's why most immigrants come here, is it not?

 

[Svnla]

Yes, punish the ever-loving shit out of the companies that are hiring them. Make it financially impossible for them to want to hire illegal immigrants. Personally I cannot vilify someone wanting to have a better life, and that's why most immigrants come here, is it not?

Agreed.

I have no problem with anyone that wants to have better life but they must do it the LEGAL way. No, it is not easy because million and million around the world are waiting for years and years to get in.

But we can not do another amnesty for those that were here ILLEGALLY. If we do that, is it fair for those that wait and wait? And why even bother to have a border and immigration law if we keep handing out amnesty after amnesty?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Agreed.

I have no problem with anyone that wants to have better life but they must do it the LEGAL way. No, it is not easy because million and million around the world are waiting for years and years to get in.

But we can not do another amnesty for those that were here ILLEGALLY. If we do that, is it fair for those that wait and wait? And why even bother to have a border and immigration law if we keep handing out amnesty after amnesty?

why not cease the incentive to attempt to come here illegally? You keep going after the minnows, go after the whale man.

 

[soundforbjt]

You start jailing those that hire illegals and you'll see it stop. Obviously stiff fines are not a deterrent.

 

[Svnla]

why not cease the incentive to attempt to come here illegally? You keep going after the minnows, go after the whale man.

That's why I said earlier in my post that heavy fines and assets forfeit for those that harbor/employ ILLEGALS.

And then no offer of job, housing, citizenship for ILLEGALS. Let try those first before we offer another amnesty.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

That's why I said earlier in my post that heavy fines and assets forfeit for those that harbor/employe ILLEGALS.

And then no offer of job, housing, citizenship for ILLEGALS. Let try those first before we offer another amnesty.

treat those hiring illegals with the same vitriol used for the immigrants themselves. jail. end of story, and most likely, end of problem, or the problem will dramatically decrease.

 

[Zaap]

treat those hiring illegals with the same vitriol used for the immigrants themselves. jail. end of story, and most likely, end of problem, or the problem will dramatically decrease.

Sounds like we all agree with this: punish those using illegal labor severely.

This is not that much more dificult than if we as a nation decided the laws against having sweatshops full of 12 year olds chained to work benches were too dificult to enforce.

But of course NO they aren't. Anyone caught doing that would be tossed UNDER a freakin jail.

We as a nation need to reattach the same stigma and attitude of "we will not look the other way for this" with cheating businesses that hire illegals same as we would if the floated bullshit was no one can afford anything unless 12 yr olds are making it.

 

[soundforbjt]

There's already stiff fines, it doesn't work. Jail/prison would work, but will never happen to the almighty job creators.

 

[chucky2]

You start jailing those that hire illegals and you'll see it stop. Obviously stiff fines are not a deterrent.

On a farm that would work, if there was an easily and sure fire way of verification of legal status for each person.

What are you going to do for all the sheetrock, painting, roofing, framing, electrical, automotive, and on and on? WhoTF is going to police all that?

I'll give you an example:

I live in an area that is mostly Black, some Latino but not really that much (call it 10%). When people have workers coming over in this area, you'd expect them to be Black right? Wrong. They're nearly all Latino. How bad do you think this will be in area where Latino actually are in real (official) numbers?

The fact of the matter is, if the border/visas weren't intentionally policed at such joke levels and manners, it wouldn't matter what the demand for illegal labor was: There wouldn't be enough illegals around to fill close to the job demand. Both sides of the aisle in DC have done their absolute best to make sure the exact opposite is the case, for decades, and people wonder why absolutely no one (save for the people that want as many illegals/Open Borders as possible) trusts a f*cking letter that comes out of anyone in DC on the matter. Oh, you passed a fancy new law, with conditions? Outstanding! You don't bother to enforce the current laws for decades, why would we expect you to enforce these new conditions? Oh...trust you. Rrrriiigghhhttt.....

 

[Zaap]

There is truth to the Jobs Americans Won't Do. It isn't exactly that they completely won't do a job, they simply won't do it for the same wage or speed that illegals do it. In some industries, such as farm work, paying a wage that will bring Americans to the job site to work the same speed as an illegal is cost prohibitive.

Of course everyone knows that the whole JAWD is a farce. Of course an American won't do a job that used to pay well, that's since been turned into a shit job because now illegal labor is expected to do it- that's the whole point.


Also, all these arguments that illegal immigrants are magically superior to Americans and are speedier etc. is an obvious myth.

Now sure, if you take some city slicker and expect him to just jump into farm work, he's going to be slower- but there are plenty of Americans that do farm work. 80% of farm labor in this country is done by Americans.

Now what's funny is, I just said that and there are probably some people that will gasp and act shocked. I mean, how astounding is it that you'll probably find around the freakin' globe that in ANY given country, it's mostly people IN those countries that do the majority of the work!

Shocking stuff! Wait, so you mean most French agriculture is done by French people and most German... and so and and so on? EVERYONE isn't just depending on a stream of illegal labor from their exploited third world neighbor in order to be able to afford food and build and fix things??

REALLY!!?!!

Shocking I know.

Hell, we too used to be a nation of mostly farmers, and not all that long ago. The idea that Americans can't farm, grow their own food, raise livestock, etc. is a fucking joke- but current generations really do believe that all the rest of their fellow countrymen are incapable of doing anything labor intensive.

Also, anothe thing- this subject always gets boiled down to farm labor- people forget that the feilds of work that have been overtaken by illegal labor have grown way beyond that. So Americans can't do contruction work? They can't do landscaping? They can't look after someone's kids properly? They can't do meat packing? Shipping, plumbling, electrical on and on and on...?

What a lot of that "illegals will do things faster.." stuff really boils down to is, illegals will often do things out of bounds with proper, legal and non-exploitive labor practices because they fear for their illegal status and have very little to no voice to protest shitty working conditions.


I'm not swayed by the fact that many have just gotten used to slave-level expectations placed on them- it's ILLEGAL labor. If you're worked half to death- so what? Move aside so the next guy crossing the border can take your place.

Americans shouldn't have to compete with that crap in their own country- not in any occupation.

The whine of businesses "We can't find anyone to do the work!" is a bunch of horseshit as well- once again, of course you'll have trouble finding people to do the work of the plantation system you've set up- shitty conditions, low pay. The whole industry needs to operate within the bounds of proper labor laws.

In every other topic, it's always why doesn't America do things like Europe or the rest of the world?

Well my question is- can many places in the rest of the world freakin' feed themselves and have all the things done that illegals here are doing- WITHOUT a Mexico right next door to exploit?

If the answer to that is yes (which fucking DUH it is) then why don't we for once look at how others do it, and emulate that?

 

[chucky2]

Why? Because you're a racist, misogynist, xenophobe! Damnit I'll pay $10k/yr per illegal high school student so I don't have to pay .10c/lb more for my US Citizen picked lettuce! <queue dumbf*ck tears>