Illegal US immigrants far likelier to be working than American men

[Zaap]

On a farm that would work, if there was an easily and sure fire way of verification of legal status for each person.

What are you going to do for all the sheetrock, painting, roofing, framing, electrical, automotive, and on and on? WhoTF is going to police all that?

Oh puuulease.

The government can comb through any business with a fine toothed comb and an army of tax lawers for every single solitary penny owed them in taxes.

But they can't keep track of large amounts of people employed illegally? Total bullshit.

Businesses have to have records and books for everyone they employ, file tax and insurance documents on their behalf, and all of those employed have to file tax returns. It wouldn't be hard at all to spot gross violators of labor and immigration laws by spotting the obvious gaps in this that an honest business wouln't have.

There's just simply an attitude of look the other way- purposefully in place for political reasons.

 

[chucky2]

For any of the legal businesses, sure. What about the illegal who runs his own business who the lady who bought the foreclosure next door used to get her entire home fixed up for $3500? How do you plan on policing him?

 

[Fern]

I see in this thread that all of those big businesses and others that break the law by hiring illegals are getting another free pass........as usual.

Meh. I think this whole "Big Businesses" hire illegal workers is nothing but a myth.

As a CPA in an area with a ton of illegal immigrants I see them in a few places, none of which are "Big Business". It's way too much trouble for "Big Businesses" that would have a large payroll and HR Dept's. (1) They're simply not going to hire someone with no SS# and (2) and fake or stolen SS#'s result in letters from the IRS about SS matching problems etc. Too much trouble.

For some reason most people seem to think that employers aren't subject to fines, penalties or worse for hiring illegals. That's flat out incorrect; we have a number of laws on the books. Big businesses have HR people and lawyers that know this.

Where I see them employed:

- Most work for Mexicans etc, who may or may not be illegal, in trades such as landscaping, roofing, painting and other low skill construction jobs. I can't recall ever seeing one of these businesses that files tax returns or pays taxes.

- They work in small (light) manufacturing businesses owned by an American. Annual gross sales of around $1 million or less. They are low paying menial jobs requiring little to no skills. When they get an IRS letter about a matching SS# problem they get let go and the employer brings in another.

- Every once in a while I'll see one hired in a small (American owned) business like a restaurant and they do dish washing etc. When the inevitable IRS letter comes, move on to the next illegal.

I have never, ever seen one that will work for below min wage. They want to be paid in cash, and they pay in cash. Off the grid; generally they have no bank acct due to lack of paperwork etc. They send the extra money/savings back to Mexico every week or so.

Paying under the table: Any decent biz person knows this is a bad deal. If it's paid under the table they can't deduct it and that makes it all the more expensive. The only way to get around that is to pay them with unreported (cash) income, but now you're getting in deep. You've got to worry about everybody from state sales tax auditors to the IRS. Most know it's not worth it.

So most I've seen work for themselves or another illegal.

Weird story: Once I was scouting a factory site for a client. Heard of a large site on the outskirts of town with access to an interstate - perfect for a factory. Went to site with the owner and his agent, and lo and behold, when we got there we found illegals were farming his land, there were a dozen or so working there at the time. Owner was like "WTF?". They had done a beautiful job growing beans, tomatoes and such. America - land of free farm land. Can't beat it!

Fern

 

[Fern]

It actually more formal than that. Companies like Walmart hire labor contractors to do things like cleaning and they therefore don't actually hire the workers themselves. If some/many/all of the workers are illegal and some/many/all are being paid sub minimum wages that's not Walmart's problem as they can just say, "hey, we hired the contractor in good faith and we did not know they were exploiting the workers". They then hire a new labor contractor where some/many/all of the workers are illegal and some/many/all are being paid below minimum wage.

Walmart is not alone in this...


Brian

True. The contracting business will be owned by a legal or US citizen. That Walmart can file all the necessary IRS reporting forms etc. I've seen that too.

Fern

 

[chucky2]

And that right there is why employer only enforcement isn't going to work (and the Pro-"Immigrant" crowd knows this, it's why they want to latch onto it as the "solution").

 

[Fern]

-snip-
Illegal immigrant is a terrible term. It is like someone breaking into your house and you calling him an illegal houseguest. Undocumented is simply a better term. The person is not illegal, the action of coming here with out documentation, the act of working with out documentation is.

Please. They immigrated here illegally so they are illegal immigrants.

Fern

 

[Fern]

-snip-
And the 80-90's were pretty damn good. Maybe you are too young to remember, but the amnesty did not hurt us one bit, in fact it seemed to work.

WTH is your definition of worked?

Nothing got solved. It was just an incentive for others for to illegally immigrate.

Fern

 

[skull]

I say we trade hard working illegals for american moochers. Lifes too hard to get your lazy ass to work? Fine see how hard it is to live in mexico.

 

[michal1980]

I say we trade hard working illegals for american moochers. Lifes too hard to get your lazy ass to work? Fine see how hard it is to live in mexico.

mexico wouldn't allow that. They are all to happy to export their excess labor pool instead of providing jobs for them.

 

[zinfamous]

I say we trade hard working illegals for american moochers. Lifes too hard to get your lazy ass to work? Fine see how hard it is to live in mexico.

agreed. most of them vote for Trump, too, so it'd be a win-win-win.

 

[Subyman]

Of course everyone knows that the whole JAWD is a farce. Of course an American won't do a job that used to pay well, that's since been turned into a shit job because now illegal labor is expected to do it- that's the whole point.


Also, all these arguments that illegal immigrants are magically superior to Americans and are speedier etc. is an obvious myth.

Now sure, if you take some city slicker and expect him to just jump into farm work, he's going to be slower- but there are plenty of Americans that do farm work. 80% of farm labor in this country is done by Americans.

Now what's funny is, I just said that and there are probably some people that will gasp and act shocked. I mean, how astounding is it that you'll probably find around the freakin' globe that in ANY given country, it's mostly people IN those countries that do the majority of the work!

Shocking stuff! Wait, so you mean most French agriculture is done by French people and most German... and so and and so on? EVERYONE isn't just depending on a stream of illegal labor from their exploited third world neighbor in order to be able to afford food and build and fix things??

REALLY!!?!!

Shocking I know.

Hell, we too used to be a nation of mostly farmers, and not all that long ago. The idea that Americans can't farm, grow their own food, raise livestock, etc. is a fucking joke- but current generations really do believe that all the rest of their fellow countrymen are incapable of doing anything labor intensive.

Also, anothe thing- this subject always gets boiled down to farm labor- people forget that the feilds of work that have been overtaken by illegal labor have grown way beyond that. So Americans can't do contruction work? They can't do landscaping? They can't look after someone's kids properly? They can't do meat packing? Shipping, plumbling, electrical on and on and on...?

What a lot of that "illegals will do things faster.." stuff really boils down to is, illegals will often do things out of bounds with proper, legal and non-exploitive labor practices because they fear for their illegal status and have very little to no voice to protest shitty working conditions.


I'm not swayed by the fact that many have just gotten used to slave-level expectations placed on them- it's ILLEGAL labor. If you're worked half to death- so what? Move aside so the next guy crossing the border can take your place.

Americans shouldn't have to compete with that crap in their own country- not in any occupation.

The whine of businesses "We can't find anyone to do the work!" is a bunch of horseshit as well- once again, of course you'll have trouble finding people to do the work of the plantation system you've set up- shitty conditions, low pay. The whole industry needs to operate within the bounds of proper labor laws.

In every other topic, it's always why doesn't America do things like Europe or the rest of the world?

Well my question is- can many places in the rest of the world freakin' feed themselves and have all the things done that illegals here are doing- WITHOUT a Mexico right next door to exploit?

If the answer to that is yes (which fucking DUH it is) then why don't we for once look at how others do it, and emulate that?

Uhm, I don't know where you get your numbers, but 80% of farm labor is not American labor. 6 out of 10 farm workers are undocumented:

While farm workers run the gamut of being U.S. citizens, legal permanent residents, seasonal laborers on special guest worker visas, or undocumented workers, most are affected by immigration status; it is estimated that at least 6 out of 10 of our country’s farm workers are undocumented (Southern Poverty Law Center). The vast majority of workers–78%, according to the most recent National Agricultural Workers Survey– is foreign-born and crossed a border to get here (NAWS, Farmworker Justice).

Nearly 80% are foreign born.

http://nfwm.org/education-center/farm-worker-issues/farm-workers-immigration/

You have it backwards.

FWIW, you are a city slicker I live in a rural town where the biggest export is corn and soy. My family leases farm land.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

<long post>

I don't get it, if businesses are so afraid of hiring illegals, then where are they finding work? They can't ALL be doing landscaping and maid work and etc. Are most farms owned by small businesses? Because I would assume that isn't the case.

 

[Subyman]

I don't get it, if businesses are so afraid of hiring illegals, then where are they finding work? They can't ALL be doing landscaping and maid work and etc. Are most farms owned by small businesses? Because I would assume that isn't the case.

Most local police don't give a shit. They aren't going to go round up people. Too much hassle and they likely went to HS with the farmer

 

[Bitek]

So you are comparing a population of ambitious workers that braved leaving their homes and culture to trek across deadly deserts, risking all they have to for one chance to get to America... in order to clean bathrooms, pick vegetables and dig ditches for poverty wages... In hopes of bettering themselves and the families they left behind.

Versus

A population of natives whose only viable choices for employment are the lowest value jobs for the lowest wages, where literacy isn't even a qualification for competency, as they have developed no other useful skills despite the ample resources and opportunities afforded to them by virtue of their birthplace.

And we are shocked employers prefer to hire over group over the other.

 

[Bitek]

My deal with Mexico is even better than Trump's.

We keep all the hard working, law abiding trabajadores.

We deport all the dropouts and lazy gringos to Mexico. We don't need your wall money. Save it for their food stamps and sacks of beans.

I'll take the guys busting out roofing and landscape jobs with smiles any day over the guys whining about their entitlements not being good enough for the useless little they contribute. Bring all the winners here and we are all better off.

 

[Subyman]

My deal with Mexico is even better than Trump's.

We keep all the hard working, law abiding trabajadores.

We deport all the dropouts and lazy gringos to Mexico. We don't need your wall money. Save it for their food stamps and sacks of beans.

I'll take the guys busting out roofing and landscape jobs with smiles any day over the guys whining about their entitlements not being good enough for the useless little they contribute. Bring all the winners here and we are all better off.

Lol, now that is a plan.

 

[Brian Stirling]

There's already stiff fines, it doesn't work. Jail/prison would work, but will never happen to the almighty job creators.

There are stiff fines on paper, but in practice ... not so much.

When the INS finds a bunch of illegals working at a farm picking fruit or vegetables who gets fined? Is it the large agri-business farmer or the Mexican immigrant that owns the labor company that provided the labor? When that guy is expelled from the country his cousin takes over the business and nothing changes.

And this is just the way business wants it. Slap the wrist of the little guy but leave the big guy alone as he's greased the necessary palms and done the necessary cut-out dance to isolate himself from any legal problems.


Brina

 

[Zaap]

Meh. I think this whole "Big Businesses" hire illegal workers is nothing but a myth.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/21/us/meatpackers-profits-hinge-on-pool-of-immigrant-labor.html

Until 15 or 20 years ago, meatpacking plants in the United States were staffed by highly paid, unionized employees who earned about $18 an hour, adjusted for inflation. Today, the processing and packing plants are largely staffed by low-paid non-union workers from places like Mexico and Guatemala. Many of them start at $6 an hour.

The shift in the economics of the food and agriculture industry has made such jobs unappealing to Americans, but highly enticing to immigrants.

Companies like Tyson, Smithfield Foods and Conagra have profited from paying low wages, pushing production lines faster and hiring workers who are much more willing to endure the hazardous conditions of a meat-processing plant, industry experts say.

Bolded these small Ma-and-Pop outfits, running meat packing operations.

More small Ma and Pop outfits:

http://www.fairus.org/publications/illegal-immigration-and-agribusiness

Since 5.7 percent of U.S. farms account for 75 percent of total farm sales,it is clear that the food supply chain of the country is almost entirely dependent on large-scale agribusinesses. Hence, their economic interests are, to an extent, linked to national interests and cannot be trivialized when considering immigration issues. But is what they are saying true?

Between 1997 and 2007, the agriculture industry enjoyed a nearly 80 percent average annual increase in corporate profits, which is higher than all other major industries surveyed.

Over the same period, the average real wage of a farm worker remained stagnant and was only half that of a non-farm worker of comparable skill level.

Gee, Ma and Pa are doing REALLY, REALLY well racking up 75% of farm sales and enjoying corporate profits higher than all other major industries.

Just small business here folks. Move along. You are NOT being sold a bill of goods along with that supposedly cheap lettuce.

Once again, in every other argument, big business is a major culprit if not THE ONLY culprit, but when it comes to exploiting illegal labor for HUGE profits? No way, get out!

Uhm, I don't know where you get your numbers, but 80% of farm labor is not American labor. 6 out of 10 farm workers are undocumented:

Nearly 80% are foreign born.

http://nfwm.org/education-center/farm-worker-issues/farm-workers-immigration/

You have it backwards.

FWIW, you are a city slicker I live in a rural town where the biggest export is corn and soy. My family leases farm land.

Hmmm... I don't remember quite where I read that stat, but I do remember it was 80%. Also foreign born does not automatically equal illegal.

For example, a Pew Research report:

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2009/04/14/a-portrait-of-unauthorized-immigrants-in-the-united-states/

They have it at 25% illegal workers. Don't you think 80% would raise some serious eyebrows?

Also ag industry isn't just CROP agriculture. Just talking crop agriculture, figures I can find put it at about 53%.

So let's say it HAS gone from 25% of illegal workers to 80% since 2008... is there anyone that thinks that's an argument for the pro-illegal side? We were obviously all starving to death prior to such a massive labor shift, so there clearly can be no other reason for gutting the nation's agriculture industry but pure as the wind driven snow altruism.

And as I pointed out, farming is always singled out, but it's actually not one of the biggest sectors affected:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news.../where-americas-undocumented-immigrants-work/

Yup, all those Ma and Pop transportation/production/installation/construction/repair/service industry outfits.

The percentage working in management and professional jobs increased from 10 to 13 percent over the five-year period.

B-B-But it'll never be MY special snowflake job...!

Good to know that everyone is cool with illegals over-represented by their percentage of the labor force in these rinky-dink Ma and Pop fields, including "professional" and "manufacturing".

 

[Zaap]

When the INS finds a bunch of illegals working at a farm picking fruit or vegetables who gets fined? Is it the large agri-business farmer or the Mexican immigrant that owns the labor company that provided the labor? When that guy is expelled from the country his cousin takes over the business and nothing changes.

While this is true in many cases, who in their right mind would accept letting the large business off the hook if we were talking about something like dumping hazardous chemicals in the local water supply?

"Oh, you can't go after Big Company because they just hire Tony's Dumping Service to do the dumping for them. Nothing anyone can do! Let's all collectively dust our hands and move on."

 

[Brian Stirling]

While this is true in many cases, who in their right mind would accept letting the large business off the hook if we were talking about something like dumping hazardous chemicals in the local water supply?

"Oh, you can't go after Big Company because they just hire Tony's Dumping Service to do the dumping for them. Nothing anyone can do! Let's all collectively dust our hands and move on."

The big agri-businesses have been doing this a very long time and have greased the palms of pols in both parties for a very long time. The elected officials work for them and make sure there subordinates are not overly aggressive in pursing wrong doing on the part of there major contributors. And by not overly aggressive I mean doing nothing at all.

A few years ago an environmental group caught a Texas rancher dumping agricultural waste into a river with a drone. Was the rancher punished for polluting -- why no he wasn't and very soon thereafter the local authorities enacted laws prohibiting people from flying drones near such places.


Brian

 

[1prophet]

Right. I just made up the "Jobs Americans Won't Do (TM)" meme myself, right here, out of whole cloth. Just off the top of my head. No one's ever heard that before.



I'm the one saying let's STOP the plantation owners from getting away with this and enforce our immigration and labor laws.

The whole enterprise is rotten to the core: it exploits the illegal labor. It short-changes the American worker whose jobs are turned into (remember this one I just made up?) JAWD. It turns the poorest communities in the nation into the slave quarters of the wealthy in their gated communities across town who just want an endless supply of cheap landscapers and could care less where those people LIVE, whose neighborhoods they turn into the third world, how many hospitals, schools and social services are overrun in some poor area.

I'm not interested in the false bullshit of 'just give them legal rights' rather- throw the book at the industries that use all this labor, JAIL TERMS for the worst offenders, HEFTY fines, social stigma etc, and dry the whole practice up. People will simply go back where they came from if the jobs are no longer there.

No incentive for more to be here because we've wised the hell up and actually enforce our laws- then our illegal immigration problem isn't as huge. All the pathway to citizenship bullshit is just that- it's by people who want to use the current crop of illegals to become citizens to vote in more open borders bullshit and continue the practice on even larger scales across even more industries.

They also want the reward of "Just sneak in... Just get everything a full citizen does!" used as the nation's driving immigration policy, which is pretty much a recipe for turning the nation into the very third world that will come running here for that. In other words- it's bullshit.

Yaknow, if it wasn't for this ridiculous mentality, Hispanics would vote Republican in overwhelming numbers. You just don't get it.

Cesar Chavez who organized farm labor unions was able to get it, the unions back in the 80's who warned us that the Reagan amnesty had nothing to do with compassionate conservatism but exploitation, union busting and greed were able to get it, it's just that you corporate koolaid drinking pretend liberals who only care about party and votes and not the country don't get it, and you end up being the greatest enablers of the Trumps of the world.

 

[Subyman]

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/21/us/meatpackers-profits-hinge-on-pool-of-immigrant-labor.html



Bolded these small Ma-and-Pop outfits, running meat packing operations.

More small Ma and Pop outfits:

http://www.fairus.org/publications/illegal-immigration-and-agribusiness



Gee, Ma and Pa are doing REALLY, REALLY well racking up 75% of farm sales and enjoying corporate profits higher than all other major industries.

Just small business here folks. Move along. You are NOT being sold a bill of goods along with that supposedly cheap lettuce.

Once again, in every other argument, big business is a major culprit if not THE ONLY culprit, but when it comes to exploiting illegal labor for HUGE profits? No way, get out!





Hmmm... I don't remember quite where I read that stat, but I do remember it was 80%. Also foreign born does not automatically equal illegal.

For example, a Pew Research report:

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2009/04/14/a-portrait-of-unauthorized-immigrants-in-the-united-states/

They have it at 25% illegal workers. Don't you think 80% would raise some serious eyebrows?

Also ag industry isn't just CROP agriculture. Just talking crop agriculture, figures I can find put it at about 53%.

So let's say it HAS gone from 25% of illegal workers to 80% since 2008... is there anyone that thinks that's an argument for the pro-illegal side? We were obviously all starving to death prior to such a massive labor shift, so there clearly can be no other reason for gutting the nation's agriculture industry but pure as the wind driven snow altruism.

And as I pointed out, farming is always singled out, but it's actually not one of the biggest sectors affected:


Yup, all those Ma and Pop transportation/production/installation/construction/repair/service industry outfits.


B-B-But it'll never be MY special snowflake job...!

Good to know that everyone is cool with illegals over-represented by their percentage of the labor force in these rinky-dink Ma and Pop fields, including "professional" and "manufacturing".

I don't believe it has gone from 25% to 80% in only 8 years. I think you probably misheard the number in the past. 80% are foreign born and crossed a border to get here. 60% are undocumented. As you can see, that is a huge number. Why are they so overrepresented in the farm work category? Probably because it is low skill, arduous labor that only an exploitable class would want to do. Americans will do farm labor, but they want to drive the combine not pick 5000lbs of tomatoes a day

That labor force is Too Big to Deport (TM)

 

[chucky2]

snip

That labor force is Too Big to Deport (TM)

(everyone put on the waders, after reading that it's about to get deep in here with pro-"Immigrant" jizz)

 

[KMFJD]

snip

 

[Svnla]

So you are comparing a population of ambitious workers that braved leaving their homes and culture to trek across deadly deserts, risking all they have to for one chance to get to America... in order to clean bathrooms, pick vegetables and dig ditches for poverty wages... In hopes of bettering themselves and the families they left behind.

Versus

A population of natives whose only viable choices for employment are the lowest value jobs for the lowest wages, where literacy isn't even a qualification for competency, as they have developed no other useful skills despite the ample resources and opportunities afforded to them by virtue of their birthplace.

And we are shocked employers prefer to hire over group over the other.

Talk about grossly simplification and looking at things with huge rosy glasses.

You "forgot" to mention these "minor" problems with ILLEGALS:

http://fusion.net/story/205810/10th...t-of-ms-13-gang-violence-in-american-schools/


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-latin-kings-gang-florida-20141128-story.html


http://www.ibtimes.com/gang-violenc...s-crips-bloods-latin-kings-slash-each-2064682


http://www.pewhispanic.org/2011/11/...e-highest-in-new-supplemental-census-measure/


http://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/latino-college-completion-rates-low-despite-enrollment-n80326


And then don't forget about other costs such as benefits/entitlement programs, ESL classes, and so on. But what do I know, I just want immigration law and regulation to enforce EQUALLY to EVERYONE. Not just here and there and amnesties hand out like candies.


As I said before, if ILLEGALS are such HUGE benefits, then why other nations do not jump in and scoop them up? They must be so stupid and do not know any better than you guys pro ILLEGALS, eh?