I'm buying a handgun

[AmigaMan]

Originally posted by: sourceninja

Originally posted by: dmw16
the XD is just a knock off of the Glock. Most of it's added features are marginal at best. I would rather stick with the original rather than a knock off.

Don't select guys based on what someone says is good. Base it on what feels best in your hand.

uhhhh, ok?
<backs slowly out of thread/>

 

[Kelvrick]

Originally posted by: bananapeel42
People are dead wrong if you say a .45 over penetrates. That bullet actually goes slower than the comparable 9mm or .40 cal. If you think "knock down" power is bs ask people from the Armed Forces and they'll tell you otherwise. Sure a .22 cal can kill a man in one shot just like a 9mm if you hit him in the heart or head, but that isn't going to happen 9/10 times or more.

There is a reason police departments all over the country transitioned from 9mm to .40 cal. I own both and 9mm is cheap to shoot regularly, but my .40 is what I'd always go for if I had to defend myself. It's pretty simple, just set both bullets next to each other and you'll see why.

The amount of energy transfer is what really translates into "knock down" power and I know damn well that if I was in that situation I'd want as much as possible.

I have nothing against any of the calibers, but knock down is bullshit. Your armed forces reference is bullshit as well because while our soldiers are trying to wage war, they somehow should be humane about it and are prevented from using any type of expanding projectile.

The police? Well, just because of government decides something doesn't convince me that it is the best option.

Put your 40 next to a 45 then. WHy don't you carry a 45?

http://www.kelvrick.com/rangerchart.jpg

With FMJ's, you're losing ~.1" after expansion. I'd personally have more 9mm with less muzzle flip.

 

[thepd7]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

:roll: So, Dirty Harry, how many times have you actually been in a situation where 10 rounds wasn't enough?

I gave you two. Mall where you might not get within 20 yards of the guy without get shot at with an AK. Tyler courthouse where everyone was outside in an open area and the guy was wearing body armor.

If you are confident enough that you will hit him in the chest, realize he has body armor on, then hit him in the head with 10 rounds then by all means go ahead.

Originally posted by: JDMnAR1

Originally posted by: thepd7
I would never carry a .45. Then again, I live in Texas. Even a compact won't be a very good carry gun here, it's so hot you have short sleeves on half the year. My carry gun is a Ruger LCP because it's so tiny.

.45 can work for carry, but even 10 rounds is low for me. I have plenty good aim but I want at least 15 if I really need to be hitting something/someone.

So wait...you say 10 rounds is insufficient for you, yet your primary carry gun is loaded with 6 rounds only and no spare magazines on your person? I know it has been ages since I took a math class, but last time I broke down and used all my fingers, 10 was more than 6. What good does 32 rounds in your xD do you if you need it NOW? You going to borrow a line from Robin Williams in 'The Survivors' -

Donald: Jaaaack?
Jack: Yeah?
Donald: Time out, OK?
Jack: Time out?
Donald: Time out.
Jack: What do you mean, 'time out?'
Donald: You're not gonna believe this. I was in a hurry when I left the cabin this morning, and, well, silly me, I got the wrong bullets.

And as far as your 9 shots at home scenario - that is a totally different situation than concealed carry. Chances are if an intruder wakes me up in the middle of the night I will reach for both the Colt Government Model in the nightstand AND the 12ga pump under the bed. However, when I am carrying, I am quite content with my Taurus PT145 and 10+1 rounds of .45ACP. It is easily concealed while wearing shorts and a tshirt, so I don't see how that is really a factor. Arkansas weather isn't that much different than Texas.

1- I noted my primary objective for carrying. It's not my only objective. Personal safety is a concern, and when carrying 6 shots is plenty for most scenarios.

The 32 rounds in my xD do me plenty good at night when they are right next to me and in the car where they are as well.

Home - that's great, not everyone has a shotgun (it's on my list for next, right before assault rifle and Kimber .45).

How do you conceal a full size in shorts and a Tshirt? Paddle holster in the back? What size waist are you?

Originally posted by: redgtxdi
Guns don't kill people.........*I* kill people!!


Seriously, I've considered a gun many times before, but I just can't get over the whole "what if" thing.

I have 3 women in the house (wife & 2 small daughters) and losing one of them to any kind of error is not an option. Gun safe, gun box, etc. etc. but if the gun isn't even *IN* the house, then there's no way anybody could get shot with it.

???

(thinking outloud)

On the same token, if it isn't in the house you can't shoot anyone trying to hurt your family with it. I will not debate you that the likelyhood of some derranged person coming in and wanting to murder your family is very low, however it has happened before. A finger safe is pretty darn foolproof.

Originally posted by: kabob983

If something goes bump in the night get a shotgun, forget the pistol...00 buck or birdshot (birdshot typically won't penetrate through walls, good if you have family in other rooms, buckshot will do more damage if close proximity penetration isn't an issue).

And 14 shots in 7 yard isn't terribly realistic. I'd be more impressed with 2-3 shots at 7 yards in 1 second with a high speed draw from a concealed holster...putting 14 in a decent group while slow firing isn't exactly "self defense" shooting...at close quarters a larger caliber bullet is more likely to stop someone in one to two shots than a smaller bullet more reliably. As good as expanding rounds have become, there's no substitute for a bullet that is simply bigger...

As for your "guys with AK's and body armor" scenario, while it's possible it's highly unlikely and you're more likely to do good getting people out of said mall than trying to take on a bunch of heavily armed guys with your pistol.

That said I don't CCW, I work in a government building and other than walking to and from my car I wouldn't be able to carry it. But my most used pistol IS a 17 shot 9mm Glock 17, don't think I'm bashing high capacity wondernines. In most situations though I'd pick a lower capacity .45 over a 9mm though.

I don't slow shoot. That's 2 a second, I get in trouble all the time at the range for it.

Mall scenario I never said "guys" I said "guy". As in 1. There are multiple cases of this happening, 2-3 in the past year. Not all AKs or Body armor or either but it's not a risk I want to take.

This is definitely personal preference and like I said I can understand wanting the stopping power, I just want to KNOW I'm not running out anytime soon.

As an aside, I never said .45 overpenetrates. Just so people don't think I hate the round. As I mentioned, my next 3 guns are 12 gauge pump, assault rifle, .45 Kimber.

 

[Kabob]

Originally posted by: Kelvrick
I have nothing against any of the calibers, but knock down is bullshit. Your armed forces reference is bullshit as well because while our soldiers are trying to wage war, they somehow should be humane about it and are prevented from using any type of expanding projectile.

The police? Well, just because of government decides something doesn't convince me that it is the best option.

Put your 40 next to a 45 then. WHy don't you carry a 45?

http://www.kelvrick.com/rangerchart.jpg

With FMJ's, you're losing ~.1" after expansion. I'd personally have more 9mm with less muzzle flip.

You're making the assumption that a bullet expands "correctly" every time, which is far from true. Expansion is iffy at best. Sure, in ballistics gel it looks amazing but in real application it is far from it.

I notice your chart has nothing that says "human flesh." Check out...I believe it was Chuck Taylor's study on bullet expansion. He looked at hundreds of real world shootings where bullet expansion was supposed to take place an it only happened correctly a few times.

And say what you want but "knock down" is a HUGE issue in the military. That's one of the reasons the .556 has come under so much scrutiny lately because it simply isn't a very big round. It moves at 3200 fps or something ridiculous like that but it has very low energy. They want something bigger that will knock down/incipacitate a bg in as few rounds as possible.

And FMJ's typically don't expand...

 

[sourceninja]

Originally posted by: AmigaMan

Originally posted by: sourceninja

Originally posted by: dmw16
the XD is just a knock off of the Glock. Most of it's added features are marginal at best. I would rather stick with the original rather than a knock off.

Don't select guys based on what someone says is good. Base it on what feels best in your hand.

uhhhh, ok?
<backs slowly out of thread/>

I think that is the funniest typo I've done in a long while. I'm going to leave it and stand by it.

 

[JDMnAR1]

Originally posted by: thepd7
1- I noted my primary objective for carrying. It's not my only objective. Personal safety is a concern, and when carrying 6 shots is plenty for most scenarios.

The 32 rounds in my xD do me plenty good at night when they are right next to me and in the car where they are as well.

Home - that's great, not everyone has a shotgun (it's on my list for next, right before assault rifle and Kimber .45).

How do you conceal a full size in shorts and a Tshirt? Paddle holster in the back? What size waist are you?

Ok - I'll ignore the whole '10 shots isn't enough' comment as I would tend to agree that in a legitimate self defense situation you most likely will not need to reload. In fact, many times I don't carry any extra magazines for my Taurus on my person.

True, not everyone has a shotgun, but I would be willing to bet that for the vast majority of gun owners that a shotun was added to their arsenal before a handgun (except for maybe a .22). I have no statistics to back me up on this, just a gut feeling.

I wouldn't consider a PT145 'full sized', and neither does Taurus.

Caliber: .45 ACP
Capacity: 10+1
Barrel Length: 3.25"
Action: DA/SA
Finish: Blue Steel
Grips: Checkered Polymer
Weight: 22.2 oz
Construction: Polymer/Steel
Frame: Compact
Length: 6.125"
Width: 1.25"
Height: 5.125"

I carry using an iwb holster on my right hip and usually wear a shirt size larger than normal - 38" waist. When I was carrying my 1911 in the warmer months it was with an iwb in the small of my back, which wasn't nearly as comfortable, so more often than not I found myself carrying my Government Model in .380ACP.

 

[thepd7]

Originally posted by: JDMnAR1

Originally posted by: thepd7
1- I noted my primary objective for carrying. It's not my only objective. Personal safety is a concern, and when carrying 6 shots is plenty for most scenarios.

The 32 rounds in my xD do me plenty good at night when they are right next to me and in the car where they are as well.

Home - that's great, not everyone has a shotgun (it's on my list for next, right before assault rifle and Kimber .45).

How do you conceal a full size in shorts and a Tshirt? Paddle holster in the back? What size waist are you?

Ok - I'll ignore the whole '10 shots isn't enough' comment as I would tend to agree that in a legitimate self defense situation you most likely will not need to reload. In fact, many times I don't carry any extra magazines for my Taurus on my person.

True, not everyone has a shotgun, but I would be willing to bet that for the vast majority of gun owners that a shotun was added to their arsenal before a handgun (except for maybe a .22). I have no statistics to back me up on this, just a gut feeling.

I wouldn't consider a PT145 'full sized', and neither does Taurus.

Caliber: .45 ACP
Capacity: 10+1
Barrel Length: 3.25"
Action: DA/SA
Finish: Blue Steel
Grips: Checkered Polymer
Weight: 22.2 oz
Construction: Polymer/Steel
Frame: Compact
Length: 6.125"
Width: 1.25"
Height: 5.125"

I carry using an iwb holster on my right hip and usually wear a shirt size larger than normal - 38" waist. When I was carrying my 1911 in the warmer months it was with an iwb in the small of my back, which wasn't nearly as comfortable, so more often than not I found myself carrying my Government Model in .380ACP.

1st part: I grew up with handguns, I would agree that more grew up on rifles and shotguns than handguns. Either way, for people who want a range/nightstand/car a full size is the way to go.

And sorry, I didn't mean full size persay, it's just that anything seems full size compared to my LCP.

You acknowledge yourself that it's not a small gun (why you carry the .380 in summer), that's more what I was talking about.

No offense but I'm a little slimmer than you (6'1" 185, 34" waist) so I would have to swim in my clothes to conceal that pt145. Like you said, I am sure october-april that would be ok but may-september it wouldn't fly, that's why I went with the LCP. I can carry the LCP in my pocket if I want, it's TINY. Took me about 300 rounds to get decent with it, I am still working on my accuracy.

Seems like we agree for the most part, caliber is eh to me. Personal preference IMO.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Kelvrick

Originally posted by: bananapeel42
People are dead wrong if you say a .45 over penetrates. That bullet actually goes slower than the comparable 9mm or .40 cal. If you think "knock down" power is bs ask people from the Armed Forces and they'll tell you otherwise. Sure a .22 cal can kill a man in one shot just like a 9mm if you hit him in the heart or head, but that isn't going to happen 9/10 times or more.

There is a reason police departments all over the country transitioned from 9mm to .40 cal. I own both and 9mm is cheap to shoot regularly, but my .40 is what I'd always go for if I had to defend myself. It's pretty simple, just set both bullets next to each other and you'll see why.

The amount of energy transfer is what really translates into "knock down" power and I know damn well that if I was in that situation I'd want as much as possible.

I have nothing against any of the calibers, but knock down is bullshit. Your armed forces reference is bullshit as well because while our soldiers are trying to wage war, they somehow should be humane about it and are prevented from using any type of expanding projectile.

The police? Well, just because of government decides something doesn't convince me that it is the best option.

Put your 40 next to a 45 then. WHy don't you carry a 45?

http://www.kelvrick.com/rangerchart.jpg

With FMJ's, you're losing ~.1" after expansion. I'd personally have more 9mm with less muzzle flip.

it's more of a capacity thing usually.

The .357sig is another great one. If you buy a .40 you can sometimes get a barrel kit to use .357sig as well. It's very close to the performance of a .357 magnum round which has more stopping power than 9mm or .45.

The .357sig (usually in the form of a Sig P229) is what the top Federal LEO types carry.

The main reason you don't see a lot of .357sigs out there is the ammo cost is nearly double that of the .40 which is already quite a bit more than a 9mm round.

 

[Kabob]

Originally posted by: alkemyst
it's more of a capacity thing usually.

The .357sig is another great one. If you buy a .40 you can sometimes get a barrel kit to use .357sig as well. It's very close to the performance of a .357 magnum round which has more stopping power than 9mm or .45.

The .357sig (usually in the form of a Sig P229) is what the top Federal LEO types carry.

The main reason you don't see a lot of .357sigs out there is the ammo cost is nearly double that of the .40 which is already quite a bit more than a 9mm round.

Actually, you don't see alot of .357 sig because the recoil is ridiculous. The energy isn't all that much more than a .40, so you're adding alot of muzzle flip/recoil and getting a slightly faster bullet. You get pretty much the exact same effect from a +p or +p+ 9mm round.

It actually hasn't been all that widely adopted by LEO's/military as most people simply don't like it.

 

[alkemyst]

those 9mm rounds are pricey too. AFAIK the secret service, FBI, coast guard and DEA use P229's....these agencies do not have regard for by-stander life at as high a level as the average LEO nor are looked at as 'cheap' to outfit.

Most will classify a 9mm even with a hot round as only OK for self-defense. If you are a smaller dude or not strong then the advantage of using the 9mm over a hotter round would be a lot more.

Plus for those that want variety I don't know of many 9mm if any can take on a different barrel like the .40/.357 can.