I'm out of the loop on the gun control debate.

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corwin

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2006
8,644
9
81
The only way a weapon could be put in schools would be if all teachers and staff had firearm training and it was locked up somewhere
Because it would do so much good to be locked up on the other side of the school instead of carried where it's needed?
The root of the problem has to be addressed more so than the question of shooting people. Teenagers that want to shoot their peers and authority figures feel isolated and angry. If mental health was better treated and made aware of in schools we might not need guns to stop them. This might be bad, but at times I can totally understand where a beaten down, lonely and depressed teen with access to guns might lash out. They are angry, so let's address what they are angry about.
The root of the problem is mental health, but why are you singling out teenagers? Sandy Hook was not a "teenager", had one of those teachers been carrying they would have at least had a chance to stop him as opposed to "luck"...
 

Plugers

Senior member
Mar 22, 2002
547
0
0
I only read half this thread, but will offer my opinion.

I would consider myself a normal gun owner. I only have a pistol in a biometric safe attached to my bed frame.

I would suggest no gun or rifle restrictions, including full autos. And the ability of non violent felons a path to restore their right to self defense.

Face it, there are good people and people who like to use force and power to take what they want, this will never change.

Laws can only be applied to people that break them, that's just how they work.
 

Polarhound

Member
May 5, 2013
31
0
0
Perhaps part of the problem is that people aren't able or willing to admit that despite tens of millions of guns being sold in the past 20 years, gun crime has plummeted?

In a more localized and specific example, in the six year span of 2005-2010 over 30M guns were sold in CA alone, yet the murder rate dropped by 20%. If guns were the cause of crime, wouldn't adding 30M more significantly raised the rate by this logic?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Perhaps part of the problem is that people aren't able or willing to admit that despite tens of millions of guns being sold in the past 20 years, gun crime has plummeted?

In a more localized and specific example, in the six year span of 2005-2010 over 30M guns were sold in CA alone, yet the murder rate dropped by 20%. If guns were the cause of crime, wouldn't adding 30M more significantly raised the rate by this logic?

They're just one factor. It's possible murder could have dropped 30% or 40% without the extra guns - we don't know without looking into all the factors.
 

schneiderguy

Lifer
Jun 26, 2006
10,769
52
91
They're just one factor. It's possible murder could have dropped 30% or 40% without the extra guns - we don't know without looking into all the factors.

Is it possible that murder could have increase by 30 or 40% without the extra guns?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Is it possible that murder could have increase by 30 or 40% without the extra guns?

Absolutely - the only way to answer that is with better understanding the various factors.

Now sometimes correlations get pretty suggestive - if ten states cut guns and murder went down, while ten stated increased guns and murder went up, and the more the cut or increased, the more the rate went down or up, you would start to have some pretty suggestive correlations.

But this sort of situation, looking at a state, isn't like that - it has all kinds of factors.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Detroit, NYC, Washington DC, Compton and Camden say hello?

That's not arguing a point very well.

If you have a point about those places, how about starting with stats for them and other cities - and then some exidence what the important factors are.

Drugs? Gangs? Budget for police? Root causes of racial differences?
 

Polarhound

Member
May 5, 2013
31
0
0
That's not arguing a point very well.

If you have a point about those places, how about starting with stats for them and other cities - and then some exidence what the important factors are.

Drugs? Gangs? Budget for police? Root causes of racial differences?

Sorry, I was assuming someone would gather the bare minimum of subject knowledge by themselves before wading in on a such a complicated topic.. Such as what the worst crime areas that also have the most restrictive gun laws are.

I'll make sure to lower my expectations even further in the future, thanks.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
Sorry, I was assuming someone would gather the bare minimum of subject knowledge by themselves before wading in on a such a complicated topic.. Such as what the worst crime areas that also have the most restrictive gun laws are.

Craig is correct -- saying "Detroit, NYC, Washington DC, Compton and Camden say hello?" is not much of an argument. It's more innuendo than anything else. More explanation and less snark, please.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Sorry, I was assuming someone would gather the bare minimum of subject knowledge by themselves before wading in on a such a complicated topic.. Such as what the worst crime areas that also have the most restrictive gun laws are.

I'll make sure to lower my expectations even further in the future, thanks.

Well, you -completely accidentally - happened to name some of the cities best known for black residents, without any explanation, so it's not unreasonable to question your point.

You say it's only about restrictive gun legislation - but I notice white areas with restrictive gun legislation missing from your list, like Massachussetts.

On the other hand, when you mention, say, Compton - why mention them instead of the rest of Los Angeles county, do they really have that much more gun control?

Given that, a sarcastic reference that somehow it's our fault to raise an eyebrow at your post about 'lowering expectations' seems unjustified.

Just asking you to make a clear argument, and need to ask again.
 

Polarhound

Member
May 5, 2013
31
0
0
You say it's only about restrictive gun legislation - but I notice white areas with restrictive gun legislation missing from your list, like Massachussetts.

Not only do I live in MA, I have a Class A unrestricted LTC in it, one of the hardest to get in this State of Mass Confusion. I listed the others because empirical evidence has long since proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that those areas, despite having the most restrictive gun laws in the country, have by far the worst per-capita murder rates in the country.

As a semi-aside, it should also be noted that there is a correlation beyond any shadow of the doubt that major city gun crime is directly proportional to the control of the city by Leftists. The even sadder fact is that you have Socialists like Bloomberg CELEBRATING the fact that they had 419 murders only because it was less than Detroit.. like that is some kind of accomplishment.

To ignore the fact that there is a longstanding correlation with restrictive gun ownership and murder rates is to say nothing less than, "NYAH NYAH I DON'T CARE BAN ALL THOSE EVIL INANIMATE OBJECTS SO I CAN FEEL BETTER!"

To deny the right of personal protection is nothing less than advocating the right of robbery and murder.
 

Polarhound

Member
May 5, 2013
31
0
0
Craig is correct -- saying "Detroit, NYC, Washington DC, Compton and Camden say hello?" is not much of an argument. It's more innuendo than anything else. More explanation and less snark, please.

Please detail the research you did on crime rates and gun ownership levels in various parts of the country, if any.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
Please detail the research you did on crime rates and gun ownership levels in various parts of the country, if any.

I'm not disputing your claims, nor making any of my own. I am raising a point of order that it's expected around here that people will explain themselves better than just posting one-liners that others may not understand.

Which you have now done, so thank you.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,332
15,128
136
Not only do I live in MA, I have a Class A unrestricted LTC in it, one of the hardest to get in this State of Mass Confusion. I listed the others because empirical evidence has long since proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that those areas, despite having the most restrictive gun laws in the country, have by far the worst per-capita murder rates in the country.

As a semi-aside, it should also be noted that there is a correlation beyond any shadow of the doubt that major city gun crime is directly proportional to the control of the city by Leftists. The even sadder fact is that you have Socialists like Bloomberg CELEBRATING the fact that they had 419 murders only because it was less than Detroit.. like that is some kind of accomplishment.

To ignore the fact that there is a longstanding correlation with restrictive gun ownership and murder rates is to say nothing less than, "NYAH NYAH I DON'T CARE BAN ALL THOSE EVIL INANIMATE OBJECTS SO I CAN FEEL BETTER!"

To deny the right of personal protection is nothing less than advocating the right of robbery and murder.

I'd like some citations for your claims. Your claims of "long standing correlations" warrants looking into.
 
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