I'm very progressive (and pro-teacher), but this pisses me off...

[Zebo]

They need to get rid of these public schools a give vouchers like Europe. Cheaper & better outcomes.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

A high opening demand is a negotiation tactic. They know they won't get a raise that large.

I think there are a number of problems with teachers unions, the most significant of which is their resistance to tying pay to merit. However, I wouldn't read too much into what happens in a negotiation. Wait and see the final deal.

So you are saying this really isn't about the children? The problem with the public sector unions is that they want to have it both ways. They claim they deserve more money because they perform a civil good, then when they are caught being clearly unreasonable they say that they are looking out for their rational self interest like everyone else.

Meanwhile our public sector is horribly broken

 

[piasabird]

Let them strike and fire them all. Just hire Mexicans.

 

[Joepublic2]

30% raise is out of line.

anybody that makes a career out of teaching is in a psychological rut or worthless in the real job market.

Hahaha yeah because the only real human motivation is money, obviously. No way somebody could derive personal satisfaction from being an educator.

 

[Ninjahedge]

There are many problems with the system.

One thing is simply looking at the % increase and not realizing that this is spread out among everyone, in some districts amongst the administration as well (so if your Principal, at 100K, gets a a 10% raise, if averaged with the $1000 raise a starting teacher at $30K got, it kinda skews the numbers).

The second thing is the system of rating. It is VERY political in a school, and a teacher that is not kissing the right butts can easlib be assigned the most unruly and difficult to teach (left back, etc) kids in the school in an effort to discourage them OR to make their record look poor.

In my own school they had some teachers that SUCKED, but were on the Superintendents good side... they got the Honors classes where parents are willing to spend extra $$ for tutors, and Lo and Behold, they end up getting 3 National Merit Scholars.....

Also, benefits? What, because the private sector has us bent over a barrel and has taken away pensions and other benefits, teachers should, at salaries far below market value, do the same? Maybe private workers should be demanding those benefits be brought BACK rather than asking for everyone to have stuff taken from them.

And don't get me started on "hours worked". Elementary school teachers have to keep a class of little ones under control for 7 hours a day, and high school teachers have more papers, exams and lesson plans than what any of us would expect.

If it were so damn easy, why are there shortages of qualified instructors (especially math/science)? Because compared to the stress, lack of respect, and workload, the pay SUCKS. The only thing many teachers stay for is because they love teaching and want to help the kids.

If we start talking about "crushing the unions" and "Eliminating Tenure", maybe we should look at ways of insuring our kids get instructed by people who still want to teach, and, more importantly, who still CAN teach.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Do they ? Our sick/PTO does not "roll over" anymore & I work for a (German) company that is very generous to its employees (compared to competitors in related field)

We get 10 sick/pto days per year with a buyout %50 rate at the end of each FY..

Vacation however rolls over up to - 200 hrs IIRC, then you start taking payouts.. ( or so I hear.. extra vacation has never been a problem for me )

The general idea is to make it so people TAKE those days.

Studies have found that people are more productive, on average, when they have a certain amount of vacation/personal time per year. Allowing carryover or payout made people just stay to earn more, and burn out quicker.

This is just a model, and does not fit perfectly.....

 

[ichy]

They need to get rid of these public schools a give vouchers like Europe. Cheaper & better outcomes.

:facepalm:

 

[Zargon]

I always thought sick days where supposed to be a benefit in which your employer will pay you if you get sick. It benefits the person from not losing pay or having to come into work sick and also the employer by not having the employee spread their sickness to the rest of the workplace.

Getting paid twice for the same day of work because you weren't sick just sounds absurd. Vacation days I can understand but maybe instead of banking them perhaps they can pay you yearly for your unpaid vacation days.

I can get sick day payout, but after 15 years I can get a 10% cut. after 30 years its like 40% its never 100%

heres why I am ok with sicktime rollover. without it, my wife gets 2 weeks sick days/year, so if has a baby and takes 6 weeks off, thats a month w/o pay if it doesnt perfectly match up to summer break

Do they ? Our sick/PTO does not "roll over" anymore & I work for a (German) company that is very generous to its employees (compared to competitors in related field)

We get 10 sick/pto days per year with a buyout %50 rate at the end of each FY..

Vacation however rolls over up to - 200 hrs IIRC, then you start taking payouts.. ( or so I hear.. extra vacation has never been a problem for me )

I have never worked anywhere that didnt let me roll over SOME of my PTO. and they all rolled over sick leave. I can bank half my vacation alotment per year at my current job. I only used like 3 vacation days all last year when I could keep them all due to being a new employee





its certainly unfair to ask them to work 15% more contract hours per year, which will generate even more non contract hour workload, and offer a 2% payraise

though also for the record as a whole CPS pays surprisingly well already

 

[DrPizza]

Re: not rolling over sick time at some companies. I'd bet that that the majority of workers at such companies use significantly more sick time than at companies where sick time is rolled over & can be used toward retirement or something. At every "use it or lose it" company I'm familiar with, the majority of workers use the majority of their sick time.

In the case of teachers, and many other occupations (e.g., nursing), paying TWICE *is* budgeted in. Why? At many jobs, when you're out sick, you're out sick. In some occupations, when you're out sick, someone is filling in for you, working overtime at time and a half - or someone is called in from the outside to fill in for you.
So, why do you think it's wrong for a company or organization to say, "here's an allotment of sick time. To encourage you to use it only when you're actually sick, we'll pay you back for 60% of your unused sick time." That arrangement is win-win for the organization and for the employee.

 

[woolfe9999]

So you are saying this really isn't about the children? The problem with the public sector unions is that they want to have it both ways. They claim they deserve more money because they perform a civil good, then when they are caught being clearly unreasonable they say that they are looking out for their rational self interest like everyone else.

Meanwhile our public sector is horribly broken

No, from the public's perspective, it's definitely about the children. Teachers can contribute to the discussion over education and their input is highly valuable, but do not expect objectivity when it comes to their own salaries. It's like asking doctors how to contain healthcare costs - their salaries are definitely going to be off the table. It's almost axiomatic that in every profession, everyone is going for maximum compensation, all the time.

All that said, I don't think teachers are overpaid in this country, in general (they may be a little overpaid in some places, a little underpaid in others.) I think bad teachers have too much job security, but that is another issue.

 

[Zebo]

:facepalm:

Better check your facts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_voucher#Europe

 

[Jadow]

heh this wouldn't be an issue in WI.

Thank You Governor Walker.

 

[zsdersw]

heh this wouldn't be an issue in WI.

Thank You Governor Walker.

... unless you're a policeman/firefighter/state trooper. Those unions can still collectively bargain over wages/compensation.

 

[Ausm]

heh this wouldn't be an issue in WI.

Thank You Governor Walker.

Don't worry, we are going to send the ALEC/Koch bros/GOP poster child packing June 5th no matter how much dirty money comes in to save his pathetic ass.

 

[FerrelGeek]

As much as the union being unreasonable, how come no one cry foul when the mayor JUST decide longer school day is necessary without any discussion? The teacher were demanded to teach additional 10-15% more time then before, thus they demand 10-15% raise. Unreasonable maybe but it go both way. How would you felt if you boss ask you to do 15% more work than before with same pay or they will fire you?

This happens all the time for salaried employees. 'We just committed to having product x ready for BFO customer by date y. Looks like you'll be working 60 hour weeks for the next n months without OT pay. Thank you for your service.' Not saying it's right, but this happens all the time. Some employers do compensate for this in some way: bonuses, time off when the work is done, company stock, etc.

One of my gripes against teachers these days is that they want to be treated like professionals but get paid like hourly workers.

 

[Zargon]

Re: not rolling over sick time at some companies. I'd bet that that the majority of workers at such companies use significantly more sick time than at companies where sick time is rolled over & can be used toward retirement or something. At every "use it or lose it" company I'm familiar with, the majority of workers use the majority of their sick time.

In the case of teachers, and many other occupations (e.g., nursing), paying TWICE *is* budgeted in. Why? At many jobs, when you're out sick, you're out sick. In some occupations, when you're out sick, someone is filling in for you, working overtime at time and a half - or someone is called in from the outside to fill in for you.
So, why do you think it's wrong for a company or organization to say, "here's an allotment of sick time. To encourage you to use it only when you're actually sick, we'll pay you back for 60% of your unused sick time." That arrangement is win-win for the organization and for the employee.

agree 100%

I actually worked a place that wanted a Dr note for back to back sick days. it was pretty silly. If I have a fever and am puking for 2 days I do not want to pay a 25 buck copay to be told to get some rest and drink fluids.

my current job I just have to text my boss that I am sick. I still dont use more sick time. they have the same nonexistant payback of like 10% after 10 years of service. but they also let me use sick time to take my dog to the vet same with kids appts when if I have any

No, from the public's perspective, it's definitely about the children. Teachers can contribute to the discussion over education and their input is highly valuable, but do not expect objectivity when it comes to their own salaries. It's like asking doctors how to contain healthcare costs - their salaries are definitely going to be off the table. It's almost axiomatic that in every profession, everyone is going for maximum compensation, all the time.

All that said, I don't think teachers are overpaid in this country, in general (they may be a little overpaid in some places, a little underpaid in others.) I think bad teachers have too much job security, but that is another issue.

also agree. even good teachers waiver when talking about no tenure because well, its still less security even for them and when you have been coddled you start to worry. plus there are always the favoritism arguments and bad administrators ETC ETC

they will just have to live with it

 

[Ninjahedge]

Zargon, they will have to live with nothing.

WE will have to live with a profession that will either have to PAY MORE for the time/expertise offered OR just end up with lousy teachers for our kids.

If teaching was SO GREAT, why do so few people do it? (And no, I am not talking about the 2nd grade here...)

 

[Xellos2099]

This happens all the time for salaried employees. 'We just committed to having product x ready for BFO customer by date y. Looks like you'll be working 60 hour weeks for the next n months without OT pay. Thank you for your service.' Not saying it's right, but this happens all the time. Some employers do compensate for this in some way: bonuses, time off when the work is done, company stock, etc.

One of my gripes against teachers these days is that they want to be treated like professionals but get paid like hourly workers.

It is not next week or month.... probably forever or unless the mayor reject the plan. For example, if your employer sudden tell you that you will need to work extra a hour and a half for the rest of your life.... do you like it? I don't think teacher get any kind of stock, or any kind of stock for working in the public system.

 

[Zargon]

Zargon, they will have to live with nothing.

WE will have to live with a profession that will either have to PAY MORE for the time/expertise offered OR just end up with lousy teachers for our kids.

If teaching was SO GREAT, why do so few people do it? (And no, I am not talking about the 2nd grade here...)

there are plenty of teachers. lots are having problems finding jobs in chicago

I dont quite understand the italics

 

[Ninjahedge]

there are plenty of teachers. lots are having problems finding jobs in chicago

I dont quite understand the italics

That would be because there are no italics.

Having teachers available in one area does not express the lack of qualified individuals in many other areas. Math and science being the biggest.

Physics?
Biology?
Calculus?

Hell, even AP History/Brit Lit is hard to fill with a good teacher.

The main reasons being, there is little RESPECT given to the profession, so many professionals do not want those jobs. the second comes with people that can put up with crappy blame oriented parents, the lack of any kind of authoritarian power, and the unseen work that needs to be done.

A GOOD teacher is very hard to find. A crappy one is as easy as finding shit in a trailer park.

 

[Jadow]

Don't worry, we are going to send the ALEC/Koch bros/GOP poster child packing June 5th no matter how much dirty money comes in to save his pathetic ass.

Saved for when Walker wins

 

[FerrelGeek]

It is not next week or month.... probably forever or unless the mayor reject the plan. For example, if your employer sudden tell you that you will need to work extra a hour and a half for the rest of your life.... do you like it? I don't think teacher get any kind of stock, or any kind of stock for working in the public system.

The stock, bonus, etc. is not guaranteed. There are companies that demand the work and give you noting extra for it. Don't like it? Good luck finding another job. And we don't get anywhere near the vacation time that people in Europe get.

Teachers in the US get 2 - 2-1/2 months off in the summer and another 3 - 4 weeks off during the school year, depending on where you live. They get early dismissal days at least once a quarter as well as time off to compensate for student conferences. They get 'teacher education days' - oh yeah, they just 'happen' to fall on election days. They can accumulate sick / vacation time and cash in that time when they retire to boost their pensions. They can retire after 30 years and collect full pension, which means that many can retire in their mid 50s. So sorry, I'm not overly sympathetic with asking teachers to work a few more hours a week.

I'm not saying that the life of a teacher is perfect or always easy; my dad's experience certainly taught me that. I have 4 kids, the youngest in 8th grade, so I think that qualifies me to say I'm pretty experienced with the public school system. My wife and I have both done voluteer work in the schools over the years as well, so I can rightfully claim that we were involved parents. My kids have been blessed to have some amazing teachers. They've also had some that are perfect examples of why tenure is not a good idea. What I've seen over the progression of time that my kids have been in school is the increasing sense of 'entitlement' that teachers show and an increasing sense of being in it for themselves and not for the love of teaching. I see an increasing sense that an increasing number of teachers care more for the union than for the kids. As I said earlier, I see more teachers acting like they're punching a timeclock - acting like your average hourly worker, not acting like what has traditionally been seen as salaried (professional) behavior.

 

[Ninjahedge]

The stock, bonus, etc. is not guaranteed. There are companies that demand the work and give you noting extra for it. Don't like it? Good luck finding another job. And we don't get anywhere near the vacation time that people in Europe get.

We USED to get a standard number of sdays off, and a pension.

So... what happened? "Free Market"?

Teachers in the US get 2 - 2-1/2 months off in the summer and another 3 - 4 weeks off during the school year, depending on where you live. They get early dismissal days at least once a quarter as well as time off to compensate for student conferences. They get 'teacher education days' - oh yeah, they just 'happen' to fall on election days. They can accumulate sick / vacation time and cash in that time when they retire to boost their pensions. They can retire after 30 years and collect full pension, which means that many can retire in their mid 50s. So sorry, I'm not overly sympathetic with asking teachers to work a few more hours a week.

You really need to do your research:

1. Most teachers are required to go BACK TO SCHOOL and take classes, every summer, for their entire career.

2. The "time off" has gotten smaller. Down to ~2mo in summer. All other days off are scheduled ahead of time. You can't just "take off" a friday unless you really ARE sick (some requiring doctors notes).

3. The end of the school day does not mean the end of work. Some classes are given "prep periods", but they are rarely enough to get the work done, or the labs set up or cleaned up. Imagine having 6 separate classes, each with tests and homework. If you are a teacher that cares, you make a new test for each one each time. Even cut-and-paste tests take about 30min to 1hr to make. So that is an additional 3-6 hours a week.

Homework? Try 15 minutes per student per assignment per class (20-30 kids): 15 x 30 x 2 x 6 = 90 HOURS of grading. Hell, even one small assignment can take 5 minutes, which done only once a week for every class is still 15 hours a week!

4. Class times are getting longer. Many schools are starting at 7:30 and going until 3. that is 7.5 hrs a day.

5. PTC's and helping students with questions after class... more time. You REALLY need to look into what you are saying. If teaching was so easy, why do so few people go for it?

Because it is NOT THAT EASY.

I'm not saying that the life of a teacher is perfect or always easy; my dad's experience certainly taught me that. I have 4 kids, the youngest in 8th grade, so I think that qualifies me to say I'm pretty experienced with the public school system.

My mother taught (so far) for about 35 years. I used to wait in her back room for her after school when she was setting up for anatomy in the other room, leaving school at 6-7 at night. Having kids does not tell you how hard it is to be a teacher.

My wife and I have both done voluteer work in the schools over the years as well, so I can rightfully claim that we were involved parents. My kids have been blessed to have some amazing teachers.

Volunteer work helps you appreciate it, but still.....

They've also had some that are perfect examples of why tenure is not a good idea. What I've seen over the progression of time that my kids have been in school is the increasing sense of 'entitlement' that teachers show and an increasing sense of being in it for themselves and not for the love of teaching.

MANY teachers are not like that. Some get that way from being beaten by administrators and parents that seem to think they run everything. They lose their love of teaching and become workers waiting for retirement.

The entire chemistry department in my school became like that after administrative BS and lack of respect left one good man frustrated and two other men just biding time until they could not remember which way to turn the key in the door.

I see an increasing sense that an increasing number of teachers care more for the union than for the kids. As I said earlier, I see more teachers acting like they're punching a timeclock - acting like your average hourly worker, not acting like what has traditionally been seen as salaried (professional) behavior.

That is not a realistic portrayal. Things have ALWAYS been getting worse as people feel they like to see it. There is no great increase in the number of teachers just in it for the pension. AAMOF, just the opposite. There are just more people that think they see it.