Discussion Impeachment

[Jhhnn]

Jhhnn, as long as we live in a society that uses money in exchange for only certain forms of social service, every person will be required to have some form of income in order to pursue life liberty and happiness. We are social animals that lived in tribes for millions of years and we didn't let just those who hunted for meat survive. Every person served a purpose and a function and were cared for. Only progressive socialists, will provide that. Capitalism breeds insecurity, competition and hate. Those who thrive in that diseased state love the disease, the feeling they are superior to others. Take that success away and it all falls apart. The winners always wind up being those willing to take from others. The 1% love it.

I'm not arguing at all. If we want more from the sacred Job Creators we'll have to take it as taxes & redistribute it as public goods, things that benefit us all. Health care. Education. Housing. Public works. We just have to figure out how to sell it to people who got suckered into the whole smaller gubmint Libertopian headset.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Here is your problem right here:

Spoiler: In case you don't already know

There is no amount of evidence that cannot be ignored.

I think there are two ways that Dems might win on impeachment. One is convincing Republicans to support the removal of Trump. Not a few, but a lot, but as you say there's not much that would possibly move them and certainly not with what we have at this time. There are other investigations ongoing though in the House and possibly the SDNY and they matter especially in what the other version of winning looks like. In the second case, impeachment happens but all the information that can be gathered through ongoing processes is added to the mix, especially any bona fide criminal doings like bank fraud, embezzlement, etc- the things that sunk Enron for instance. Trump may well survive that too but when 2020 comes around the Dems can go on an intensive campaign exposing Trump and Republican corruption while delivering whatever positive message they have at that time. Naturally, any abhorrent behavior by Reps during impeachment would be highlighted.

Remember that you and I are not going to change our votes to support Trump and perhaps 90% of Republicans would have him back, maybe more.

So as with midterm,s act to stir up those who might sit out an election and those who are on the fence. Those last may not be many but by using the tools we have in the right way at the right time it is possible that Reps could win the battle of impeachment and lose the war at the ballot box.

 

[Jhhnn]

It's amazing to me that anybody is willing to tolerate a President who actively attempted to obstruct a DoJ investigation. Despite all the raving about it being a witch hunt that inquiry has been legitimate all along. The simple fact that it has yielded multiple felony convictions & indictments tells us that.

Obstruction of justice is a crime regardless of the motivations for doing so. It also doesn't matter if the attempts were mostly unsuccessful, either. The attempt alone is utterly damning.

 

[Sunburn74]

It's amazing to me that anybody is willing to tolerate a President who actively attempted to obstruct a DoJ investigation. Despite all the raving about it being a witch hunt that inquiry has been legitimate all along. The simple fact that it has yielded multiple felony convictions & indictments tells us that.

Obstruction of justice is a crime regardless of the motivations for doing so. It also doesn't matter if the attempts were mostly unsuccessful, either. The attempt alone is utterly damning.

This would be the conclusion of reasonable people. Mueller's conclusion was the equivalent of getting away with murder because the guy you were shooting in the head when seemingly sleeping actually had a heart attack just 2 seconds before. It is in no way an exoneration of criminal intent.

 

[fskimospy]

This would be the conclusion of reasonable people. Mueller's conclusion was the equivalent of getting away with murder because the guy you were shooting in the head when seemingly sleeping actually had a heart attack just 2 seconds before. It is in no way an exoneration of criminal intent.

This is not accurate. Mueller's conclusion was this: 'because I cannot indict Trump I refuse to make a judgment either way and will leave that to Congress'.

Muller's conclusion is basically if you saw someone shoot a guy in the head while he was sleeping you would report that information to the police/DA and leave it up to them whether to arrest/indict the person.

 

[Jhhnn]

This would be the conclusion of reasonable people. Mueller's conclusion was the equivalent of getting away with murder because the guy you were shooting in the head when seemingly sleeping actually had a heart attack just 2 seconds before. It is in no way an exoneration of criminal intent.

Mueller deliberately avoided coming to conclusions about obstruction simply because DoJ policy dictates that a sitting President can't be indicted. If our current AG weren't a total Trump toady he would have simply passed the report on to Congress w/o trying to spin it into something it's not.

 

[blankslate]

To be fair he's also Saudi Arabia's bitch as he has ordered the U.S. Air Force to assist Saudi Arabia in committing war crimes in Yemen by refueling Saudi Arabia's planes in the air.
but hey since everyone would rather focus on collusion.... /shrug



________________

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

This is not accurate. Mueller's conclusion was this: 'because I cannot indict Trump I refuse to make a judgment either way and will leave that to Congress'.

Muller's conclusion is basically if you saw someone shoot a guy in the head while he was sleeping you would report that information to the police/DA and leave it up to them whether to arrest/indict the person.

We concluded that Trump could and should be indicted and prosecuted some time ago and I've read reports that Schiff has not given up on that. The SDNY could very well see fit to indict Trump and Barr scream bloody murder however that raises the oversight function of the House to a new and higher level and that includes DOJ policies.

In the meantime, I hope the "charge in and consequences be damned" people are restrained until we are in a maximally advantageous position to impeach so that win or lose the Senate trial we're in a superior position come 2020. There is a matter of morality to be sure but is that satisfied by shouting and running around like townies with torches in an old horror flick or being decisive and effective even it that takes some time? I'm on the side of the latter approach because from a rational and moral perspective the greatest good comes from getting Trump out of office by any legal and maximally effective means.

 

[jackstar7]

Also, today is Trump's Taxes Day Part 2.

Let's see how that gets obstructed!

 

[VRAMdemon]

The Democratic leadership's message should be something like this:

"Although Trump is clearly unfit for office and should be removed, we're not going to waste the people's time by going through the motions of an impeachment process which is doomed to fail because the GOP leadership will always put party over country. Once a few Republican Senators indicate that they are open to impeachment, we'll put that on the fast track. In the meantime, we will spend our time and energy putting forth serious policy proposals. And investigating the fuck out of Trump, following up on every loose end in the Mueller report with public hearings, and passing motions of censure which Republicans will have to cast votes on. By seriously pursuing impeachment, it almost guarantee that the 2020 election will be nothing other than a referendum on said impeachment. The polls right now are telling us very clearly that we have better issues to fight that election on. Of course that might change, and we should do everything in our power to expose all of Trump's dirty laundry. But there's no reason to start actually voting on it unless and until there's some hope of winning."

 

[jackstar7]

We don't even know the full extent of his criminality. Why would we not investigate fully using the Constitutional framework?

Political cowardice?


A portion of the public definitely wants action. And another large portion will respond to it with support.

And then there's the cult that will either implode or explode... who knows.

 

[zinfamous]

It's amazing to me that anybody is willing to tolerate a President who actively attempted to obstruct a DoJ investigation. Despite all the raving about it being a witch hunt that inquiry has been legitimate all along. The simple fact that it has yielded multiple felony convictions & indictments tells us that.

Obstruction of justice is a crime regardless of the motivations for doing so. It also doesn't matter if the attempts were mostly unsuccessful, either. The attempt alone is utterly damning.

I like how the illiterate predictably disagree with observable truths. (responding to your "likes")

 

[woolfe9998]

It's amazing to me that anybody is willing to tolerate a President who actively attempted to obstruct a DoJ investigation. Despite all the raving about it being a witch hunt that inquiry has been legitimate all along. The simple fact that it has yielded multiple felony convictions & indictments tells us that.

Obstruction of justice is a crime regardless of the motivations for doing so. It also doesn't matter if the attempts were mostly unsuccessful, either. The attempt alone is utterly damning.

More to the point, the "attempt alone" is a felony under federal law.

https://www.justice.gov/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1736-inchoate-obstruction-justice-offenses

 

[Moonbeam]

We concluded that Trump could and should be indicted and prosecuted some time ago and I've read reports that Schiff has not given up on that. The SDNY could very well see fit to indict Trump and Barr scream bloody murder however that raises the oversight function of the House to a new and higher level and that includes DOJ policies.

In the meantime, I hope the "charge in and consequences be damned" people are restrained until we are in a maximally advantageous position to impeach so that win or lose the Senate trial we're in a superior position come 2020. There is a matter of morality to be sure but is that satisfied by shouting and running around like townies with torches in an old horror flick or being decisive and effective even it that takes some time? I'm on the side of the latter approach because from a rational and moral perspective the greatest good comes from getting Trump out of office by any legal and maximally effective means.

This is a utilitarian view of the situation that takes a short term perspective. It relies on the fact that the future will be better if Trump is not rushed into impeachment because the Senate will not convict. But there is an alternative future I see, one in which the moral failure of Democrats not to impeach Trump redounds as a profound moral failure with even worse consequences. There is this small matter of constitutional duty. Trump was impeachable the day he took office. Trump is unfit to be President of the United States and the people of tomorrow will all know it. And if Democrats don't act to try to remove him, they will know that as a moral failure too. There really is no choice but I have faith that what will actually be done will turn out to be wrong and the cost will ultimately be paid by justification of the both sides argument. A politician will only impeach when it is convenient to winning. Republicans, you may have noticed, aren't like that. When it comes to seeing the other side, they have 20 20 moral clarity.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

This is a utilitarian view of the situation that takes a short term perspective. It relies on the fact that the future will be better if Trump is not rushed into impeachment because the Senate will not convict. But there is an alternative future I see, one in which the moral failure of Democrats not to impeach Trump redounds as a profound moral failure with even worse consequences. There is this small matter of constitutional duty. Trump was impeachable the day he took office. Trump is unfit to be President of the United States and the people of tomorrow will all know it. And if Democrats don't act to try to remove him, they will know that as a moral failure too. There really is no choice but I have faith that what will actually be done will turn out to be wrong and the cost will ultimately be paid by justification of the both sides argument. A politician will only impeach when it is convenient to winning. Republicans, you may have noticed, aren't like that. When it comes to seeing the other side, they have 20 20 moral clarity.

Understand I'm not saying to not impeach. What I do believe is that from a moral perspective we need to act thoughtfully.

If a loved one was being held hostage I would feel that to act is a mandate however if I charge and the one I seek to rescue is killed by reckless action do I not bear responsibility?. "Well I tried and therefore I'm vindicated" isn't something I'd ever accept because of the way I acted. How righteous would I be, what good was done moral or otherwise, that I can console myself with as I hold the corpse of my son?

In my view, morality requires responsible action. If there was no hope, no chance that anything I could do? Then I would die if that is what it took for him to have a chance and if we both suffer death, then I did act. But to risk his life without reasoning what gives him the best chance? I consider that to be good and foolish intentions which aren't to my way of thinking the best moral approach.

Again I am not saying to not act nor impeach but moral acts are best founded on an approach of emotion, a strong sense of doing right which is informed by rational thought as to how to best defeat that which outrages us.

Our loved way of life has a knife being held to its throat and that requires saving and that sometimes that results in things we'd rather avoid, like having a plan of action and execution and IMO we need that more than a satisfaction of a heroic loss.

 

[Jhhnn]

Like Moonbeam I believe that Dems have a moral & Constitutional responsibility to impeach Trump. I also believe that Congressional testimony will illustrate that in ways that Mueller's report doesn't. Barr & Trump got out front in the war of words but they will lose control of the narrative over the next several months. If McConnell & the GOP won't remove Trump from office we'll turn him into an albatross around their necks.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Like Moonbeam I believe that Dems have a moral & Constitutional responsibility to impeach Trump. I also believe that Congressional testimony will illustrate that in ways that Mueller's report doesn't. Barr & Trump got out front in the war of words but they will lose control of the narrative over the next several months. If McConnell & the GOP won't remove Trump from office we'll turn him into an albatross around their necks.

Then charge.

 

[Moonbeam]

Like Moonbeam I believe that Dems have a moral & Constitutional responsibility to impeach Trump. I also believe that Congressional testimony will illustrate that in ways that Mueller's report doesn't. Barr & Trump got out front in the war of words but they will lose control of the narrative over the next several months. If McConnell & the GOP won't remove Trump from office we'll turn him into an albatross around their necks.

I think the way to resolve Hayabusa Jhhnn difference is to announce the intention to impeach but first we will build our case as to why, so that all Americans can be brought up to speed and fully understand why. We intend to make clear to the public those Republicans who will put partisan tribalism over duty to country so that in the 2020 election the American people can remove not just Trump but them. We will provide the evidence of how far they will go to protect a President who is a criminal so long as he is Republican. We will demonstrate that the Republican Party is a criminal enterprise supported by our greatest foreign enemy and how they have conspired together to turn you against your own fellow countrymen just so they can serve the Russia oligarchy and our own corresponding 1%. We will show you that Trump and Putin do the same things to win, how they both lie about whose interest they really serve. We will impeach, but not before we make clear that it is the Republican Senate we are also putting on trial with him so that when they vote not to impeach you will know to convict then come election time. It isn’t just Trump that is guilty, it’s the Republican Party.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I would be fine with a clear explanation of our intent to impeach.

 

[jackstar7]

Not unhelpful.

 

[Bird222]

Mueller deliberately avoided coming to conclusions about obstruction simply because DoJ policy dictates that a sitting President can't be indicted. If our current AG weren't a total Trump toady he would have simply passed the report on to Congress w/o trying to spin it into something it's not.

In my opinion, he didn't have to. He could have clearly stated that he would have indicted him but he can't because of DoJ policy but for some reason he chose not to.

 

[woolfe9998]

Not much of a Bernie supporter, but I tend to agree with his answer at the town hall on impeachment:

But if -- and this is an if -- if for the next year, year-and-a-half, going right into the heart of the election, all that the Congress is talking about is impeaching Trump and Trump, Trump, Trump, and Mueller, Mueller, Mueller, and we're not talking about health care, we're not talking about raising the minimum wage to a living wage, we're not talking about combating climate change, we're not talking about sexism and racism and homophobia, and all of the issues that concern ordinary Americans, what I worry about is that works to Trump's advantage.

 

[jackstar7]

Since Mitch is going to be stopping anything of substance, why shouldn't Dems focus all their energy on dismantling the GOP crime web running throughout multiple branches of government.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Since Mitch is going to be stopping anything of substance, why shouldn't Dems focus all their energy on dismantling the GOP crime web running throughout multiple branches of government.

Dems cannot afford to focus all their attention on Trump to the exclusion of all else. Why? Because when elections come around then people can say that the Dems are entirely about getting Trump and screw everything else. The Dems then have no good reply that would inspire people to support them except for "WE'RE NOT TRUMP".

I'm hoping the Dems can walk and chew gum at the same time because they need to and I see no reason why they can't.

 

[jackstar7]

Dems cannot afford to focus all their attention on Trump to the exclusion of all else. Why? Because when elections come around then people can say that the Dems are entirely about getting Trump and screw everything else. The Dems then have no good reply that would inspire people to support them except for "WE'RE NOT TRUMP".

I'm hoping the Dems can walk and chew gum at the same time because they need to and I see no reason why they can't.

I can come up with narratives that I think would play.

I think they can do two things at once, too, but even if they didn't when you have termites, you can't simultaneously work on the plumbing. You gotta fumigate and close it all up until things are cleaned and ready to be repaired.

Yeah, they can be painted as anti-Trump, but when they fullness of his corruption is revealed, I think that would be welcomed by most Americans. Justice is an ideal that a lot of people like to see, especially when it is someone powerful facing ramifications for their immoral and traitorous choices.