The big Democrat turnout in the midterms was bound to happen. It isn't nearly as special as some make it out to be. The party that gets the presidency generally sees a big backlash in the first two years. Remember the Republicans crushing Obama in 2010?
He was impeachable on day 1 with the ridiculous conflicts of interests. He's been flagrantly abusing the Constitution ever since. If Pelosi doesn't push for impeachment at any point, she's just falling into the Republican talking points in that he hasn't done enough to warrant impeachment. It doesn't help either that Mueller basically gave a green light to anyone that wants aid from a country that would like to knock the US down a few pegs. We need to initiate impeachment proceedings, so we can have hearings to lay out the evidence and proof without the horse race bullshit and "neutral" commentary the media pulls.
Explain the argument against, please.
Do you seriously think Pelosi is stupid enough to fall fall for republican talking points? I am not a particular fan of hers, and think we need a younger person in her position, but she certainly is not stupid, and is politically astute. If she thought initiating impeachment proceedings was the guaranteed way to get rid of trump or sway the undecided voters like a lot of people in these forums seem to think, I am sure she would not hesitate to do so.
Bottom line is whether more political capital will be gained by continuing to highlight Trumps moral bankruptcy by holding impeachment hearings, or whether more will be lost by the inevitable backlash when the initiative fails (which it most certainly will because of the republican senate). Obviously I am in the minority in this forum, but I think the later is the case.
I'm not sure we can bet on that. Republicans vote based on how afraid they are, but Dems need to be excited by someone. Unless the Dems find someone who can please both the centrist and the progressive wing, turnout might be an issue.The counter to that would be that it would energize the dem base for higher turnout, but I think we're at a diminishing return on that. Our base hates Trump so much already that we're going to get high turnout whether we impeach or not.
No, it sends the message that sufficient evidence has not been found --- after a nearly 2 year long investigation.Refusal to impeach sends the message that the situation cannot possibly be that bad. That too is essentially what Pelosi said just to get a trivial stab at Trump.
No, it sends the message that sufficient evidence has not been found --- after a nearly 2 year long investigation.
No, it sends the message that sufficient evidence has not been found --- after a nearly 2 year long investigation.
The American people need to be brought along. Republicans didn't start giving a shit about Watergate until the televised hearings which brought us John Dean and the tapes.
We need hearings to bring out Mueller, Don McGahn, Cory Lewindowski, Mike Flynn, Reince Prebius, John Kelly and every person part of the Mueller report who is a witness as to Trump's illegal acts and obstruction. Nothing hits home like Trump's own people telling their own stories on live TV.
Remember these are not disgruntled Democrats of Deep State people, they are Trump's hires.
Until this happens we will not see impeachment hearings.
Trump supporters are too stubborn to tuen on him even if he kills someone on the streets of NYC. However if you can peel off 5-10 pts of his 40% hard core supporters that would be enough.
As usual, so many Democrats don't seem to be able to find their moral asses with both hands tied behind their backs. Personally, it seems to me that Elizabeth Warren is the only candidate so far that has real moral clarity. To impeach Trump or not to impeach him isn't really a question, it's simply a matter of honoring one's constitutional fidelity and the oath officer holders took when elected to Congress. Trump is morally unfit to be President, cares about himself above Country, and can only be removed by being impeached. The obviousness of this should be morally crystal clear. It should never be a question of what impeachment might cost you or if it could backfire in your face. It's a matter of sworn duty and those who will not impeach should resign. I wrote my three congress people long ago that if they didn't impeach they would not get my vote again.
There isn't a Republican of the planet who wouldn't vote to impeach Trump if he were a Democrat and that's why people vote for them. People prefer moral swine over moral wimps, people so intellectually hampered in their reactions worrying about what if. Who gives a fuck what if. Do what is right, God Damn it.
"Oh no, I can't do anything irrational, it would make me just like them. It might make me look stupid and that's worse than death." Fucking losers, just like Trump says.
Dems don't need to win anybody over. They just need to motivate decent Americans to get off their asses & vote. Failure to impeach Trump would lead to a great deal of disenchantment in Dem voters, precisely the reason we lost in 2016.
I wouldn't have to if the concerns they troll weren't real weaknesses. There are just so many angles one can drill down on not to impeach. But none of that will affect anybody who is morally clear and not internally bent like a pretzel.Don't mistake concern trolling for Democratic sentiment or intentions.
I don’t really feel that sentiment myself, I think most dems want him impeached and know he is guilty. But they know the GOP senate will protect their criminal. I think dems will be motivated to remove the orange turd by voting come election time. I say impeach as it’s the moral/ethical/legal thing to do, even knowing the senate won’t follow through. Use that as fuel.
Believe me, I wish it had, but I am pretty sure the report does not state that directly. If it does, please quote. Otherwise, it certainly cites a lot of misdeeds, but whether those are grounds for impeachment or directly related to trump seems open to interpretation.Well Mueller’s report says pretty strongly that sufficient evidence has been found.
Believe me, I wish it had, but I am pretty sure the report does not state that directly. If it does, please quote. Otherwise, it certainly cites a lot of misdeeds, but whether those are grounds for impeachment or directly related to trump seems open to interpretation.
I think they, and even more so, the undecided/independents would be more motivated by a united party that presents an intelligent reasonably moderate candidate that addresses climate change (in a non-hysterical manner), jobs, infrastructure, affordable college and health care.You think more or less Democrats will be motivated if the current crop of elected Democrats don't bother to impeach or they will be more or less motivated if the current crop of Democrats opt to impeach but are unsuccessful due to Republicans in the senate?
I think they, and even more so, the undecided/independents would be more motivated by a united party that presents an intelligent reasonably moderate candidate that addresses climate change (in a non-hysterical manner), jobs, infrastructure, affordable college and health care.
Except impeachment proceedings aren't limited in scope the way that Mueller was.Sure. Polling suggests that anyone not already committed in their vote doesn't care about any of the Russia stuff. It only moved the needle way back in March, 2016 when Trump fired Comey, by about 5 points. He's never really gotten it back, but he hasn't lost any more over it either. No other revelation, and there have been tons, including now the Mueller report, is moving that needle. Lots of people think it's important, but those people already aren't going to vote for Trump.
If swing voters don't care about it they will see the process as a distraction and as fundamentally political, and hence will turn on the dems.
The counter to that would be that it would energize the dem base for higher turnout, but I think we're at a diminishing return on that. Our base hates Trump so much already that we're going to get high turnout whether we impeach or not.
You think more or less Democrats will be motivated if the current crop of elected Democrats don't bother to impeach or they will be more or less motivated if the current crop of Democrats opt to impeach but are unsuccessful due to Republicans in the senate?
You think more or less Democrats will be motivated if the current crop of elected Democrats don't bother to impeach or they will be more or less motivated if the current crop of Democrats opt to impeach but are unsuccessful due to Republicans in the senate?
Democrats understand the idea of a moral imperative even if you don't.
Wtf! I've been saying the same thing you have!