Importance of education overated?

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: rchiu
There will always be jobs that doesn't need diploma, and there will always be others that need one. If you don't have a diploma, your option will be more limited. I am sure you can make 6 figures with just hard work and the right opportunities, but again you may not. With a diploma, you will have more doors open to you and more opportunities for you to make the best of it.

You're absolutely correct. School can be very valuable, but it's not the requirement for life so many in this thread continue to insist upon. A person can be very successful without a college degree if they so choose.

It's as if those who hold degrees are intimidated by successful people who don't. Jealousy perhaps? Or maybe they're just snobs, and angry that their years in school don't automatically make them better than everybody else?

Of course a person can be successful without a college degree. But out of people without a college degree the percentage who are as successful as you or the OP is much smaller than the percentage of successful college graduates. A degree certainly doesn't guarantee success and the lack of a degree does not guarantee failure. But in both cases, the odds are increased.

On average, a college graduate has a better shot at life than someone who did not graduate. There will always be outliers who buck those average, but those are exceptions. It's absolutely fantastic that you and the OP have done well. That says a lot about your determination and innate intellect. However you are not typical cases.

Choosing to forgo a degree is a risk in today's employment market. That's a fact. Sometimes people can get past that and do well, but on the whole that's not common.

ZV

 

[imported_Imp]

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: Bryophyte
If you're only 30, how old are your kids that one of them is already thinking about dropping out of school?

not to criticize the OP about this, but methinks it is related to his reasons for dropping out of High School, and less that he thought school was "worthless and overrated."

Wow, I completely missed that point.

 

[thomsbrain]

A BA barely gets your foot in the door for any white-collar job.

Yeah, you can make respectable money driving a garbage truck or turning wrenches if you work hard, but if you want to work with your brain instead of your back and you don't already have 10 years of experience in your field, you'll need a degree these days to even get call-backs on your resume. I've been in my field for two years and I've already hit a dead-end with my BA. A Master's degree is required before you can be considered for promotions. No amount of hard work or experience will overcome the lack of those letters after your name.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: ScottyB

Originally posted by: BoberFett
I make six figures as an IT executive and never went to school. I worked my way up from an entry level programmer and was making 60K/yr by the time I was 22. My wife has a four year degree and makes about 35K per year doing data entry. Hard work and determination do go a long way, despite what the naysayers in this thread insist.

Sure, education is never a bad thing. But it's definitely overrated nowadays, especially when compared to the cost.

All reliable data contradicts what you say.

By reliable you mean ATOT, no doubt.

Edit: Just how does that reliable data (100% scientific, I'm sure) account for the difference between determination and education? Will a determined person lacking a college degree definitely fail? Can someone with no determination come out of college and shoot up the ladder of life?

Please, explain to me in succinct terms how one can get by without. Being a lowly high-school grad, I'm obviously not able to comprehend that reliable data as well as you are.

Just for more anecdotal data (not reliable like yours I'm afraid, Mr. College Graduate) one very good friend of mine never finished college. He spent about seven years taking various classes but never bothered to finish. I helped him get started on computers and he owned his own PC repair business for a few years that did pretty well. He stopped doing that when a small stock brokerage offered him quite a bit of money to be their systems admin.

Another good friend went to community college for a couple years but doesn't have a degree. He started at the bottom doing work he loved, working on computer games. Since teaching himself how to program he has worked on Orgeon Trail, Paint Shop Pro, Golden Tee Golf, and is now working on upcoming Wii title and works closely with Nintendo.

Damn, I just can't understand how all these people get anywhere in life without that framed piece of paper. Somebody had better set us straight and we can all go back to a life in fast food.

If BoberFett had a college degree, his ceiling would be a c-level exec. However, because he "only" has a HS diploma, his success is limited in the corporate world and would need to rely on entrepreneurialism to break through his glass ceiling.

But it sounds like you're content with where you are now. So no a college education is not necessary, but basically it all depends on what a person's aspirations are.

 

[jonks]

We have too many people in school as it is. Someone has to pick up the garbage.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
A BA barely gets your foot in the door for any white-collar job.

Yeah, you can make respectable money driving a garbage truck or turning wrenches if you work hard, but if you want to work with your brain instead of your back and you don't already have 10 years of experience in your field, you'll need a degree these days to even get call-backs on your resume. I've been in my field for two years and I've already hit a dead-end with my BA. A Master's degree is required before you can be considered for promotions. No amount of hard work or experience will overcome the lack of those letters after your name.

It's because of idiots like this that I'm even bothering to post in this thread.

You need a Master's to get promoted? Fools like you are the reason tuition is skyrocketing. You've bought their sales pitch. And if you think schools aren't a business like any other, you're an even bigger fool.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
If you don't realize that one can improve their opportunities at being successful from increasing their education, I feel bad for you and your family.

Don't feel bad for us, I'm not the one who lacks basic comprehension skills. You're the one with lots of education but it clearly did nothing for you.

Sorry but you're the one that couldn't comprehend my post. Your lack of education really does comes thru. I never mentioned a piece of paper but you seem fixated on it, again, a self-esteem issue.

OP

Keep your children away from whatever school this imbecile attended.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
A BA barely gets your foot in the door for any white-collar job.

Yeah, you can make respectable money driving a garbage truck or turning wrenches if you work hard, but if you want to work with your brain instead of your back and you don't already have 10 years of experience in your field, you'll need a degree these days to even get call-backs on your resume. I've been in my field for two years and I've already hit a dead-end with my BA. A Master's degree is required before you can be considered for promotions. No amount of hard work or experience will overcome the lack of those letters after your name.

It's because of idiots like this that I'm even bothering to post in this thread.

You need a Master's to get promoted? Fools like you are the reason tuition is skyrocketing. You've bought their sales pitch. And if you think schools aren't a business like any other, you're an even bigger fool.

Maybe he's in engineering and they just have a huge circle jerk for advanced degrees? Either that or he works for a pretty dumb company.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: joshsquall
Education is about making your life easier. My 4 year degree got me a less physically demanding job with a higher salary than someone doing manual labor.

Most people have a less physically demanding job with a higher salary than someone doing manual labor. That has nothing to do with school, though.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: tasmanian
The workplace has changed alot since 15 years ago. Your going to need a degree.

You're probably someone who didn't attend grammar class. You'll need to go a lot to make up for it now.

 

[hanoverphist]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
A BA barely gets your foot in the door for any white-collar job.

Yeah, you can make respectable money driving a garbage truck or turning wrenches if you work hard, but if you want to work with your brain instead of your back and you don't already have 10 years of experience in your field, you'll need a degree these days to even get call-backs on your resume. I've been in my field for two years and I've already hit a dead-end with my BA. A Master's degree is required before you can be considered for promotions. No amount of hard work or experience will overcome the lack of those letters after your name.

It's because of idiots like this that I'm even bothering to post in this thread.

You need a Master's to get promoted? Fools like you are the reason tuition is skyrocketing. You've bought their sales pitch. And if you think schools aren't a business like any other, you're an even bigger fool.

ive seen a few corp offices that require a degree for middle management. doesnt even matter the degree, related or not. one of the infamous managers at my ex wifes company (top end gas company) had a degree in sandwich making. literally. she had it hanging in her office. she was a moron, bully and ended up getting caught stealing from the company, diddling a few VPs trying to get ahead and other fun charges. my point is, its not always the schools pushing this crap. the corps have their own requirements, no matter how dumb they may be.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Of course a person can be successful without a college degree. But out of people without a college degree the percentage who are as successful as you or the OP is much smaller than the percentage of successful college graduates. A degree certainly doesn't guarantee success and the lack of a degree does not guarantee failure. But in both cases, the odds are increased.

On average, a college graduate has a better shot at life than someone who did not graduate.

That's true, but it does prompt another question: does the college itself make the person more likely to succeed in life, or did it merely serve as a filter? If someone can't get into college they probably can't do much of anything else. Those who could have attended college but chose not to are grouped in with those who wanted to attend but couldn't.

 

[BrownTown]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: tasmanian
The workplace has changed alot since 15 years ago. Your going to need a degree.

You're probably someone who didn't attend grammar class. You'll need to go a lot to make up for it now.

All I'm gonna say for the grammar nazis here is that if you think the point of school was to get you to write in perfect English then you clearly didn't get much out of school. Pretty much everything I write could be gone over by an English teacher and torn to threads, but nobody around here gives a rats ass. And this aint just random emails I'm talking QA records for a nuclear power plant and the grammar is all wrong but guess what the NRC don't care!!

 

[kranky]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
A BA barely gets your foot in the door for any white-collar job.

Yeah, you can make respectable money driving a garbage truck or turning wrenches if you work hard, but if you want to work with your brain instead of your back and you don't already have 10 years of experience in your field, you'll need a degree these days to even get call-backs on your resume. I've been in my field for two years and I've already hit a dead-end with my BA. A Master's degree is required before you can be considered for promotions. No amount of hard work or experience will overcome the lack of those letters after your name.

It's because of idiots like this that I'm even bothering to post in this thread.

You need a Master's to get promoted? Fools like you are the reason tuition is skyrocketing. You've bought their sales pitch. And if you think schools aren't a business like any other, you're an even bigger fool.

Maybe he's in engineering and they just have a huge circle jerk for advanced degrees? Either that or he works for a pretty dumb company.

There are companies which have strict standards in this area and they are certainly not all dumb. I have a friend who is going back for a Masters at age 40 because without it she can't get promoted again. She works for a very successful and well respected company, but that's their rule.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: BrownTown

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: tasmanian
The workplace has changed alot since 15 years ago. Your going to need a degree.

You're probably someone who didn't attend grammar class. You'll need to go a lot to make up for it now.

All I'm gonna say for the grammar nazis here is that if you think the point of school was to get you to write in perfect English then you clearly didn't get much out of school. Pretty much everything I write could be gone over by an English teacher and torn to threads, but nobody around here gives a rats ass. And this aint just random emails I'm talking QA records for a nuclear power plant and the grammar is all wrong but guess what the NRC don't care!!

All I'm going to say to the people with poor grammar is that if they attended school and they still write like that I feel sorry for them. I don't expect people to outdo the Constitution with every post, but if they can't even spell properly it reflects poorly on them. They may not be stupid, but it sure makes them look lazy.

The more intelligent members of this forum write like they're the more intelligent members of this forum.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Of course a person can be successful without a college degree. But out of people without a college degree the percentage who are as successful as you or the OP is much smaller than the percentage of successful college graduates. A degree certainly doesn't guarantee success and the lack of a degree does not guarantee failure. But in both cases, the odds are increased.

On average, a college graduate has a better shot at life than someone who did not graduate.

That's true, but it does prompt another question: does the college itself make the person more likely to succeed in life, or did it merely serve as a filter? If someone can't get into college they probably can't do much of anything else. Those who could have attended college but chose not to are grouped in with those who wanted to attend but couldn't.

That's an interesting statistical point. However, it is a bit of a chicken and the egg problem. Not to mention the fact that it's not all about ability. There are a lot of highly able people who never do well in the working world because they lack the ability to stick with jobs when they get boring. The kind of people who start strong, but then have 6 jobs in 6 years never really advancing much but jumping from company to company just to try to keep their interest.

Still, you make a good point.

ZV

 

[IamDavid]

Thanks everyone. Very interesting read.

Here is a clip sent to me from another member. interesting too. From an old movie
Bells of St. Mary's w/ Bing Crosby and Ingrid Bergman about Education.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MctafuXLho

 

[BrownTown]

Originally posted by: 91TTZAll I'm going to say to the people with poor grammar is that if they attended school and they still write like that I feel sorry for them. I don't expect people to outdo the Constitution with every post, but if they can't even spell properly it reflects poorly on them. They may not be stupid, but it sure makes them look lazy.

if not wanting to grammar check comments i make on internet message boards makes me lazy than so be it, but everyone understands what i am trying to get across, anything more is just wasting time.

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
The more intelligent members of this forum write like they're the more intelligent members of this forum.

Or maybe you are just a superficial person who equates big words and unbending obedience to rules as a sign of intelligence.

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
I make six figures as an IT executive and never went to school. I worked my way up from an entry level programmer and was making 60K/yr by the time I was 22. My wife has a four year degree and makes about 35K per year doing data entry. Hard work and determination do go a long way, despite what the naysayers in this thread insist.

Sure, education is never a bad thing. But it's definitely overrated nowadays, especially when compared to the cost.

Of which your wife seems to have neither.

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Originally posted by: RKS
I think the biggest issue is that if you make it to middle managment without a degree, you are stuck with that organization. Isn't middle management usually the most vunerable to lay-offs/reductions?

Not only are they more vulnerable to lay-offs and reductions, but they generally suffer from the worst stress and do more work for less money (per hour average) than people above OR below them. They usually can't rise above middle management because they have no degree, but if they go somewhere else, they have to start lower and lose their management perks for the same reason. So they're trapped...

And one thing the anti-education crowd here is forgetting: right or wrong, most upper management types often will not promote somebody without a degree to their own level. They might reward sheer hard work with promotions, but they won't make you a peer if they don't view you as one...

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: IamDavid
Thanks everyone. Very interesting read.

Here is a clip sent to me from another member. interesting too. From an old movie
Bells of St. Mary's w/ Bing Crosby and Ingrid Bergman about Education.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MctafuXLho

Yes, because a fictional exchange taken from a movie produced largely for schmaltz is a great base for a theory on education.

ZV

 

[ModerateRepZero]

To the OP:

I would listen to what Imd, born, brown, and BigJ in particular have to say....here?s why I agree that education is *somewhat* important.

1) As people have already pointed out, the situation has changed since you started working. The job market is different nowadays; more people are in college, and more people are graduating with college degrees. That is a FACT.

Sure, you can succeed without a degree. People like Bill Gates have famously dropped out of college and become rich and famous. *But* what was possible 15+ years ago is more difficult today. Most jobs now request at least a bachelor?s degree, whereas years ago a high school degree was the bare minimum.

But as people have pointed out, just because it?s possible doesn?t mean it?s *probable*. The odds of becoming another Bill Gates or a Ramanujan are quite high. Similarly there have been studies done that show that on average a college graduate will earn more than a high school graduate.

Also, you confuse correlation with causation. With a degree or with not, experience, accomplishments, and connections certainly factor into work success, but it doesn?t mean that people succeeded *because* they didn?t go to college. I?ll echo what someone else said that without a college degree, a job applicant is already handicapping themselves; it can be overcome but it not only means fewer options (can?t apply to jobs requiring a master?s or bachelors), but also means they have to work harder and explain themselves better in work promotions and/or job hunting process.

2) People have said that a degree/college prestige matters when you get a first job. Once you build up your experience/connections it doesn?t matter as much. Another reason a college degree matters is that it leads to other opportunities; people with a variety of bachelor?s degree have been accepted to law school, for example.

It seems to me that a college degree is almost the equivalent of HS SATs. People can reasonably disagree on how useful standardized test scores are in college admissions and predictive of college performance/success. But there?s no question that at the present time most colleges require some sort of standardized benchmark to judge applicants equally (a 3.0 isn?t impressive if it?s on a 5.0 gpa scale versus a 4.0 unweighted gpa scale, for example).

And another fact is that while you personally may not agree with the importance of an educational degree, most employers will expect some sort of accomplishment or track record. And the college degree is, however watered down it might be, a piece of paper signifying that you met (minimum) educational standards of a higher institution and presumably have a set of marketable skills/knowledge. You?re not going to get a job arguing with a prospective employer telling they?re idiots for *only* wanting to hire college graduates if that is what it says on its resume.

 

[ModerateRepZero]

To Bober:

Congratulations on being successful. However, I take issue with your belittling people who have degrees and accusing us of self-esteem, jealousy, idiocy etc. You can argue on how important a master?s degree is if your job is digging ditches, and not in a management blue collar position, but you can?t dispute that some people still pay attention to, if not obsess over, college degrees or college prestige. Google still hires lawyers who came from a top tier law school, and Donald Trump stated in one of his books that some people were impressed by his Wharton business degree. All things considered he was (quite) glad that he went there.

Certainly with more people with bachelor?s you could almost see the flood of graduates as ?degree inflation? where people have a piece of paper that may not necessarily translate into jobs, but there?s also validity in the idea that you?re at a disadvantage if you?re competing against people who have a degree.

You?re right, school isn?t a necessity?.but the vast majority of people aren?t geniuses or likely to get rich gambling, or receiving a financial windfall. It?s like trying to make money in the stock market. It?s not difficult for someone to make (a little) money in one transaction or in the short term. But making money over the long term and with more people competing with you is quite difficult.

To put it another way, your sample size (the individuals you?re basing your knowledge on) is too small to base any conclusion that a college degree isn?t needed for the vast majority of people to get a job/workplace promotion. Everyone knows that a two sided coin will give you a 50% chance of getting heads or tails each time you flip. But you can get heads 2 or more times in a row over a few tries; that doesn?t make the 50% heads/tails chance invalid, particularly as you flip the coin hundreds or thousands of times and the results even out.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Lothar

Originally posted by: BoberFett
I make six figures as an IT executive and never went to school. I worked my way up from an entry level programmer and was making 60K/yr by the time I was 22. My wife has a four year degree and makes about 35K per year doing data entry. Hard work and determination do go a long way, despite what the naysayers in this thread insist.

Sure, education is never a bad thing. But it's definitely overrated nowadays, especially when compared to the cost.

Of which your wife seems to have neither.

I won't argue with you there. She has a BS from a well-known (around these parts anyway) art school and is a really talented artist. She could probably be pulling in some pretty good money and doing incredible design work but she really has zero drive. I love my wife to death, but it does sadden me that she chooses not to do something she's really gifted at and stays in a dead-end data entry job.

 

[imported_Lothar]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Lothar

Originally posted by: BoberFett
I make six figures as an IT executive and never went to school. I worked my way up from an entry level programmer and was making 60K/yr by the time I was 22. My wife has a four year degree and makes about 35K per year doing data entry. Hard work and determination do go a long way, despite what the naysayers in this thread insist.

Sure, education is never a bad thing. But it's definitely overrated nowadays, especially when compared to the cost.

Of which your wife seems to have neither.

I won't argue with you there. She has a BS from a well-known (around these parts anyway) art school and is a really talented artist. She could probably be pulling in some pretty good money and doing incredible design work but she really has zero drive. I love my wife to death, but it does sadden me that she chooses not to do something she's really gifted at and stays in a dead-end data entry job.

Because being an artist doesn't really pay much unless you're Picasso.
Is she only working her job because she wants to feel like she's actually contributing something and doesn't want you to shoulder all the burden?

Your wife got a degree in one of the stupid majors? :Q
Fine art, film history, liberal arts, social science, *insert something stupid here*...
No wonder you consider getting an education to be useless. I now completely understand where you're coming from and agree with you.

I wouldn't pay tens of thousands of dollars every year for 4 years to major in those stupid courses either.
Getting a degree fine art, film history, liberal arts, social science, *insert something stupid here* is about as useless as not getting a degree at all in the 1st place.