In Ukraine, the US and Europe have limited options

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Broheim

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2011
4,592
2
81
Really? News to me. Denmark is viable and sustainable in isolation? External and neighbouring consequences can't effect you?

No, Broheim, in any domino effect, Russia can dramatically destabilise any state in Europe if it so chooses.

Russia can only get to Denmark through the EU, going after the EU would mean going after their biggest trading partner, the US and China's biggest export market. Any such attempt would completely cripple the Russian economy with nowhere to turn. The EU is the world's biggest economy and can take the hit by turning elsewhere, Russia can't, Putin is bluffing and bullying his neighbors as usual and all it would take was for someone to call him out on it. A peaceful resolution would be found faster than the Russian press could put a spin on it.
 

5150Joker

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2002
5,559
0
71
www.techinferno.com
The Israelis that wrote the article cited by OP should know all too well what happens when aggressors like Putin are placated. It led to the Jews being put in gas chambers but I guess they forget that lesson they constantly espouse when it comes to Israeli interests (getting Russian cooperation on Iran).
 

StinkyPinky

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2002
6,831
878
126
Well played Putin, well played. He's clearly smarter than the leaders the west has, which has let itself become dependent on products made and supplied by renegade nation states.

Russia has won this, but there could be a silver lining here. Hopefully this bumps the EU out of their complacency regarding oil supply from Russia, and hopefully this bumps the US into understanding that Russia may have a new flag but it's still the same old stuff we've been seeing since WW2
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,577
4,659
136
Well played Putin, well played. He's clearly smarter than the leaders the west has, which has let itself become dependent on products made and supplied by renegade nation states.

Russia has won this, but there could be a silver lining here. Hopefully this bumps the EU out of their complacency regarding oil supply from Russia, and hopefully this bumps the US into understanding that Russia may have a new flag but it's still the same old stuff we've been seeing since WW2



You speak as if this is the end game, when it is simply the opening gambit.

Would you mind waiting until the west has time to react before declaring Russia the winner?
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,371
14
61
You speak as if this is the end game, when it is simply the opening gambit.

Would you mind waiting until the west has time to react before declaring Russia the winner?

The West has reacted. Kerry has said that Russia might might be allowed to host the Gwhateverthefucknumbertheyareonnow. Oh the humanity!

If we don't stand up to him very soon with a very strong show of force, we are going to have to fight another world war. Threatening (not even doing it) to not invite him to dinner just won't cut it.
 

mikegg

Golden Member
Jan 30, 2010
1,815
445
136
The West has reacted. Kerry has said that Russia might might be allowed to host the Gwhateverthefucknumbertheyareonnow. Oh the humanity!

If we don't stand up to him very soon with a very strong show of force, we are going to have to fight another world war. Threatening (not even doing it) to not invite him to dinner just won't cut it.
Let's start firing nukes at Russia then. It's bound to happen. Let's just end it now.
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
18,404
4,967
136
Another reason to use other energy sources than fossil fuels. Energy independence from hostile states.
 

StinkyPinky

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2002
6,831
878
126
The Russian military took up residence in Crimea more than 200 years ago, when Catherine the Great built a naval base at Sevastopol.

After the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991, Russia and Ukraine tussled repeatedly over dividing up the Black Sea Fleet based there. Today, Russia rents its Sevastopol base from Ukraine, where it has a presence better suited to bullying small neighbours than fighting a real war, according to Mark Galeotti, author of Russian Security and Paramilitary Forces Since 1991.

Galeotti, a professor at New York University who blogs about security issues, answered a series of questions about Russia's military.

Q: How strong is Russia's Black Sea Fleet?

A: As a war-fighting force, it's not particularly impressive. Its main vessel was basically built to fight other ships and so is only useful in fighting a naval war. It's got the Moskva, an aging guided missile cruiser; a large anti-submarine warfare cruiser - very dated; a destroyer and two frigates, which are more versatile; landing ships; and a diesel attack submarine. It's not a particularly powerful force. The Italian navy alone could easily destroy it.

Q: How capable is Russia's military overall?

A: It's moderately competent. It's not at the level of the American, or British, or German military, but it's better than in the 1990s. The [Russian] military is good at bullying small neighbours, but it would not be effective against NATO. It would not be able to defeat China.

Q: Why was it effective against Georgia?

A: The Black Sea Fleet had some value against Georgia because it was fighting a small navy. The Russian military could roll into Ukraine, but it would be up for a fight. The Ukrainians are rather more ready than the Georgians.

Q: What does Russia want in Crimea?

A: If Russia wanted to conquer the place, they could conquer the place. But what would it gain by claiming formal control over this region? It doesn't add up to me as being a takeover. It's a martial and heavy-handed political manoeuvre to make sure Kiev considers Russia's interests.

Q: Where are the Russian bases?

A: The main one is the fleet headquarters and naval infantry brigade headquarters at Sevastopol. There are four coastal missile regiments, four different bases. There are at least a dozen active bases on the Crimea. Some are just communication towers. Others are real bases. For example, there are several air bases.

Q: How is the Russian deployment regulated?

A: The treaty between Ukraine and Russia limits the total size. Russia can't just add another ship to the fleet. They can't arbitrarily attach more units.

Q: Can you describe the troops?

A: The 810 Naval Infantry Brigade has 2,500 marines. They're not elite, but they are better than average. They acquitted themselves well in Georgia and fighting pirates off Somalia. There are also some naval special forces. It's hard to be sure, but maybe 200 to 300. They may not be Green Berets, but they're pretty good. There's a large Black Sea Naval Air Force and ancillary groups - technical, security, administrative - you can put a gun in many of their hands, if need be. If you need people to block a road, they can do it.

Q: Are troops often seen on the highways in Crimea?

A: There's nothing to stop them from moving troops around. You have slosh back and forth twice a year because of conscription. The sight of military personnel on the road is not unusual as they move between bases. And obviously they move back and forth to Russia.

Q: How many bases does Russia have outside its borders?

A: They have a presence in Cuba. It's not really a base. It's a way station. And Tartus, in Syria. They have no other external bases.

- Washington Post

Thought this was interesting.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
Hey guys, don't wish for war or for other disasters due to your political biases. Your favorite political party or your favorite politician isn't going to help you or anyone else. They are in it for themselves. Stop rooting for politicians. Stop rooting for political parties. This is one cause of wars.
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
The West has reacted. Kerry has said that Russia might might be allowed to host the Gwhateverthefucknumbertheyareonnow. Oh the humanity!

If we don't stand up to him very soon with a very strong show of force, we are going to have to fight another world war. Threatening (not even doing it) to not invite him to dinner just won't cut it.

ROFL @ show of force. Oh my. We're all a bit eager for more war, aren't we?

Let's just bomb the whole world and be done with it ... right?
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
The Israelis that wrote the article cited by OP should know all too well what happens when aggressors like Putin are placated. It led to the Jews being put in gas chambers but I guess they forget that lesson they constantly espouse when it comes to Israeli interests (getting Russian cooperation on Iran).

You're treating the symptoms and not the root cause. There have been tyrants before and will be in the future. Doesn't matter if you kill one tyrant today. More will arrive tomorrow.

The problem is the human mind and the way he thinks. Change that and everything will work out.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,816
83
91
we could cripple Russia by preventing the oligarchs from accessing their drug and kickback money stored abroad, but they're betting that there's no Western appetite for losing access to the billions involved.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
It's a European situation that should be handled by Europeans. US should keep its hands out. We're busy pivoting to Asia. If Russia wants to take over all of Europe, they're welcome to hold on to the emerging third world.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,982
3,318
126
I was wondering that myself when I read that. I don't think he realizes that Obama can't be re-elected. US presidents can only serve two terms! lol
__________________
that's how fear mongers view things....they purposely leave out the important stuff...
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,982
3,318
126
Russia can only get to Denmark through the EU, going after the EU would mean going after their biggest trading partner, the US and China's biggest export market. Any such attempt would completely cripple the Russian economy with nowhere to turn. The EU is the world's biggest economy and can take the hit by turning elsewhere, Russia can't, Putin is bluffing and bullying his neighbors as usual and all it would take was for someone to call him out on it. A peaceful resolution would be found faster than the Russian press could put a spin on it.
hardly there is no shred of evidence that would be the case. Denmark is not untouchable...yet we all know the Danish people don`t have the balls to do anything this adventurous...
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,982
3,318
126
Thought this was interesting.
Interesting but highly inaccurate....
Let me play devils advocate -- if the world thought that as a superpower your navy was rotting and decaying.....your submarine fleet was doing the same ands there was discord in your military...would you really want the world to know that things are not as they seem? Think about it.....
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,577
4,659
136
We have reacted...there will be no troops.....


That was never our only option. And no, the U.S. and the rest of the world have only begun to discuss how they plan to react.

These things don't resolve themselves overnight.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,371
14
61
ROFL @ show of force. Oh my. We're all a bit eager for more war, aren't we?

Let's just bomb the whole world and be done with it ... right?

I love how you are the second person to launch the hyperbole straw man.

No intelligent answer? Let's pretend he said to nuke the world!
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126

So we need to show them our big guns just to let them know? It's not like they have any idea how much military might the US has. But what if some accident occurs? Some sort of freak accident? How would we know what might happen?

I'm not trying to be difficult, rudeguy. But these sorts of things can get out of hand. We humans can only control so much. Sometimes, things just "happen."
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
We have a lot of options. It's just that we're limited by our political will and that of ours allies.

Fern
 
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