In Ukraine, the US and Europe have limited options

[rudeguy]

So we need to show them our big guns just to let them know? It's not like they have any idea how much military might the US has. But what if some accident occurs? Some sort of freak accident? How would we know what might happen?

I'm not trying to be difficult, rudeguy. But these sorts of things can get out of hand. We humans can only control so much. Sometimes, things just "happen."

You do know that you sound exactly like most of the world in the late 1930's? We tried it your way before. It didn't end so well.

 

[raildogg]

You do know that you sound exactly like most of the world in the late 1930's? We tried it your way before. It didn't end so well.

So then you do have plans for warfare then? I mean, if conditions are right?

Are you saying that the current situation is similar to WW2? Were there 9 countries with nuclear weapons during WW2? Was Germany surrounded by strong militaries? Was the world as close to the brink of total destruction as it is today?

Man has perfected the art of killing and is not satisfied. He wants more. Let's hope this current situation doesn't escalate into something big. But then again, people are violent little creatures so who knows what might happen.

 

[BladeVenom]

Short version- Putin outsmarted Obama.

A bagel could outsmart Obama.

 

[raildogg]

A bagel could outsmart Obama.

So you guys must know what is going in the back rooms and what goes on in high government positions. I mean, you certainly sound like you know the whole deal. Or did you hear about this? From the news? From your local radio station?

This Obama fellow sure is very well known. I mean, people don't know their friends and relatives as much as they know this guy. They know his complete identity, his motives, the way his mind works, etc. They know when he wins and when he loses.

So this means that 60 million people in the US are Obama experts. Such a level of expertise.

 

[Abwx]

"You just don't in the 21st Century behave in 19th Century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped-up pretext," Mr Kerry told the CBS program Face the Nation.

Was 2003 in the 19th century.??....

A big lol , Kerry is so stupid...

 

[5150Joker]

You're treating the symptoms and not the root cause. There have been tyrants before and will be in the future. Doesn't matter if you kill one tyrant today. More will arrive tomorrow.

The problem is the human mind and the way he thinks. Change that and everything will work out.

Not everyone can be Gandhi and in affairs such as this, peaceful demonstrations would do absolutely squat. What do you suggest the world do? Sit back and let criminals like Putin get away with snatching territory? Where does the world draw the line? The Russians tried with Afghanistan and got a bloody nose the first time but now that the country has been weakened by decades of internal strife + US intervention, what is to stop Putin from making a second adventure to correct their first defeat? After all, Karzai hasn't signed a bilateral defense agreement with the US so Putin could move in overnight and there's dick all the world could do about it.

He could then start moving in ethnic Russians like they did to the Tartars and wiping out the natives. Do you suggest the world keep taking your bullshit stance and just sit back?

Obama and the rest of the NATO countries need to show Putin that he can't fuck around by sending carriers right next to Ukraine and maybe even put some boots on the ground. If Putin wants to engage NATO, unleash the overpriced F35's (they gotta justify their cost somehow right?) + F22 on his ass. Russia can't match the US technologically and would get its ass kicked. He won't bother with using nukes, he's not THAT crazy...yet.

 

[raildogg]

Was 2003 in the 19th century.??....

A big lol , Kerry is so stupid...

Kerry is a politician looking out for his own good, his career and his dreams. He will say whatever needs to be said to help himself. Unfortunately, many, if not most people look up to these so-called leaders.

 

[fskimospy]

So you guys must know what is going in the back rooms and what goes on in high government positions. I mean, you certainly sound like you know the whole deal. Or did you hear about this? From the news? From your local radio station?

This Obama fellow sure is very well known. I mean, people don't know their friends and relatives as much as they know this guy. They know his complete identity, his motives, the way his mind works, etc. They know when he wins and when he loses.

So this means that 60 million people in the US are Obama experts. Such a level of expertise.

They don't know anything about what's happening here, but they are rooting for Obama to 'lose' because they are so driven by hatred of him that they would prefer to see the US worse off so long as it means that Obama is worse off. Remember when conservatives accused liberals of 'rooting for failure' in Iraq? I do not see how things like this are any different than what they accused others of.

We have more ways to hurt Putin than you might think. We have the ability to move NATO forces into Eastern Europe. We have the ability to freeze assets held by other members of the kleptocracy that runs Russia. We have the ability to boot them out of the G8. Etc, etc. I find it unlikely that the west is willing to let Putin get away with this in the same way that they did with Georgia, and he may come to regret this move.

I guess we will see.

 

[Jhhnn]

Yanukovych & cronies are just lousy politicians who badly misread the will of the people. The ensuing protests & violence invite Russian intervention.

The US & the EU? The EU should have known better than to meddle in the Russian/ Ukrainian relationship so as to destabilize it. It's a no-win situation for Ukrainians.

 

[Hugo Drax]

You do know that you sound exactly like most of the world in the late 1930's? We tried it your way before. It didn't end so well.

Actually it ended great for America. We became #1 and it got us out of the great depression and revitalized our economy like never before.

So the smart thing would be to repeat what we did last time. pull out of the world, let them blow each other up. We come in like heroes and end the war, everyone buys from us because we are the only nation with functional capacity for output.

 

[senseamp]

Ultimately, the people of Crimea are going to decide Crimea's future, not Russia and not NATO. A referendum is coming on March 30th.

 

[Jmman]

All I know is that missile shield in Eastern Europe sure seems like a good idea now. Putin wants to bring back the glory days of the Soviet Union......

 

[fskimospy]

Actually it ended great for America. We became #1 and it got us out of the great depression and revitalized our economy like never before.

So the smart thing would be to repeat what we did last time. pull out of the world, let them blow each other up. We come in like heroes and end the war, everyone buys from us because we are the only nation with functional capacity for output.

The idea that the US had an economic boom due to exports after WW2 is a pretty common misconception.

Total US exports after WW2 amounted to the low to single digits of GDP. When you think about it, it makes sense. Sure the rest of the world was blown up so they couldn't compete well with our exports, but... since the rest of the world was blown up they also couldn't afford to buy a lot of our exports.

The impact of US exports after the war was simply nowhere close to large enough to account for our growth. It was much more about technology, etc.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Ultimately, the people of Crimea are going to decide Crimea's future, not Russia and not NATO. A referendum is coming on March 30th.

wishful thinking....

 

[fskimospy]

All I know is that missile shield in Eastern Europe sure seems like a good idea now. Putin wants to bring back the glory days of the Soviet Union......

The missile shield in Eastern Europe was not designed to defend against a Russian missile attack, nor could it. They could easily overwhelm such a system/attack the interceptors/etc.

The missile systems over there were intended to hem in Iran and such.

 

[Darwin333]

Well played Putin, well played. He's clearly smarter than the leaders the west has, which has let itself become dependent on products made and supplied by renegade nation states.

Russia has won this, but there could be a silver lining here. Hopefully this bumps the EU out of their complacency regarding oil supply from Russia, and hopefully this bumps the US into understanding that Russia may have a new flag but it's still the same old stuff we've been seeing since WW2

So you think that if Ukraine wasn't a major distributor of nat gas to Europe they would have even more value to the EU and the EU would be willing to go to war with Russia over them???

How else do you suppose the leaders of the west could have "outsmarted" Putin on this?

 

[shady28]

Ultimately, the people of Crimea are going to decide Crimea's future, not Russia and not NATO. A referendum is coming on March 30th.

This is kind of what I'm thinking.

All the media is completely one-side on the entire issue. One thing I've learned is that there is always, always, another side.

Like, how many people are aware that Crimea was annexed into Ukraine in 1954, and before that it had been part of.... Russia?

This, from 2012:

http://history.stackexchange.com/questions/4418/why-did-the-ussr-give-crimea-to-ukraine


Another tidbit from Wikipedia :

"On 24 August 2009, anti-Ukrainian demonstrations were held in Crimea by ethnic Russian residents. Sergei Tsekov (of the Russian Bloc[35] and then deputy speaker of the Crimean parliament[36]) said then that he hoped that Russia would treat the Crimea the same way as it had treated South Ossetia and Abkhazia."


It seems to me that the untold story here is that of a once independent region, annexed into Ukraine, with very strong Russian ties.

It would be like the USA giving Texas to Mexico, then Mexico deciding it was going to snub the USA and link up with Cuba. Texans wouldn't be too happy about it.

Yes that's a bit dramatic, but I think there is another side to this story - one which our brain dead, pathetic, bought and paid for western media is not presenting.

 

[Darwin333]

The West has reacted. Kerry has said that Russia might might be allowed to host the Gwhateverthefucknumbertheyareonnow. Oh the humanity!

If we don't stand up to him very soon with a very strong show of force, we are going to have to fight another world war. Threatening (not even doing it) to not invite him to dinner just won't cut it.

So...... We should devote a metric fuckton of military assets and personnel to forcibly move Russia out of Ukraine (unless you are implying that we bluff) in order to AVOID a potential shooting war with them? You gotta be joking, high or both.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Like, how many people are aware that Crimea was annexed into Ukraine in 1954, and before that it had been part of.... Russia?

really old news, especially if your a lover of history...I mean really really old news...

 

[biostud]

 

[senseamp]

wishful thinking....

It is, if you are thinking it's only Crimea and if only big bad Russian troops leave, and NATO comes in, it's all going to be fine.

Donetsk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-DnpVioTXo

Kharkiv:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPIG8sCOIHM

The east is not accepting the new regime in Kiev, just like the west didn't accept eastern supported regime before before. For now, the protests in the east are far more civilized than they were in Kiev, no Molotov cocktails thrown at the cops, but I wouldn't take that for granted. They are learning from Maidan, very quickly. Think long and hard if you want US/NATO troops in the middle of that mess.

 

[TreVader]

Whenever people start talking about the former USSR and Russia all I can think of are the Nod in command and conquer red alert. That's what the russians are, they're the Nod.



The Nods iron curtain is invincible. Ukraine shall become Nod.

 

[Veliko]

You do know that you sound exactly like most of the world in the late 1930's? We tried it your way before. It didn't end so well.

Whenever someone trots out this line, the only thing it proves is that the poster doesn't know any history prior to the 1930s.

 

[AViking]

I was at the bank yesterday and someone had thrown away Russian Rubles. Laid them and some minor coins from a couple other countries on top of a garbage can. I thought it was kinda funny. I grabbed them and put them with my money collection. Odds are they had been to Russia and those other countries recently and were just cleaning out their pockets/wallet but the timing couldn't have been better as the Ruble goes to shit.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Think long and hard if you want US/NATO troops in the middle of that mess.

I don`t know where you read that I wanted any troop involvement at all....
My own feeling is that it is way too late to go there....perhaps NATO should have had a presence sooner.....yet had NATO had a presence or even attempted to put troops in the Ukraine I am very sure Russia would have responded with an over whelming force....

No where in any of my posts did I favor troops on the ground......dory to disappoint...